"Xantid Swarm doesn't create virtual card advantage unless the opponent has multiples of an instant based hate card that couldn't counter Xantid Swarm or disrupt Xantid Swarm, and what card would that be? Threshold with double Daze on the draw? I could argue that Xantid Swarm decreases virtual card advantage because it is giving the opponent targets for his removal."
And if the opponnent has double FoW, single blue card? I think Ill Gotten Gains is the main reason to run Xantid, though, the same reason why Iggy runs leyline.
If you aren't using Ill gotten gains or returns to build storm count, what are you using? With both cards Xantid seems inf. superior.
A pro for Duress is that it can be cast turn one and take a duress from your opponents hand, pre-emptively protecting the combo. Most decks running discard are good matchups anyway though.
Also of note: A lightning bolt/StP from Thresh could mean they aren't able to dig w/ brainstorm to hit a FoW, or that they won't be able to play the counterspell in their hand (if they were on the play, and serum visioned or something turn one).
The ETW question is a little silly. You can't really state a black and white number, as the number will change depending on the game state. Allow me to elaborate.
Turn 1: 8-10 tokens. Decks can deal with/race 6 too easily, so I never keep a hand that only has 6 tokens going for it. If I have taken multiple mulligans, and a 6 token hand comes up, of course I'll go for it.
Turn 2: Depends on what I'm facing. Against some decks EtW is no longer an option on turn 2. After turn one I'd generally rather wait a turn and try for the tendrils combo than make answerable tokens, especially if those tokens wont finish things until turn 4. Sometime's it's all you can do though, so 12-16 is my minimum, in harsh situations. Ideally you'd be better off making 20+, to hopefully end things on turn 3, but this only occurs when tendrils is no longer an option.
Turn 3: See turn 2, only becoming even more of a desperate play.
EtW is almost never the best play after turn one, but sometimes (as in with returns) you just have to go for it because it's all you can do.
I think the main reason to run Duress is that it allows you to run a three-color manabase with fetchlands. This should in turn make Brainstorm stronger as a setup card and maybe make mulliganing decisions a little bit easier. I do think you lose power by making this change, but it might be a worthwhile tradeoff for consistency.
The chances of the opponent drawing a hand with 2 Force of Will and 1 blue card and having to either Force of Will, discarding another Force of Will, or discard the other blue card and keeping the second Force of Will off of a blue card, are rare, as opposed to Xantid Swarm giving Swords to Plowshares, direct damage or other removal a target.
Xantid Swarm doesn't protect Ill Gotten Gains more/less than Duress against Force of Will, and Xantid Swarm protects Diminishing Returns less against Force of Will; No Force of Will is as good as GG no matter how the deck chooses to win.
6 Tokens, turn one, is enough to race Threshold or put Threshold at such a low life total that a Tendrils will end the game, I assume no one uses ETW against Goblins as a win condition, but as damage + card advantage leading into a Tendrils.
There's no right number for ETW, but there are wrong numbers against wrong decks.
I've been thinking about a B/R Fetchland manabase for awhile, replacing Brainstorm with Night's Whispers, and using multiple Tomb of Urami. You gain resistance to Wasteland, better B/w and B/r match ups, additional Threshold and more win conditions, but lose being able to Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns and hard cast the Diminishing Returns and being able to Burning Wish->Enchantment Removal and SB in Xantid Swarms (could be Dark Confidants tho'). I'm not certain that the B/R Fetchland manabase and additional Tomb of Urami are worth removing those two SB outs, but it would be interesting to test it.
Edit: The deck can't hard cast the MD Diminishing Returns either.
You mean counterspells? Xantid Swarm's best advantage over Duress is the ability to come online turn one, and lock down control decks from there. Here are a few examples against control:Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Turn 1: Xantid Swarm. Resolves locking down counterspells, FOF's, Stifles, ect...
Turn 1: Duress. Hit X. Opponent draws a counterspell.
