[Discussion] Counters...and why they don't work well in legacy

[FoolofaTook]

A more interesting question, to me at least, is why isn't the card Counterspell run more?

Because it costs UU and makes you tap out early on to use? The counters that are in use in most of the decklists are FoW and Daze. This despite the fact that both of those counters cost you in other ways: FoW costing card advantage and Daze costing mana tempo and frequently being irrelevant later on unless FoW is also in hand.

I took the original post to mean "why aren't counters an effective concept to build a deck around?"

The answer to that is that there are many more potential cheap threats than effective ways to counter them. Therefore counters are going to be used secondarily to protect your own cheap threats and occasionally avert disaster.

The kind of deck that counters might work in as a main theme is a deck in which permanent solutions are put in play and counters are used as the protection element for those solutions. The problem is that the permanent solutions (Moat, The Abyss, Imperial Mask, Sacred Ground, Warmth, Chalice of the Void, etc.) are all too specific or not timely enough or just don't handle runaway effects. That makes the potential answer deck have a lot of bad answers game 1 and forces them to tune perfectly and draw perfectly thereafter. Then you also have the denial problem of needing to avoid consistent draws.

It really looks like counters as a way of life is just dead and unlikely to return to the competitive scene.

[Goblin Snowman]

Counters as a deck theme were viable for a short time during Type Two, I'm not sure why people think the archetype has ever been "alive". You simply have to balence how good your "permantent" solutions are against the rest of the field. Thres and every Combo deck is hurt by Chalice of the Void, and it's decent against Goblins if it can come out fast enough. Moat can simply win the game by itself against a few decks. Kinda off topic, but just responding.

Phantom, Counterspell isn't played because there are cards that duplicate its effects with an easier cost. Most Landstill, Tog, random UW/UR control decks do run Counterspell, but in an aggressive deck such as NQG or Fish, its easier to be able to tap out and still bluff countermagic.

[FoolofaTook]

The two decks that I can recall 10+ counters working in before the split formats developed were Millstone and Stasis. The Millstone deck was quite strong in the environment, losing only to landkill (a lesser played theme that never won large tournaments) and decks that fished for a very early win. White weenies with Armageddon were also problematic. Stasis was an iffier proposition but still stonewalled a lot of themes.

The counter suite back then, as I recall it, was:

4 Counterspell
3 Mana Drain
3 Power Sink

The sideboards usually had a couple of Flash Counters for when you ran into another permission deck.

Both of those decks used the counters just to stop game-losing events and to protect their permanents. I saw the Millstone deck win a 512 tourney and place very well a bunch of other times. The reason it managed to do so well was that it's kill condition relied on just 4 cards, the 4 Millstones, and they were very cheap to get out and defend even early on.

The permanent solutions that it had available like Moat, CoP:Red/Black, Ivory Tower and Library of Leng (for discard) worked very effectively with Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Balance, Disenchant and Divine Offering to make an almost impenetrable defense. The 10 counters were just there for things like Armageddon, Balance, Mind Twist and the big killers Timetwister and Feldon's Cane.

[Citrus-God]

Phantom, Counterspell isn't played because there are cards that duplicate its effects with an easier cost. Most Landstill, Tog, random UW/UR control decks do run Counterspell, but in an aggressive deck such as NQG or Fish, its easier to be able to tap out and still bluff countermagic.

In short, Counters are usually good if they're proactive with your game plan. Force of Will is proactive because you're tapping out to do stuff, and you have FoW backed up. Daze is proactive because like FoW, you're tapping out to do stuff. Remand is proactive because you're stalling the tempo of the game in order to make land drops. Control decks just get away with running Counterspell because they're reactive in general.

[Hanni]

What is this thread about? Counters or MUC?

The thread title says counters... countermagic is a very strong element of the metagame. Countermagic helps keep combo in check. Force of Will is used in tons and tons of decks. Daze is used in aggro/control decks that need to invest mana into guys and thusly need free countermagic. Decks like Landstill use Counterspell because they invest in card advantage trades with board sweepers and card draw and can afford to leave UU untapped to counter stuff. Stifle gets used in many decks too, even though it's a different kind of counter.

