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Thread: [Deck] Vaka Pox

  1. #21

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    I prefer Tombstalker. Giving an opponent a Time Walk in which to find an out never was good, IMO. You don't want to blow yourself into oblivion, get screwed over by your topdecks, and on the last turn have your opponent find the STP or the crucial land to play it, and from there proceed to take over the game from your spent disruption...

  2. #22

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    First off, that's an extremely thorough explanation and analysis Clark. You've done an exhaustive work on the deck and I'd like to commend you for your efforts, insights, and innovation.

    I think Tombstalker appears to be a strong addition to the deck. However, this would be in addition to the nether spirits and chimeric idols you already currently run. It's vital to have at least 3 if not 4 of each of those to give you the early game against aggro. Nether spirit in particular grants a huge advantage when pitched to smallpox, so I run 4 to maximize my chances of this play (in addition to being STP protection). They also grant you robust win conditions later in the game when you may be casting more poxes. Tombstalker doesn't do either of these things but rather fills a different, more narrow function. It wants to be dropped in the mid game (after all poxes) to win quickly. Furthermore you need to discard other things to save it from pox. It gives the deck additional resistance to early game removal or fast starts from aggro. So, a couple utility/disruption cards have to be cut for it. I'll be testing it out.

    I highly question the usefulness of trinisphere in a deck with such a low mana curve. Trinisphere is relatively symmetrical in this deck since you have no lands that produce 2, no permanent early acceleration, and all cards of 3cc or less. Your only form of acceleration is neutered by trinisphere. 3sphere doesn't belong.

    I think I see why you want to run rancid earth. Since you can't deal with the turn 1 lackey you figure you'll wipe the X/1's off the board and smack a land at the same time. Other than this use, rancid earth is hugely unoptimal in the deck. 3cc cards have to be big time as far as impact. They have to be things like Pox and Crucible, which grant immense card advantage/quality/board position. Rancid earth could be any of a number of cards that fit the decks' mana curve better and help deal with specific problems.

    With respect to vindicate, it fills a much-needed role in pox, and I have tested out B/W pox with vindicate. However, in testing I have consistently found it to be a bit clunky and unwieldy (for this deck). When playing with vindicate I kept pushing myself to just put powder keg back into the deck. Killing a land with vindicate was usually highly suboptimal. Destroying the occasional enchantment proved useful. But as for destroying creatures and artifacts, powder keg was generally far superior in this deck. It streamlines with the mana curve, it can be played before there's even a threat in sight, can generate massive card advantage in situations (affinity much? lots of 1cc weenies much?) and cheaply deals with pithing needle and aether vial. Once vindicate left the deck, the incentive to play white quickly left with it.

    Ghostly prison is an interesting piece of innovation. If this deck had one card to punish all aggro with this would be it. It synergizes with the mana denial and generally slows them down far enough for anything above an abysmal draw to win the game. Granted you need to unclog the ground or have a big evasive beater (tombstalker) to actually win. Theoretically you don't need to deal with turn 1 lackey if you can drop this turn 3. You also don't have to worry about vial so much. Powder keg is just as dead against combo. Funeral charm is more versatile but doesn't shut down aggro. This card deserves very serious consideration by pox players willing to splash white.

    Clark: I propose you cut rituals, rancid earth, and trinisphere from the deck at least. Nether spirit has to go in, it has too much synergy not to be played. I'd also run only 3 tombstalkers. I'd put in the 4th pox too. Finally, duress needs to be run in any reasonable meta because there's plenty of IGG and Solid out there, in addition to random stuff you need to get rid of. I know you said duress hurts the gob matchup. I disagree, I've taken vial out of their hand several times. Additionally, snatching their naturalize/disenchant before you cast an important artifact/enchantment (idol, E. Plague, Ghostly Prison, crucible) wins the freakin' game. For three, snatching STP or bolt can keep your future nether spirit/idol/tombstalker around a lot longer (long enough to win the game even).

