U/R/g Gro

[Hanni]

I know that there was a thread already posted for Dryads + Dragonauts but I felt that this list pushed the deck more into a Threshold-esque aggro/control Gro deck rather than the pure pump focus so I decided to post a new thread for it. If a mod feels that this list should be moved to the other thread, I apologize for posting a new thread for it.

U/R/g Gro

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Wee Dragonauts

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lava Dart
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
3 Pyroclasm
1 Shattering Spree
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Loaming Shaman
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

It's basically red Thresh with Gro guys instead of Werebear/Enforcer and a few other minor tweaks. It's pretty fun... the creature base is a bit more fragile but far more explosive and have a much greater resilience to graveyard hate.

The Mongooses lend stability to the Gro creature base and give the deck a great 1 drop to round out the curve. As the only Threshold creature, they render most grave hate less than awesome. G for a 3/3 untargetable is just so beastly that it really needs to be in the deck.

Dryads are a solid beater that can get fairly large if unchecked since the deck runs 17 cantrip/dig effects.

Dragonauts is the creature that I think really makes Gro a contender. Gro was attempted way back when and deemed inferior to UGx Threshold but I think Dragonauts give alot of strength to Gro. They are extremely explosive. 3cc for a 1/3 flyer may seem subpar, but they can do massive amounts of damage. Comparable to Mystic Enforcer, Dragonauts are 1cc less, not Threshold dependant, pitchable to FoW, and have the potential to swing for much more. For example: Brainstorm, Lightning Bolt, Lava Dart, flash Lava Dart and Daze in response = 11/3 flyer and 4 damage to opponent (15 damage). This quickens the clock of the typical UGr Threshold immensely.

The cantrip and burn base seems pretty standard, with Lava Dart being the only real eyesore. The reason for Lava Dart is because it pumps Dryads +2/+2, Dragonauts +4/+0, and it can be used as a sort of Fire//Ice... except it doesn't have to split 2 damage at the same time.

The sideboard is just something I threw together real quick.

I think this is a very fun alternative to Threshold.

Thoughts?

[Aggro_zombies]

I had a deck like this a while back, although I used Burning-Tree Shaman instead of the Dragonauts. The Shaman is definitely something to look into, as you don't have any activated abilities other than fetches and he can go in for 4-5 damage against Goblins just from his ability alone. And, as a 3/4 red and green guy, he can block Piledriver or kill any Goblin without being in much danger himself.

[Hanni]

Last time I checked, Burning Tree Shaman sucks when you run 8 fetchlands. BTS doesn't even have evasion. If I wanted a different 3cc drop, I'd run Serendib Efreet. Why would I want to drop Dragonauts though? They are my combo-finish card. It's kinda like playing Tog in that respect. I really like being able to pull 15 damage turns out of nowhere for the win occasionally. Dragonauts is busted in this sort of deck and I'm suprised it hadn't been discovered for UGr Threshold and URg Gro sooner.

The deck now becomes aggro/control/combo and has the ability to hybridize and transform based on the situation. This improves quite a few matchups considerably (like board control, for example).

I never really understood why red Thresh isn't popular. It makes the Goblins matchup much better, which is a deck that UGw struggles to deal with. The combo matchup isn't really worsened too bad... you lose Meddling Mage but gain burn to quicken the clock, you still have Stifle, and Dragonauts gives the deck the possibility of turn 4-5 kills.

If Dryads are less than spectacular, they can easily be replaced by Werebear. I just feel that the ability to be less dependant on Threshold with Dryad lends alot to the mirror (UGw Thresh), since opposing grave hate isn't nearly as effective as your own. Dryad isn't really that bad in a deck with so much cantrip/dig... I can see why Werebear is better usually (can come down instantly as a 4/4), but this deck seems to support the Dryad pretty well since the synergy for Gro is already there for Dragonauts. I also think Dragonauts is great vs the mirror... if they can't deal with it fast enough, they pretty much lose.

[Zilla]

I never really understood why red Thresh isn't popular.

It actually is popular in Germany. As a matter of fact, up until recently it was pretty much the only build they ever played. Now they're playing UGrw, but still.

The main reason UGr never really caught on here is because UGw is favored against it in the mirror. I agree that it's much much better against Goblins though, and Goblins continues to be the most prevalent deck in the format.

[Hanni]

I realize it's deemed worse for the mirror since StP deals with 4/4's and 6/6's better than burn does. The reason I felt Dryads was worth tested in red Thresh over Werebear was because of the postboard matchup. While your bringing in Loaming Shaman's and/or Crypt's, they have less relevant hate vs you. Not only that, but an unchecked Dryad can be larger than Werebear game 1 (supposing they don't find an StP in time).