Duress just isn't good vs. Counter based decks. Duress is horrible against top decks it’s a fact. Locking down control at an early element in game state is what wins games. Not the turn you want to combo when they have multiple answers to your deck.
Is all of your logic based on the fact that the opponent MUST/already has an answer for Swarm? Many decks in the format that run blue run 4 spot removal which generally get SB'd out. If they don't it has the possibility of being a dead draw or you have Xantid and they don't have removal and you bury them in virtual card advantage. Yes, Xantid Swarm does create it; more so than Duress. Duress can never be anything more than card parity.
Let’s compare Duress vs. Xantid Swarm before Returns. I cast Swarm and swing locking out everything my opponent does or wants to do. I cast Duress and they draw double stifle, even though you Duress again. Oh noes, I've lost the game. This situation would've been solved a lot easier if you had a way to lockdown your opponent’s game state. If worse comes to worst with Xantid Swarm and I draw him after returns he always pitches to Chrome Mox or adds to Threshold.
We've gone over this argument already, locking down game state is more important than card parity.
This is simply not true. Opponents keep hands of double stifle/double counterspell against TES all the time when playing control. You play first turn Xantid. It just shut down 2 cards in their hand where Duress would've only shut down one for a brief moment. The deck rarely even wins with Diminishing Returns which is why this portion of your argument is moot. Even if Diminishing Returns were better with Duress which it isn't, why's this a huge deal? It should matter on what we use the most, Ill-Gotten Gains. Duress is horrible with Ill-Gotten Gains which is why Iggy Pop doesn't play it. You're forced to get back Duress to answer one card and if they have multiples you simply lose the game. Where as Xantid Swarm would lockdown their hand and graveyard allowing a simple and easy pass to victory.
Duress only takes one card, what if they have Force, Force, and blue card? Duress has no way around that. Where as Xantid forces them to make a decision, where as Duress it's a "Meh, I guess."
Did you notice something? I sure did, Empty the warrens doesn't care about nullrod. It's a win condition that simply ignores artifacts most of the time. Even then Nullrod isn't played. Period. I don't see where Duress is better than Xantid with Force and Stifle. You end up with one or the other, Xantid will take both and .5 storm. If every hand my opponent ever drew had Nullrod or Swords maybe.
Spot removal is becoming less and less popular, most decks only run 4 if that. More decks are moving to mass removal to deal with Goblins and ETW. Either way Xantid Swarm netted +1 Card Advantage where Duress was + 0.
This is ludicrous, a Xantid Swarm that has covered someone in bees is much more effieneecnt and creates card advantage compared to Duress by not having to return it's self to deal with hate which ends with +1 Xantid, -1 Duress(Because you had to do it twice).
The number of tokens depends on way too many things, who's on the play, deck, game state, hate, ect... This is not necessarily directed at you but more so everyone.
@Everyone about hands- I'm not a very aggressive mulligan-er, I'm the type of guy that "takes it slow, and lets the good times roll."
Last edited by Bryant Cook; 04-07-2007 at 10:03 PM.
Counterspell or a counterspell? There's a difference between the UU instant, which isn't used in aggro-control, and the Force of Will, the Force of Will being the counter that I take into consideration .
Duress either discards Force of Will, where Xantid Swarm would be countered, or it discards Stifle, where Xantid Swarm would be Time Walked, or it discards Force of Will and reveals Stifle, where Xantid Swarm would be countered and risks Stifle, and then be able to Diminishing Returns and shuffle the Stifle back into the deck (I don't care if the opponent draws Stifle again or not, the position is still better for TES after Duress and Diminishing Returns then it is for TES after Xantid Swarm and ??? where Duress disrupted the opponent and can disrupt the opponent again).
So, Xantid Swarm is good against double Counterspell, the counterspell no one uses, at creating virtual card advantage, Xantid Swarm is mediocre against double Stifle, where the opponent gets three Time Walks.