    I still think you are undervaluing funeral charm. It's rarely a dead card for me. I cast it in the early game and they pitch a land then get mana screwed. Or they pitch a spell and now I don't have to worry about that spell. Or I zap lackey. I cast it mid game and they basically skip their draw step. Or I pump my idol/spirit to lethal. Or my spirit trades with an X/4.

    Anyway, that's my $.02.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Androstanolone View Post
    First off, that's an extremely thorough explanation and analysis Clark. You've done an exhaustive work on the deck and I'd like to commend you for your efforts, insights, and innovation.

    I think Tombstalker appears to be a strong addition to the deck. However, this would be in addition to the nether spirits and chimeric idols you already currently run. It's vital to have at least 3 if not 4 of each of those to give you the early game against aggro. Nether spirit in particular grants a huge advantage when pitched to smallpox, so I run 4 to maximize my chances of this play (in addition to being STP protection). They also grant you robust win conditions later in the game when you may be casting more poxes. Tombstalker doesn't do either of these things but rather fills a different, more narrow function. It wants to be dropped in the mid game (after all poxes) to win quickly. Furthermore you need to discard other things to save it from pox. It gives the deck additional resistance to early game removal or fast starts from aggro. So, a couple utility/disruption cards have to be cut for it. I'll be testing it out.

    I highly question the usefulness of trinisphere in a deck with such a low mana curve. Trinisphere is relatively symmetrical in this deck since you have no lands that produce 2, no permanent early acceleration, and all cards of 3cc or less. Your only form of acceleration is neutered by trinisphere. 3sphere doesn't belong.

    I think I see why you want to run rancid earth. Since you can't deal with the turn 1 lackey you figure you'll wipe the X/1's off the board and smack a land at the same time. Other than this use, rancid earth is hugely unoptimal in the deck. 3cc cards have to be big time as far as impact. They have to be things like Pox and Crucible, which grant immense card advantage/quality/board position. Rancid earth could be any of a number of cards that fit the decks' mana curve better and help deal with specific problems.

    With respect to vindicate, it fills a much-needed role in pox, and I have tested out B/W pox with vindicate. However, in testing I have consistently found it to be a bit clunky and unwieldy (for this deck). When playing with vindicate I kept pushing myself to just put powder keg back into the deck. Killing a land with vindicate was usually highly suboptimal. Destroying the occasional enchantment proved useful. But as for destroying creatures and artifacts, powder keg was generally far superior in this deck. It streamlines with the mana curve, it can be played before there's even a threat in sight, can generate massive card advantage in situations (affinity much? lots of 1cc weenies much?) and cheaply deals with pithing needle and aether vial. Once vindicate left the deck, the incentive to play white quickly left with it.

    Ghostly prison is an interesting piece of innovation. If this deck had one card to punish all aggro with this would be it. It synergizes with the mana denial and generally slows them down far enough for anything above an abysmal draw to win the game. Granted you need to unclog the ground or have a big evasive beater (tombstalker) to actually win. Theoretically you don't need to deal with turn 1 lackey if you can drop this turn 3. You also don't have to worry about vial so much. Powder keg is just as dead against combo. Funeral charm is more versatile but doesn't shut down aggro. This card deserves very serious consideration by pox players willing to splash white.

    Clark: I propose you cut rituals, rancid earth, and trinisphere from the deck at least. Nether spirit has to go in, it has too much synergy not to be played. I'd also run only 3 tombstalkers. I'd put in the 4th pox too. Finally, duress needs to be run in any reasonable meta because there's plenty of IGG and Solid out there, in addition to random stuff you need to get rid of. I know you said duress hurts the gob matchup. I disagree, I've taken vial out of their hand several times. Additionally, snatching their naturalize/disenchant before you cast an important artifact/enchantment (idol, E. Plague, Ghostly Prison, crucible) wins the freakin' game. For three, snatching STP or bolt can keep your future nether spirit/idol/tombstalker around a lot longer (long enough to win the game even).