If we're discussing MUC... I think the problem with MUC is that it's mono blue. There's too many advantages to splashing a color or two that I don't think it outweighs the mana instability and Back to Basics. Even a U/W or U/R MUC deck would be better off with the slight splash for a little board control. I like U/B too, especially now with Damnation (and Tog to replace Morphling).

You can't expect to counter everything unless your deck is designed to do that. U/B Counterbalance Tog is about the closest you'll get to being able to counter lots of spells without losing too much board control, IMO. Powder Keg in MUC just isn't as strong as Damnation against aggro (and Engineered Plague if your metagame is Goblins infested). Powder Keg answers artifacts. U/B has access to a green splash for Krosan Grip (wishable) or can simply run Engineered Explosives or Powder Keg SB. I've got a U/B/g Counterbalance Tog list built if you'd like to see the decklist.

MUC may be a little better while Hulk Flash is around but MUC lacks the tools to handle aggro/control without mass removal or spot removal. Quicksand and Powder Keg just don't do it for me, neither does Nevinyrall's Disk. This is a personal opinion though.

[Tacosnape]

Counters work in Legacy. They're amazing. Just not as your only form of an answer.

Also, there's only six counters in Legacy, assuming you mean ones played from the hand in a reactive manner and thereby don't count Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. They are:

Force of Will (The cheapest all-purpose hard counter)
Counterspell (The cheapest all-purpose hard counter you have to hardcast)
Stifle (The cheapest activated/triggered ability counter)
Daze (The cheapest all-purpose soft counter)
Hydroblast (Cheap sideboard counterspell that doubles as removal against red)
Blue Elemental Blast (Same as Hydroblast)

Others you might see played are based strictly on metagames (Spell Snare, Trickbind), or fit strictly for certain decks (Remand, Misdirection).

[Mirrislegend]

What I'm getting from all of this is that Mana Leak is out (but we all already new that) as is Counterspell. More pointedly, any strategies that had any dependency on Counterspell is now completely invalid. The only counterspells (Remand doesnt count, its a combo piece) I can see as even remotely worthwhile are Force Spike, Daze, Stifle, and FoW. But Force Spike hasnt been tested, as far as I know, and without all 4, you cant have a solid control package. So, has anyone tested Force Spike?

[Tacosnape]

What I'm getting from all of this is that Mana Leak is out (but we all already new that) as is Counterspell. More pointedly, any strategies that had any dependency on Counterspell is now completely invalid. The only counterspells (Remand doesnt count, its a combo piece) I can see as even remotely worthwhile are Force Spike, Daze, Stifle, and FoW. But Force Spike hasnt been tested, as far as I know, and without all 4, you cant have a solid control package. So, has anyone tested Force Spike?

This is dead wrong. Counterspell is a completely valid spell. It's run as an auto 4-of in every good Landstill deck because Landstill rarely if ever taps out to play something. It's equally solid in any other blue control Archetype that doesn't tap out, and some Threshold builds still run it as far as I know, as Threshold only needs to have on threat out to win and can then focus all its resources on protecting it.

Basically, counters in Legacy need to fit one of two scenarios.

1. You need to be able to cast it for 0 mana.
2. It has to be a hard counter (Hard counters don't have the word "Unless" in them.)

This eliminates Mana Leak immediately, and probably Force Spike in my mind also. The only workable exception to this I've ever seen is Circular Logic in U/G Madness.

[Pale Moon FTW]

Also you're forgetting Spell Snare. It's like a thousand times better than Force Spike.

[Tacosnape]

Spell Snare never saw play until Flash outside of a few bizarre attempts (One of which was by me.) It's not one of the big six.

However, Spell Snare is a hard counter, and costs only one, therefore in the right metagame or the right deck it would certainly be playable.

[FoolofaTook]

Basically, counters in Legacy need to fit one of two scenarios.

1. You need to be able to cast it for 0 mana.
2. It has to be a hard counter (Hard counters don't have the word "Unless" in them.)

This eliminates Mana Leak immediately, and probably Force Spike in my mind also. The only workable exception to this I've ever seen is Circular Logic in U/G Madness.

Edit: NM, was either or on the two conditions which I missed.

[Citrus-God]

Also you're forgetting Spell Snare. It's like a thousand times better than Force Spike.

I dont recall Spell Snare countering an SCG or Ringleader....