Duress can avoid losing to the top deck by being played on the same turn that you combo, regardless, the opponent top decking a Force of Will or Stifle is better than losing Xantid Swarm to Swords to Plowshares (people never really SB that card out, because they rarely have anything better to replace it with).
Comparing a resolved Xantid Swarm and a resolved Duress before/after a Diminishing Returns is retarded, if the opponent had no Force of Will, no Stifle, no Swords to Plowshares, no Meddling Mage, no Null Rod and no Engineered Explsives/Tividar's Crusade then how is the method with which the deck chooses to end the game relevant? You just win.
That argument had nothing to do with locking down the game vs card parody, it had to do with Ill Gotten Gains being the superior win condition than Diminishing Returns when the opponent had no disruption in hand at the start of the game.
Again, double Counterspell or double counterspell? I don't see opponents who are stupid enough to keep hands with 2 counterspells that can't stop Xantid Swarm from resolving or Time Walk against it.
This deck wins more with Diminishing Returns than it does with Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control or control, 40% of game one the opponent will draw Force of Will, and game two and three the opponent can mulligan into Force of Will. Force of Will=No Ill Gotten Gains, and that isn't counting the odds of being Tormod's Crypted.
The Duress discard the Force of Will and reveals the Stifle, so the Stifle can be shuffled back into the deck with Diminishing Returns, which is better than the opponent countering the Force of Will and letting TES play into Stifle.
I don't care that much about the -1 card advantage from a Force of Will, the deck is going to have to give that card advantage back to the opponent with Diminishing Returns if it wants to win with Tendrils
I'll concede that Duress is worse against top decks tho', I'm just not certain that is as bad as being a removal magnet.
I ment the card counterspell which is played in Gro and Landstill. The two control decks currently in the LMF.
This is flawed logic. I don't play around stifle, but yet you used Diminishing Returns in defense earlier while discussing Ill-Gotten Gains and stifle. Which one is it? You assume way too many things such as "Duress is better after returns" Xantid is better before Returns. Beating a dead horse and posting that same line countless times gets you no where.
Those time walks are card advantage something Duress doesn't create. Making Xantid a better suited card against control. If they are stifling Swarm that means they don't have an answer and are desperatly needing to find one or they lose.
Playing the Duress the turn you combo can often be irrelevant. When playing against landstill for instance(Most control match-ups go to mid-game) and they have Force, Force, Stifle, and Fof. Xantid Swarm locked off those cards turn one. While they sat there and drew counterspell after counterspell. While Duress finds itself useless.
Why? You were comparing a resolved Duress earlier to a countered Xantid. Stifle gains you card advantage, What does Meddling Mage do to turn one Xantid? Nullrod, last time I knew Xantid wasn't an artifact creature, and Tividars crusade? They're bees. I know what you meant to say, however, hald the cards you posted don't do anything if you had your opponent in bees and played Returns. Xantid Swarm goes unanswered more than you'd think. The format isn't full of lava darts and darkblast.
It's a huge factor in deciding what card is better for protection. It is relevant. They could've had plently of discruption, Stifle, Daze, Counterspell, and ect.. alot of the "Disruption" doesn't come online until after Xantid has hit the table.
Happens alot, not every hand is perfect.
Maybe if you're playing sub-optimal card choices, not when playing cards that synergize with the strongest storm generator in the deck. Anyone who has played the deck knows you win with Igg more than Returns vs. Everything.
Because you will always have BUU2 avaiable and the cards nessesary at all times, right?
Why do all of your examples always have a returns attached? There's only one in the deck. You always dont have UU avaiable, more importantly, you said you cut returns from the MD. So unless I'm wrong you need Burning Wish too? I wish I could draw everything I ever wanted too.
I don't see this being logical at all you play ETW and Confidant don't you?
? Post gains you'll need another black mana for that duress again, if you're making the point I think you're trying to make. Now Duress costs BB instead of Xantid's G, I think that sounds worse to me.