    I still think you are undervaluing funeral charm. It's rarely a dead card for me. I cast it in the early game and they pitch a land then get mana screwed. Or they pitch a spell and now I don't have to worry about that spell. Or I zap lackey. I cast it mid game and they basically skip their draw step. Or I pump my idol/spirit to lethal. Or my spirit trades with an X/4.

    Anyway, that's my $.02.
    I came to some of the same conclusions, mostly the clunkiness of Trinisphere. My Pox build right now is running Spinning Darkness, and Skeletal Scrying. I threw Trinisphere to the board, and Vindicate may soon be cut for Powder Keg, that way I can go back to Mono-black Pox.
    The most controversial addition to my deck is Skeletal Scrying, but if you play with the math, it usually works out in your favor. If you're at 17, and you Pox, you go to 11, if you're at 15 and you Pox, you go to 10, so I figure if I set myself at an ideal lifetotal with Scrying, doing it early on for usually 2, sometimes 3 if I really need a card and drop the 4th land down, I can get better board position.

    I will have a hard time convincing myself that Vindicate is worth cutting, and that my Scrublands won't be used. One question: If I cut Vindicate and go mono-black, would you run any Fetchlands? I'm not using Crucible in my build as well, and I'll post my decklist, maybe /shifty eyes/ after the GPT depending on how well I do.

  4. #24
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    *snip* double post my bad guys, database error =(

  5. #25
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by tylerwylie View Post
    I came to some of the same conclusions, mostly the clunkiness of Trinisphere.
    I think pretty much everyone on this thread has assimilated against Vaka Pox.

    I hope I dont hurt your feelings by hammering on this Clark but I honestly dont think this version of pox belongs in the Open Forum. We have decks like Death and Taxes and AfFOWnity that have a cummulative agreed upon decklists. You've made 2 major revisions to your deck on the first page. The most important feature of the Open Forums is the developed decklist.

    Id love to help the prosperity of the deck but we need a common ground on development. I understand your focus is on mid game but there still is an early game to worry about. Ghostly Prison cant be your answer to lackey when lackey has already hit you twice (-2) and SGC and friends hit once (-5). The general concept of Pox has you losing yourself a good 7-10 life on your own, that doesnt make it difficult for aggro to capitalize on your net life loss. Now factor in that Ghostly Prison on turn 4. Its not like Gobs wont have a single Wasteland or Port to slow your mana development. Your not playing mono-swamps.dec

    Lets focus on some early spot removal for christs sake.
    Now playing real formats.

  6. #26
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living View Post
    I think pretty much everyone on this thread has assimilated against Vaka Pox.

    Id love to help the prosperity of the deck but we need a common ground on development. I understand your focus is on mid game but there still is an early game to worry about. Ghostly Prison cant be your answer to lackey when lackey has already hit you twice (-2) and SGC and friends hit once (-5). The general concept of Pox has you losing yourself a good 7-10 life on your own, that doesnt make it difficult for aggro to capitalize on your net life loss. Now factor in that Ghostly Prison on turn 4. Its not like Gobs wont have a single Wasteland or Port to slow your mana development. Your not playing mono-swamps.dec

    Lets focus on some early spot removal for christs sake.
    Innocent Blood is the best answer for early Goblin Lackey's. I tried Vaka Pox for a while albeit with some minor tweaks, and some of his card choices seemed great at the time, but it's not my Pox style.

  7. #27

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Bane, the only card there seems to be any real disagreement on is Trinisphere. And I'm commited to testing it until I'm certain that adding the card was the right move.

    Except for Trinisphere as a way to fight combo, there was no revision to the original list. Once Tombstalker was previewed, to the very strong synergy the card has, it seemed prudent to post a preview build of what a build utilizing the card might look like. But that build isn't displacing the original list. The testing results pertain to the original list. So what if Trinisphere and Tombstalker are being discussed. Just because a new card is being discussed in no way means that a build isn't developed.