Regardless if Dryads does or does not improve the UGw mirror, I still prefer red Thresh/Gro. Dragonauts is just so busted in the deck that I think that in itself lends alot to why I feel the red splash is stronger, aside from the better Goblins matchup.

[Zilla]

Regardless if Dryads does or does not improve the UGw mirror, I still prefer red Thresh/Gro. Dragonauts is just so busted in the deck that I think that in itself lends alot to why I feel the red splash is stronger, aside from the better Goblins matchup.

I don't disagree. I was merely pointing out why there has seemed to be a proclivity for the UGW build over UGR here in the states. I only ever play UGR Thresh myself, both because of its superior Goblins matchup and because I prefer a more aggressive playstyle.

I do like the idea of this deck here. I like the lower reliance on the yard, considering that most decks in the format run grave hate these days, and I like the inclusion of Dragonauts. I've been looking for places to abuse them for a couple months now, and this seems like as good an idea as any. I'm going to give a similar list some playtesting, with minor tweaks to account for my own personal tastes.

[Hanni]

I only ever play UGR Thresh myself, both because of its superior Goblins matchup and because I prefer a more aggressive playstyle.

I prefer the more aggressive approach with Thresh as well. The aggro itself is considered midrange aggro, it just makes sense to run it as G/R Beats. Burn clears the way of blockers while your 3/3's and 4/4's swing unevaded and later it goes to the dome as reach. I think Thresh makes G/R Beats viable in this regard, since typical G/R Beats are either inconsistent or slow and Thresh is neither.

I really do think the lesser grave dependance makes the mirror much better. It also makes the UWb Fish matchup better.

I've liked Dragonauts since I first started testing them in URw Scepter Control. I then tried them in URw Scepter Aggro/Control, UR Dragonauts Combo, and now URg Gro. I think this is the most stable application of the Dragonauts because the deck has other aggro to support it should they fall through. The additional aggro actually helps the Dragonauts combo out more easily, since they require alot less damage to go lethal when they finally do swing. I just love the fact that they give URg Gro a possible turn 4 clock. Actually... vs combo, the deck has a feasible 4 turn clock either by a second turn Dryad or a lethal turn 4 Dragonauts. The Dragonauts almost give the deck a possible nuts draw like Goblins sometimes has and it just wins out of nowhere and there's not much you can do.

As for additional content:

With the current sideboard as is, this is my current board strategy:

Goblins
-1 Portent
-2 Predict
-3 Daze
-2 Counterspell
+3 Pyroclasm
+3 Stifle
+2 Pithing Needle

Basically, 17 cantrip/dig effects is just too much tempo loss vs Goblins. Cutting Predict does remove my only card advantage draw spell but I just find it too hard to set up vs Goblins. Even after cutting cantrip, I still have 14 cantrip/dig spells. This should be more than enough. Daze and Counterspell are both weak vs Goblins... either because of Vial, because Goblins can play around Daze, or because Wasteland/Port make Counterspell hard to cast at a relevant time period. Pyroclasm has amazing synergy with this deck, completely wrecks Goblins, and is so devastating with Stifle for Matron/Ringleader. It also protects vs early land destruction and creature removal. Needle is just icing on the cake.

Threshold
-1 Portent
-3 Lava Dart
+3 Loaming Shaman
+1 Flametongue Kavu

I'm not really sure that dropping a cantrip is the correct play... 1 Lightning Bolt may be better to drop. Lava Dart's aren't as effective against Thresh as they are against Goblins and the additional pump doesn't seem as necessary. Loaming Shaman comes down as a Tormod's Crypt on wheels that can't be Needle'd and Flametongue Kavu deals with Werebear/Grunt. The increased cc and larger threat density seems like it would favor me in the mirror even though they have StP and I don't, but this is speculative at best for right now. However, the fact that Loaming Shaman rapes their yard while their yard hate doesn't affect me very badly seems very strong.

Solidarity
-3 Lava Dart
-2 Predict
+3 Stifle
+2 Pithing Needle

I think the combo matchup maindeck is already really good due to the extremely fast clock but I bring in Stifle and Needle to attack their fetchlands. Attacking fetchlands is savage with G/R Beats because the clock is so much faster than UGw (even Bardo Thresh). Possible turn 4 goldfishes is pretty sick vs Solidarity... especially when you are considering that this is aggro/control and not pure aggro.

That's all I have for now.
Enjoy.

EDIT:

After playtesting the deck, I found Predict underwhelming. I also want to up the Dragonauts count to 3 since I hardly see them when I want them with only 2.

-3 Portent
-2 Predict
+1 Wee Dragonauts
+4 Sleight of Hand

Without Predict, I feel Sleight of Hand is a bit stronger than Portent since it gives me the card now, allowing me to pump my Dragonauts and Dryads better.