Claiming that Duress and Xantid are equal when Diminishing Returns is concerned is just shortsighted. When you cast Returns that duress is getting shuffled back into your library, and you *might* get it again when you try to combo out with your second hand. If they draw a FoW, and you didn't draw it the duress again, you're fecked (there's a 40% chance of them just drawing the force with the second hand.) Xantid's ability, however, keeps you safe through Return's set of cards as well.
Are you claiming that people running force of will or stifle rarely have a sb for storm decks? I find that hard to believe, as every Thresh deck has at least needles in the board, and needle on LED is better than nothing.
Tormod's Crypt hmm? Almost sounds like an anti-combo card commonly found in control decks sb. Why, they might even want to take out MD creature removal for it! Fancy that!
I'm not saying that's the right play, but there are a surprising number of players who haven't tested the matchup yet. If you listen to the podcast on goblins after the podcast on the Epic Storm, you'll hear a very good gobblins player talk about how the storm matchup "couldn't be that bad for gobblins." Anyone who has tested the matchup knows it is.
They can not have the removal with their first hand, and then draw into it with the returns, obviously. Xantid keeps you safe during that second hand of cards, as well as keeps you safe from whatever countermagic they've managed to aquire on their second turn. That is the relevance to the xantid swarm/duress comparison pre-returns and post-returns.
I'd rather needle Tomb of Urami ^_^
On Xantid vs. Duress, even if i like duress more, i must admit it's far inferior here, since you need to go off the same turn you use Duress (for obvious topdecking reasons) and so you can't set up. This means:
1) When you cast Duress you either: encounter no disruption and win with IGG / discard a counter/stifle and risk with a small Empty (can't cast IGG, you likely haven't enough mana to recur Duress)/ get your Duress countered and risk with a small Empty (same as above)/ discard a counter/stifle, see another piece of disruption and die orribly.
2) If you cast Duress (in the first turns) and chose not to go off after it being countered or seeing another piece of disruption, you have likely burned also a piece of acceleration.
3) If you wait even a turn to go off (i.e. need one more mana source), they have even more chances to draw disruption.
4) You can't use Diminishing Returns after a Duress: it's already hard to have UU, then you must find a Duress, the mana to cast it, and the mana to finish the combo.
When using Xantid you obviously have the same problem if it get's countered, but you are advantaged by the fact that you can cast it far ahead. A resolved Xantid is game, a Duress isn't.
“My power is as vast as the plains, my strength is that of mountains. Each wave that crashes upon the shore thunders like blood in my veins.” —Memoirs
oh... right... dur... I need to stop posting at 4 in the morning. In fact, I need to stop playtesting, tweaking, and generally trying to think at 4 in the morning. Seeing as how it's 5 now, I'm gunna go pass out.
Actually needle on LED IS nothing...
People either aren't bothering to read what I write, or I'm not articulating the point; I'm not going to answer 99% of those posts because I addressed them earlier.
I MD Diminishing Returns, regardless, 40% of the time the opponent draws Force of Will, and that percentage increases with game 2 and game 3 mulligans. I don't see how this deck is winning with Ill Gotten Gains more than Diminishing Returns when a Force of Will is in the discard pile more often than not.
Stifling Xantid Swarm isn't card disadvantage in the traditional sense, Stifle Time Walks Threshold into another turn and another card, and the card Threshold draws has more net utility than the card TES draws, considering that card has to be able to alter the game state, while TES should have sufficient cards in hand to go off on the following turn.
I hate turn one Land, Xantid go. Land go. Turn two attack with Xantid, Stifle in response pass. Land into Meddling Mage or Null Rod.
I don't have a problem discarding the Force of Will, revealing the Stifle and then casting Diminishing Returns on the second or third turn, all it requires is Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish and LED or Burning Wish and UU.
ETW isn't countered via Swords to Plowshares and Dark Confidant is in the SB.