    Look at the Threshold deck, everyone is now talking about Llurgoyf. Look at the Fairie Stompy deck, everyone is still talking about TfK vs. Fact or Fiction, Juggernaut or no, Cloud of Fairies or no, if the new Djinn is worthwhile. Is Psionic Blast worthwhile etc. Is Threshold undeveloped? Is F. Stompy? Just because there's a card or two that some people replying to the thread disagree about doesn't say anything about how strong the deck already is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Androstanolone View Post
    I think I see why you want to run rancid earth. Since you can't deal with the turn 1 lackey you figure you'll wipe the X/1's off the board and smack a land at the same time. Other than this use, rancid earth is hugely unoptimal in the deck. 3cc cards have to be big time as far as impact. They have to be things like Pox and Crucible, which grant immense card advantage/quality/board position. Rancid earth could be any of a number of cards that fit the decks' mana curve better and help deal with specific problems.

    With respect to vindicate, it fills a much-needed role in pox, and I have tested out B/W pox with vindicate. However, in testing I have consistently found it to be a bit clunky and unwieldy (for this deck). When playing with vindicate I kept pushing myself to just put powder keg back into the deck. Killing a land with vindicate was usually highly suboptimal. Destroying the occasional enchantment proved useful. But as for destroying creatures and artifacts, powder keg was generally far superior in this deck. It streamlines with the mana curve, it can be played before there's even a threat in sight, can generate massive card advantage in situations (affinity much? lots of 1cc weenies much?) and cheaply deals with pithing needle and aether vial. Once vindicate left the deck, the incentive to play white quickly left with it.

    Ghostly prison is an interesting piece of innovation. If this deck had one card to punish all aggro with this would be it. It synergizes with the mana denial and generally slows them down far enough for anything above an abysmal draw to win the game. Granted you need to unclog the ground or have a big evasive beater (tombstalker) to actually win. Theoretically you don't need to deal with turn 1 lackey if you can drop this turn 3. You also don't have to worry about vial so much. Powder keg is just as dead against combo. Funeral charm is more versatile but doesn't shut down aggro. This card deserves very serious consideration by pox players willing to splash white.

    Clark: I propose you cut rituals, rancid earth, and trinisphere from the deck at least. Nether spirit has to go in, it has too much synergy not to be played. I'd also run only 3 tombstalkers. I'd put in the 4th pox too. Finally, duress needs to be run in any reasonable meta because there's plenty of IGG and Solid out there, in addition to random stuff you need to get rid of. I know you said duress hurts the gob matchup. I disagree, I've taken vial out of their hand several times. Additionally, snatching their naturalize/disenchant before you cast an important artifact/enchantment (idol, E. Plague, Ghostly Prison, crucible) wins the freakin' game. For three, snatching STP or bolt can keep your future nether spirit/idol/tombstalker around a lot longer (long enough to win the game even).
    Andro, thank you for the very well thought out feedback. I agree with you on Vindicate and Ghostly Prison, they're invaluable.

    Nether Spirit however has very poor synergy with Tombstalker. Nether Spirit is a threat that really works best if you run 3 creatures total in your whole deck. I really hated having cut it, and maybe it is more worthwhile than a 2cc 5/5 flyer that dies to your own Pox effects. I would have to test Tombstalker more to see if it really is worth it. But I don't think they would both work together in the same build.

    The reason Dark Ritual and Trinisphere were run together was that Dark Ritual to cast Trinisphere (or Crucible in certain matchups) is probably the best play the deck has, esp against goblins on the play. The deck can very reliably keep your opponent at 1 or 2 lands max. Making sure that no 1cc or 2cc spells can be played at the same time is really strong. Dark Ritual is many times worthless after the first few turns. That's why I don't think it's that big a deal that the card is dead by the time you have a Trinisphere out. For the most part, it would be dead even without it. But if you want to run Duress in place of Trinisphere, I encourage you to do so. As was mentioned in the original post, Duress very likely belongs in a meta that's light on goblins. Unfortunately, goblins is very prevalent, and the card is dead far too often against the matchup.