[Cait_Sith]

As a note: Without Dryad is is not Gro. You are playing UGr Thresh with Dragonauts Tech.

Other than list looks pretty decent.

[kabal]

Big time necro ... Now with the "Gofy" in full force, I think it is safe to stay removing Dryad would be the right move for this version of Gro. That being said below is the build that I am current testing. At its heart, it is just another Ugr Gro/Threshold with the inclusion of Dragonauts.

// Lands
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wee Dragonauts

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Sleight of Hand

// Artifacts
2 Pithing Needle

[Hanni]

Well, since you necro'd it, here is what I would do now:

U/R/g Gro

Lands (17)
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Wee Dragonauts

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
1 Sensie's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
3 Stifle
4 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensie's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle

The Dragonauts come down as a finisher, since the opponent will usually be low in life by then and the Dragonauts can usually swing for lethal on the turn after it's dropped. Ponder definitely makes the Dragonauts alot stronger since it enables even better cantrip/burn chains. 3cc for a 7/3 (on average) flyer that pitches to FoW seems like a really strong finisher for red Thresh if you ask me. The heavy burn suite (especially in the 1cc range) and the 4th Daze make the deck extremely aggressive. The lone 1-of on Top might look dumb but it's actually not bad. Postboard, the deck has the Counterbalance/Top plan for the mirror (specifically Thresh/w), with some anti combo tools in the sideboard as well.

[lukatron2]

This deck is just UGR thresh or UGR grow. And just for reference dragnoughts were discussed in the UGR thread a while back.

[Hanni]

Here's my second Necro of the week!

I will admit, I'm having fun diggin my old threads up.

Anyway, this deck has gotten alot of new tools since 2007. It probably belongs in the Casual forum these days, but whatever. The U/R Delver thread is the inspiration for this list.

Anyway, here's a list of new cards (since 2007) to spice things up:

• Scalding Tarn
  
• Delver of Secrets
  
• Blistercoil Weird
  
• Nivmagus Elemental
  
• Kiln Fiend
  
• Preordain
  
• Gitaxian Probe
  
• Forked Bolt
  
• Gut Shot
  
• Thunderous Wrath

On that list, Thunderous Wrath is the most humerous, because now the deck can finally be called "Miracle-Gro" for the lulz

A couple of other notable mentions:

• Grim Lavamancer
  
• Fireblast
  
• Price of Progress

There are also a bunch of other interesting cards for lists that go the Nivmagus route... spells with Storm, Replicate, Rebound, Flashback, Retrace, Unearth, etc. I can make a list for the useful ones of these later, if people would like me to do so.

The deck also has more than enough stuff now to completely drop green and go straight U/R.

The moment you all have not been waiting for:

U/R Miracle-Gro

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

Creatures (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Kiln Fiend
2 Wee Dragonauts

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Daze
2 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Forked Bolt
2 Thunderous Wrath
1 Fireblast

Wee Dragonauts may be a bit too far out there to make the cut these days, but if U/R Delver lists can get away with other 3cc creatures like Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique.. it doesn't hurt to try

(If a mod would be so kind as to rename the thread U/R Miracle-Gro, that would be alright by me).

[Koby]

Hanni - This is a blatant necro. UR Delver covers much of what you're trying to achieve with you posted about. Going all-in with Wee Dragonauts/Kiln Fiend is miserable when 1cc spot-removal is rampant in the format. It's strictly worse than Infect Stompy at this point.

[Hanni]

Hanni - This is a blatant necro. UR Delver covers much of what you're trying to achieve with you posted about. Going all-in with Wee Dragonauts/Kiln Fiend is miserable when 1cc spot-removal is rampant in the format. It's strictly worse than Infect Stompy at this point.

The U/R Delver thread ranges from lists with 4 Snapcaster Mage and 3 Venilion Clique, to lists with 4 Stifle and 4 Wasteland, to lists with Goblin Guide and Fireblast, to lists with Kiln Fiend and Nivmagus Elemental, to...

My point is, this thread is specifically to discuss Gro.

There is alot of removal going around, sure. Maybe some more protection or some more creatures would be a good idea, and that's exactly why this is in New and Developmental.

As far as being worse than Infect Stompy... there's a fundamental difference between going all in with spells that only provide creature pump (like Invigorate), and spells that are actually useful on their own that just happen to provide creature pump because of the creatures themselves (efficient cantrips and efficient burn).

On another note, I'm actually thinking that finding a way to fit in more "free" spells like Gitaxian Probe and Gut Shot might be a better approach, but this idea is still in the early developmental stages.

Using the list I posted above, something like...

-4 Preordain
-3 Forked Bolt
+4 Gitaxian Probe
+3 Gut Shot

Or something like that. Gitaxian Probe also has the benefit of letting me know if the opponent has creature removal and stuff. Gut Shot seems a bit underpowered, but it can easily dispatch mana dorks, Delvers, Mother of Runes, etc.