Aggro-control SBs out Mystic Enforcer and Pithing Needle before it SBs out Swords to Plowshares for Tormod's Crypts, and Aggro-control SBs in Engineered Explosives if they have it. Those decks tend to have more removal for Xantid Swarm games 2 and 3 than they do game one.
After facing Landstill and High Tide on MWS, I'm going back to Xantid Swarm; while Duress is better against aggro-control, IMO, it's worse against control. The number of Counterspells, Spell Snares and Disrupt I encountered were ridiculous.
Does TES just lose to 4 Force of Will, 4 Counterspell, 4 Stifle, 4 Duress/Spell Snare, 4 Meddling Mage, 4 Wasteland possible Arcane Labe/Rule of Law and Pernicious Deed post board?
On a side note,
If the opponent goes Island go, do people go land, Chrome Mox to bait Daze on Chrome Mox, or do people go land Xantid Swarm and disregard Daze?
Do people SB out ETW(s) on the draw?
Do people ever want to be able to SB in Tendrils to have 3 MD against control?
When Xantid Swarm is on the table the Force of Will in the graveyard and hand doesn't matter. Which makes it infinitly easier to win with Ill-Gotten Gains.
Lol, am I supposed to argue against this? I'm not sure but I think you just helped prove my point...
Who cares about Meddling Mage? Really, the deck was built to ignore it. Null Rod, I admit would be bad but doesn't see enough play around here to warrant changing the deck for it.
If you had Xantid you could've gotten both cards, stifle removed and won without hassle.
I'm aware Dark Confidant is in the SB but in the aggro control match-up I side him in, he eats alot more hate than Xantid does for some reason. If he doesn't he finds more Swarms.
Glad to see you've come to your senses.
"Xantid Swarm, go."
I could argue that the additional mana and the storm will provide faster more efficient goldfishes. I think SSG being uncounterable is next to irrelevant, who counters Lotus Petal? The protection from Daze is the only benefit I see out of SSG and even at that you are wasting resources. The storm, additional mana in multiples, being able to come back with Ill-Gotten Gains, two Rite of Flames being perfect for ETW, increasing deck speed, and Threshold are what make Rite of Flame better than SSG. Rite of Flame also shuffles back in after Diminishing Returns, unlike SSG.
I joined a dutch tournament yesterday with this deck and came in 13th out of 132, with 5 wins and 2 losses. Because the top 8 would only play for a ticket to GP columbus many people dropped so I got to play in the top 8. My first games I won, but the second I lost so I was shared third.
I played with this list:
1 tendrils
1 empty the warrens
1 diminishing returns
1 ill-gotten gains
4 infernal tutor
4 B wish
4 plunge
4 brainstorm
4 LED
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
2 seething song
2 chrome mox
1 simian spirit guide
4 city
4 mine
2 orchard
1 tomb of urami
4 xantid swarm
SB:
4 duress
3 empty the warrens
1 tendrils
1 returns
1 ill-gotten gains
1 infernal contract
1 grape shot
1 rough//tumble
1 shattering spree
1 simplify
the first round I played the mirror and won, partly because of me having SB duress. The 2nd game I won of B/W deadguy, one game I won after waste, sinkhole, duress, duress, because of topdecked treshed cabal rituals. The 3rd game I won against some kind of treshhold with red for SB pyroclasm and vial. The 4rth I lost against some weird counterbalance deck. The 5th I won against some U/R/W control with a lot of counters, some burn, and a stuffy doll combo wincondition. The 6th I lost to freaking GOBLINS. Because I had to mull to five and six, and he then put down chalice for 1 and then kept porting me. The 7th game I won of aluren and in top 8 I won of belcher and lost to solidarity.
I have used diminishing returns just ONCE and then fizzeled of it. In goldfish it seems a lot better than it is in practise, but I will still keep it in my deck for now. I used empty the warren 3 times and won two of them. Many times I was afraid to use it.
I like having 1 main tendrils because it can cost you games drawing it.