    In addition, this deck goes well into the midgame virtually every single game. And any duress drawn after your fourth or fifth is almost always a card that you wish could blow up your opponent's final land instead. That's the main role Rancid Earth serves. Picking of random x/1s is just a small bonus and the reason something like Rain of Tears wasn't run instead.

    What you have to keep in mind with this build, is that it's entirely devoted to mana screwing your opponent. Running 22 land destruction cards tends to do that very reliably. And it just seemed natural to abuse your opponents inability to go past one land to ensure they can't play any spells (Trinisphere), or attack with any of their resolved threats (Ghostly Prison). It doesn't matter how many Siegegang Commanders your opponent got out with Lackey, it doesn't matter if they bring you down to five life, if you're holding enough land destruction to ensure they will never be able to attack through Ghostly Prison again.

    I've run monoblack Pox decks for a very long time. Those builds just weren't able to always keep your opponent mana screwed after the initial wave of disruption. Addressing that weakness, and abusing this decks greatest area of strength (blowing up land) was the whole point of the deck. And I assure you that it was key in bringing up your percentages against a number of decks.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 04-27-2007 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    I've run monoblack Pox decks for a very long time. Those builds just weren't able to always keep your opponent mana screwed after the initial wave of disruption. Addressing that weakness, and abusing this decks greatest area of strength (blowing up land) was the whole point of the deck. And I assure you that it was key in bringing up your percentages against a number of decks.
    Then you can drop Vindicate for Black's plethora of 1BB spells that destroy lands if you primarily use it for land destruction, I really only use it for land destruction if I've killed a few of their lands already.

  9. #29

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Then you can drop Vindicate for Black's plethora of 1BB spells that destroy lands if you primarily use it for land destruction, I really only use it for land destruction if I've killed a few of their lands already.
    If you're going to pay 3 for a spell you might as well have it do everything. Most especially pox badly needs to deal with certain cards like vial, lackey, survival, blah blah. Being able to take care of those problems while still having the option to mana screw is the point of playing vindicate and thus the primary reason for playing white. Playing a 3cc purely LD spell in monoblack pox would be horrible.

  10. #30

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Nether Spirit however has very poor synergy with Tombstalker. Nether Spirit is a threat that really works best if you run 3 creatures total in your whole deck. I really hated having cut it, and maybe it is more worthwhile than a 2cc 5/5 flyer that dies to your own Pox effects. I would have to test Tombstalker more to see if it really is worth it. But I don't think they would both work together in the same build.
    Actually, I think tombstalker is yet another reason to play 4x nether spirit. If you pox a nether spirit into the yard in the first 3 turns then drop The Big Guy you can feel free to pox away, say, mystic enforcer later on, sacrificing your nether spirit instead of your Big Guy. So spirit acts to protect your Big Man while being very good all on his own (by chumping forever early or just an infinitely recurrable win condition when your opponent is locked down). Furthermore, 2 nether spirits in the yard ailing you? Topdeck The Big Man and remove one to delve and you're good to go. They go great together. Tombstalker may somewhat "replace" chimeric idol, he's not vulnerable to artifact hate but he needs nether spirit to be around to dodge your own removal. In any event, if you're testing tombstalker, you've gotta test nether spirit alongside him.

    Dark ritual --> Trinisphere on turn one sounds like a horrible play to me. Mox diamond, ancient tomb --> Trinisphere sounds fantastic because next turn I can cast all kinds of things while my opponent is completely locked down by it (such as thirst for knowledge, uba mask, smokestack, karn, morph EA, yadda yadda). If I ritual out a trinisphere I've just used two of my own cards, consumed none of theirs, and now I have to wait out the next turn just to get out from under my own sphere. I suppose if you hit them with tons of LD after the sphere they may not have time to topdeck 3 mana, which is what the deck is designed to do I suppose. One thing trinisphere definitely does, isturns an otherwise winnable matchup into a bad one (stax).