EDIT: Aside from the power of paying R for 5 damage, and the ability to have the name "Miracle-Gro," more Fireblast instead of Thunderous Wrath might be a good idea too, since it's also free. With a Kiln Fiend, Fireblast is basically a free 7 damage... and unlike Infect Stompy, if they kill my creature they still take 4 damage, and if they counter my Fireblast they still take the additional 3 damage from Kiln Fiend.

[(nameless one)]

Flusterstorm would be good here. With Nivmagus on the field, you can Brainstorm, then Daze your opponent's spell, maybe Lightning Bolt then Flusterstorm your opponent's same spell. Then use the extra copies of Flusterstorm I feed Nivmagus. Now your Nivmagus is a 5/6.

[Hanni]

After some discussion about Nivmagus in my Blue Sligh thread, it seems like it would be worth it to run him. He's great against decks with countermagic, and this format is full of decks with countermagic.

A creature base of...

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivamagus Elemental
4 Kiln Fiend

...sounds really good. You lose the shroud that Mongoose has, and the ass that Goyf has, but you become alot more aggressive. A two exiled spells makes Nivmagus a 5/6, which is just huge. On turn 3 with Kiln Fiend, if you cast 1-2 cantrips and/or 1-2 burn spells (removing blockers), Fiend is swinging for 10, where a Goyf would typically swinging for 3-4. Again, huge.

12 cantrips sounds like a good number to run. The cantrips in general can help dig for threats or answers. In the case of threats specifically, this seems necessary since we lack shroud. When we don't need to dig for anything, each cantrip gives Nivmagus a permanent +2/+2. But what cantrips to run... I'm not 100% sure. Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain are the best cantrips for card quality, but Gitaxian Probe is free and lets us see the opponent's hand.

For the burn spells, I'm thinking 10+ is going to be necessary. Kiln Fiend only has an ass of 2 and no trample, so we would need to clear the board of blockers to get the full value out of him.

Lightning Bolt seems pretty obvious. After that, it's not so obvious. Chain is the next best 1 for 3 burn spell, but the RR drawback could be a liability since Kiln Fiend and Delver both have an ass of 2. Gut Shout could be amazing since it's free, and kills creatures like Mother of Runes and Thalia just the same as Bolt. The fact that Forked Bolt can tag two creatures means it probably should make it into the maindeck in some amount. Thunderous Wrath seems pretty good too, since this deck can dig for a Brainstorm if its in the opening hand, and can use cantrips to set it up. R for 5 is pretty damn powerful. Fireblast could be a fantastic finisher, since it's also free and does a hefty 4 damage. Lava Dart also seems interesting, since it gives us two uses instead of just one. Grapeshot doesn't do much for Kiln Fiend, but it can do alot for Nivmagus, so that's also an option as a 1-2-of.

There are also some non-burn spells that have synergy with this deck too, like Gigadrowse and Ground Rift.

At this point, I'm not really sure what the removal package should look like.

To round it out, Daze and Force of Will make alot of sense for protecting our guys. Flusterstorm can get insane with Nivmagus, and is a solid countermagic spell overall. A package of...

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Flusterstorm

...seems pretty solid, with some extras in the sideboard. I'm not sure if going the Stifle/Waste route is going to be worth it in here, when we'd really like to make our first 3 land drops to chain cantrips to grow our guys.

I do want to say this, though. This idea may (or may not) be quite as tier as Threshold, but it looks extremely fun and explosive, and doesn't roll over to a Rest in Peace in postboard games.

[264505]

@Hanni-The pauper versions of this deck have Shadow Rift as a way to force through a lot of damage on the back of a Kiln Fiend. Might be worth consideration as it cantrips as well.

[Hanni]

Not a bad suggestion, I'll add it to the list (when I get around to updating the OP).

Thanks :)

[SirTylerGalt]

In the URw blue sligh deck I'm testing, I use Distortion Strike to make my Delver / Nivmagus Elemental / Steppe Lynx unblockable. You can also eat the "rebounded" Distortion Strike with Nivmagus.

Distortion Strike is even better with Kiln Fiend, because Kiln fiend becomes an unblockable 5/2 for two turns (more if you play other spells).


That said, Shadow Rift indeed looks interesting. If you have multiple attackers and your opponent only has one blocker, you can target the blocker instead, to make all your creatures unblockable :) Since it's an instant, you can play it in response to a Flash creature during the Declare Attackers step. I also like that it cantrips.


I like the idea of making our creatures unblockable with Distortion Strike and Shadow Rift, instead of "wasting" burn spells to kill opponent's creatures. With unblockable creatures, you can even attack through an Emrakul / Griselbrand.