I haven't missed the extra chrome moxes but I wasn't sure if I wanted the simian spirit guide to be chrome mox or not, but I only had two moxes so I did it this way. Overal I am pretty happy with the deck and am planning to play in more tournaments with it.
matteus
Meddling Mage on LED or Ritual is still a serious problem.
SSG vs Daze isn't wasting resources, it's saving resources, the mana invested in the card being Dazed is at least equal to the mana that SSG would have produced, and if Daze is countered and the card resolves, the opponent is -1 card and -1 land drop to -1 card.
IMO, SSG is faster than Right of Flame, thanks to more turn 1 ETW and turn 4 wins and more turn 1/2 Diminishing Returns wins, it occurs more often than double Right of Flame does.
People will counter Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal if it's the card that creates 4 mana and 1 red mana.
A few more sample hands: These are all game one on the play.
Hand one: Gemstone mine, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Cabal Ritual, Xantid Swarm and Burning Wish.
Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.
Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.
Turns out you mulliagned game one. :-p. Thanks Ewokslayer.
Keep, looking for a turn 3 or 4 Tendrils win, but the hand is flippin weak.
Damn, I'm a sucker for Brainstorm. Sigh, keep and pray.Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.
I'd toss this away in a second - if wasn't for goddamn Brainstorm! This is the type of hand I'd keep and absolutely hate myself when I get screwed by a bad Brainstorm. 2 Dead cards and no permanent mana source? I think this is a hand that should be mullied, but like I said, I'm a sucker for Brainstorm.Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.
Hand 1: Mulliganing down to 5 seems iffy. But this hand is pretty much only going to do a third turn D-Return which isn't that impressive. I think you mulligan and hope for a good 5 card hand.
Keep.Hand two: 2x Xantid Swarm, 2x Dark Ritual, City of Brass, Lotus Petal and Brainstorm.
First turn Xantid Swarm should get you around all the blue decks in the format. Hopefully your land will stick around long enough to be used for Brainstorm against Goblins. I am a bit worried that this hand has nothing to do with the mana it can generate but hopefully your turn 2 draw and the brainstorm will fix that.
A bad hand with lots of potential. I so want to keep, drop petal brainstorm, draw the nuts and win, but that is unlikely. It looks like it can get you a turn 2 D-Returns which isn't horrible. Though you wouldn't have any mana floating unless the Brainstorm was excellent and not just average.Hand Three: Rite of Flame, Tendrils of Agony, 2x Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Diminishing Returns and Brainstorm.
Mulligan.
Last edited by Ewokslayer; 04-11-2007 at 01:03 PM.
Hand 1: Land, Xantid. Land, Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns. Land, and here the deck has to have drawn into another accelerant in order to cast Diminishing Returns.
Keep
Hand 2: Land, Xantid Swarm. That gives the deck a top deck and a Brainstorm to get its act together, and if the opponent counters the first Xantid Swarm, then second Xantid Swarm gives the deck another top deck.
Keep
Hand 3: Two 4cc cards, no permanent mana source and Brainstorm has to draw into a Burning Wish or an Infernal Tutor and a mana source just to be able to Diminishing Returns with 0 mana floating.
Mulligan
Hand 1 -I'd much rather keep this weak hand then go to 5. With this you just need to draw some accelleration, especially a LED. I wouldn't burning wish for the returns until I had the mana to cast both though, since depending on my draw I might get something better than returns, and there's nothing wrong with gripping your second 7 with a bit of a storm count.
Hand 2-Lots of accelleration and protection. The likelyhood of this hand winning is pretty good, so I keep.
Hand 3-Lots of crap clogging your hand, and no clear path to victory. Easy Mull.
Not a bad hand, it's got protection, and if you can draw some acceleration, you're good. I'd keep.
It's got Brainstorm, protection, good acceleration, and Brainstorm. Keeper.
Kind of a gross hand. The Tendrils is basically like you've already mulliganed, so I'd toss it back and look for something better.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
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