  11. #31

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Andro, good point about Spirit, it might work. When I start testing the Tombstalker build over my current build, I am going to make sure to try running it with Spirit.

    Tyler hit the nail on the end. Sure, the majority of the time, Vindicate does hit lands. But just having the option to take out your opponents Crucible or Vial or whatever other problem card they might have instantly makes it far superior to monoblack alternatives.

    "I suppose if you hit them with tons of LD after the sphere they may not have time to topdeck 3 mana, which is what the deck is designed to do I suppose."

    Exactly. With 20-22 ld spells, it's near impossible for you not to slaughter their manabase. Even at worst case scenario, your first ld gets Forced, your second Counterspelled, but you will always have enough ld to drop them down to 2 lands max by turn 5 and that's the worst case scenario. You simply play more ld than decks play counterspells. And after that, you never have to worry about a counterspell trading with a ld again, and you can usually proceed to sweep up their last two lands.

    Meanwhile, with that turn one Trinisphere, you prevented them from casting turn brainstorm into a FoW or whatever else they might have done.

    The main point of Trinisphere is that I was getting sick of decks randomly topdecking a land and Swordsing my Spirit or Chimeric Idol when I was just short of winning. Making sure they simply can't play any cards period. But the card is good for so much more than that.

  12. #32
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Decklist I'm taking to GPT: Atlanta tomorrow.

    3 Nether Spirit
    4 Chimeric Idol
    3 Spinning Darkness
    3 Skeletal Scrying
    4 Smallpox
    4 Pox
    4 Sinkhole
    4 Vindicate
    4 Duress
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Wasteland
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    7-8 Swamp
    4 Scrubland
    1-2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    Sideboard:
    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Engineered Plague
    2 Infest

    Reason for only 3 Plague and 2 Infest is that I'm expecting a few non-Goblins aggro decks to show up, specifically white weenie, and am going to run either Massacre or Infest, I believe having 3 Plagues and 2 Infests for goblins is enough, and the only other choices I'm considing is dropping 3 Spinning Darkness and 1 Skeletal Scrying for 4 Innocent Blood, it all depends on what I see for the most part at the GPT.

    This is the most successful build of Pox I've been running, thanks in part to Spinning Darkness and Skeletal Scrying helping me keep ahead of my opponent and my opponent thinking it's safe to attack while I'm tapped out. With 20 cards that can pop lands, I should stay ahead of them. The hardest match for me pre-board will be Landstill, after board I throw in Chalice and Trinisphere and it helps the matchup a lot more, specifically because chalice for 1 stops so much stuff that sucks for Pox, etc Swords.

  13. #33
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Clark: I appreciate all the time you've put into this deck as I really enjoy it. I do agree that trying to force the tombstalker in with cutting so many aspects that make this deck's synergy amazing is a poor choice; it makes it feel too much like a worse version of red death.

    I have yet to feel the necessity of adding white, vindicate although being a very good card hasn't proved to be reason enough for me to splash (also I don't own scrubs...)

    My decklist, this is a step back from where you are, but I believe it to be very strong.

    Lands: 23 (With the totems and crucibles this seems to be enough lands)
    3-Mishra's Factory
    2-Cabal Pit (These should never be cut)
    4-Urborg (the glue that holds the mana base together)
    3-bloodstained Mire
    1-polluted delta
    4-wasteland
    6-swamp


    Creatures: 3
    3-Nether Spirit

    Spells:34
    4-Duress (this is too good a one drop against so many decks to SB)
    3-Innocent Blood
    4-Small Pox
    4-Pox
    2-Sinkhole ( I only have two, however Rancid Earth has been very good at times)
    2-Rancid Earth (This card doesn't get all the credit it deserves, often times it will be a two for 1, and clear away that small creature to make your Innocent blood or small pox more effective)
    4-Hymn
    2-Phrexian Totem (I actually like idol better, but not with the factories)
    3-Crucible
    3-Sensei's Top (MVP)
    3-Powder Keg ( I suppose this is doing what vindicate does in your build; yet it has the ability to take out more than one perminant; blowing at zero against affinity to destroy their entire manabase is nice)

    Sb:
    4-Leyline of the Void
    3-Infest
    4-Engineered Plauge
    1-Powder Keg
    3-Cabal Therapy

    Experiences with the deck:

    Each game with this deck feels like you may lose; yet you almost always stabilize around 10 or so life and your opponent is basically reduced to topdecking with no board. While you beat with recurring Spirits, factories & totems.

    During my testing I have found that there haven't been any terrible matchups where this deck just loses (goblins pre-board?). It also doesn't have any matchups that are complete byes.

    Dark rituals were cut early on as they are only good in your opening hand, and top-decking is where this deck does and needs to excel!

    Other thoughts: This deck get threshold very quick; are there any ways to abuse this? I relize tombstalker can, but I just don't like the fact that it negates the spirit what seems like a lot of the time. I like to use small pox like a sinkhole without caring that the spirit will hit the bin again, I would be much more hesitant to do this if I had to sac the tombstalker.

  14. #34

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Gambit, for a budget version of the deck (2 Sinkholes, no white splash), the deck looks really strong. Are you playing it tom too? Good luck man.

    Tyler, I really wish you would try Ghostly Prison and run atleast 3 Urborg along with Cabal Pit and other goodies (Flagstones maybe). Plus a couple more slots to hate goblins in the side. But otherwise, the build looks excellent. Best of luck.

  15. #35
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Gambit View Post
    My decklist, this is a step back from where you are, but I believe it to be very strong.

    Lands: 23 (With the totems and crucibles this seems to be enough lands)
    3-Mishra's Factory
    2-Cabal Pit (These should never be cut)
    4-Urborg (the glue that holds the mana base together)
    3-bloodstained Mire
    1-polluted delta
    4-wasteland
    6-swamp


    Creatures: 3
    3-Nether Spirit

    Spells:34
    4-Duress (this is too good a one drop against so many decks to SB)
    3-Innocent Blood
    4-Small Pox
    4-Pox
    2-Sinkhole ( I only have two, however Rancid Earth has been very good at times)
    2-Rancid Earth (This card doesn't get all the credit it deserves, often times it will be a two for 1, and clear away that small creature to make your Innocent blood or small pox more effective)
    4-Hymn
    2-Phrexian Totem (I actually like idol better, but not with the factories)
    3-Crucible
    3-Sensei's Top (MVP)
    3-Powder Keg ( I suppose this is doing what vindicate does in your build; yet it has the ability to take out more than one perminant; blowing at zero against affinity to destroy their entire manabase is nice)

    Sb:
    4-Leyline of the Void
    3-Infest
    4-Engineered Plauge
    1-Powder Keg
    3-Cabal Therapy
    Welcome to the source.

    I dont think your list is a step backward at all. Infact I think it matches the ones that have been most extensively developed in the Pox thread. The only change I would insist is -1 Pox +1 Innocent Blood. Of course you should pick up your last 2 Sinkholes as well.

    Id be interested in hearing how Clarks version Vaka Pox does in real tournaments. Have you been taking it to any? I dont see you posting in the top 4 threads.
    Now playing real formats.

  16. #36
    Poxlol
    tylerwylie's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Gambit, for a budget version of the deck (2 Sinkholes, no white splash), the deck looks really strong. Are you playing it tom too? Good luck man.

    Tyler, I really wish you would try Ghostly Prison and run atleast 3 Urborg along with Cabal Pit and other goodies (Flagstones maybe). Plus a couple more slots to hate goblins in the side. But otherwise, the build looks excellent. Best of luck.
    I did try Ghostly Prison, and I don't think I need Urborg, Cabal Pit may go in, but Prison's were too clunky for me.

  17. #37

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living View Post
    I dont think your list is a step backward at all. Infact I think it matches the ones that have been most extensively developed in the Pox thread. The only change I would insist is -1 Pox +1 Innocent Blood. Of course you should pick up your last 2 Sinkholes as well.

    Id be interested in hearing how Clarks version Vaka Pox does in real tournaments. Have you been taking it to any? I dont see you posting in the top 4 threads.
    It's getting tiresome hearing you go out of your way to attack this deck every oppurtunity you get.

    You've made your views on splashing white known now many many times.

    Who cares that Vindicate singlehandedly immediately (as opposed to having to wait 3 turns with Keg) lets this deck deal with virtually every card it hates seeing on the other side of the board, be it Crucible, Aether Vial, all while doubling as land destruction and bringing your land destruction suite to a very potent 20-22. Who cares that Ghostly Prison singlehandedly lets you shut down aggro decks of all forms. I dont know what your reasons for not splashing a color that adds so much resiliency to the deck are, maybe you don't have the cards, maybe it just doesn't feel right to you. Whatever they are, why continue to post in this thread. There's a perfectly good monoblack Pox thread with excellent builds where you can post. Why not just post there instead?

  18. #38
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    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    By the way, I take all credit for convincing Clark Kant to go back to White, go check the SCG older Pox threads. Anywho.

    Vindicate alone is worth the splash, I don't know about Ghostly Prison, I have them, I like them, but I'd much rather not have to worry about my white mana and focus on disruption. You need Rancid Earth AND Powder Keg to fill in the slot that Vindicate feels.

  19. #39

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Yeah tyler, you definately deserve props for suggesting white.

    If you don't play in a meta where Prison is as often useful (a meta without as much fast aggro), then of course you should run Duress or something in place of that.

    Bane.

    Builds have variations all the time. Look at thresh, some builds run 3 Pithing Needle, some don't run any. Some run Daze, some run Stifle etc. This is fine because the variations all serve similar functions. But when you're talking about dropping a color entirely, a card that when dropped turns the deck from one with 20 ld effects, to one that 16 or less, you really are messing with the strategy of the deck, and it's best to discuss it in a seperate forum. By analogy, compare UGW Thresh to UGR Thresh, they're both very distinct decks with a lot of differening strategies and desrve differnt threats. UGR runs a much bigger creature destruction suite for one.

    Also, just because I don't have the means and don't in a location where I can readily drive for hours to play in a large tournament, doesn't make testing against very expereienced players any less valid. Most any deck can luck into a bye or two, luck into a couple of favorable matchups, and top 8 at a tournament, but having these results hold up in testing, I think that 's a stronger gauge of the deck.

  20. #40

    Re: [Deck] Vaka Pox

    Yeah tyler, you definately deserve props for suggesting white.

    If you don't play in a meta where Prison is as often useful (a meta without as much fast aggro), then of course you should run Duress or something in place of that.

    Bane.

    Builds have variations all the time. Look at thresh, some builds run 3 Pithing Needle, some don't run any. Some run Daze, some run Stifle etc. This is fine because the variations all serve similar functions. But when you're talking about dropping a color entirely, a card that when dropped turns the deck from one with 20 ld effects, to one that 16 or less, you really are messing with the strategy of the deck, and it's best to discuss it in a seperate forum. By analogy, compare UGW Thresh to UGR Thresh, they're both very distinct decks with a lot of differening strategies and desrve differnt threats. UGR runs a much bigger creature destruction suite for one.

    Also, just because I don't have the means and don't live in a location where I can readily drive to a large tournament, doesn't make testing against very expereienced players any less valid. Most any deck can luck into a bye or two, luck into a couple of favorable matchups, and top 8 at a tournament (look at Madness), but having solid results that hold up in testing, I think that 's a much stronger gauge of the deck.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 04-28-2007 at 12:44 PM.

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