Legacy Countersliver
"Slivers are evil and slivers are sly; And if you get eaten, then no one will cry." - Mogg children's rhyme.
A Brief History of Countersliver (or "Back in the Day...")
In 1999, Chris Senhouse and his team shook up the Extended format by garnering several top 8 PTQ berths with their “House of Slivers” creation, which was basically a port of the well-known Type 2 Countersliver deck. Employing the ever-potent trio of Crystalline, Muscle and Winged Sliver as his primary win condition, Senhouse filled out the rest of the deck with counterspells, card-drawers and utility spells. The deck was well-equipped to handle the powerhouse Extended decks of the time, with Crystalline/Worship lock to frustrate Sligh, countermagic to thwart High Tide combo and countermagic + disenchants to combat Necropotence. While Senhouse's initial version ran just three colors (UWG), the deck eventually evolved (with the help of other deck innovators) into a 4-color variant with black for Hibernation Sliver, Duress and most importantly, the overpowered (and now banned) Demonic Consultation. Countersliver continued to have good success until mid-2000, at which point it fell out of favor due to shifts in the Extended metagame. Once the Revised dual lands rotated out of Extended in 2002, the Countersliver archetype rotated out with them.
Put out to pasture in the Legacy format, Countersliver languished in obscurity for several years, barely played, but not quite forgotten. Around 2006, it reemerged as "MeatHooks," a moniker derived from the pointy appearance of the sliver appendages. Though it was never considered a Tier 1 power, it managed to gain some traction in the metagame for a while. Employing Plated Sliver alongside the usual cadre of Crystalline/Muscle/Winged, the deck's primary appeal was that it was very strong against Goblins, which was considered the strongest deck in the format at the time. However, nothing lasts, and it wasn't long before Goblins began to fade from power. As Goblins receded from prominence, Countersliver began to lose relevance. At the center of this was WotC's commitment to printing increasingly powerful creatures, such as Tarmogoyf. As individual creatures became stronger, more efficient, and fully capable of winning games on their own, the hive strategy of slivers became less and less enticing. However, WotC wasn't done with slivers, and with M14 and M15 came a batch of new sliver cards for us to play with. M14 was particularly bountiful, providing highly useful new slivers in the form of Galerider, Predatory, and Syphon. Combined with the printing of Cavern of Souls and Sliver Hive to bolster a traditionally fragile manabase, there may now be enough tools to breathe life back into this dormant archetype.
Building Countersliver
Any good Countersliver deck starts with blue and white, because Crystalline Sliver. Then you add green to give the deck the muscularity that it needs. You could stop there and have a potent countersliver deck. However, many would argue that the best version of the deck is UWGB, with black being added for access to Hibernation Sliver and Syphon Sliver. Below, I have provided some sample deck lists:
Bant Hooks (Uwg)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Sliver Hive
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Standstill
1 Swan Song
1 Ponder
2 Swords to PlowsharesPatraw Countersliver (Uwgb)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
1 Winged Sliver
4 Aether Vial
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 IslandCup O' Slivers (Uwgb)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
2 Ancient Ziggurat
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground SeaVolt's Suggested Build (Uwgb)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
3 Muscle Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
4 AEther Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Sliver Hive
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
SIDEBOARD:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Containment Priest
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Harmonic Sliver
1 Hydroblast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
1 Submerge
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Vapor Snag
Optimizing the Manabase
You should have 15-17 lands that produce or fetch color. This includes basics, duals, fetches, Caverns, and Hives. Then you can add any number of Mutavaults (highly recommended) and Wastelands (optional) that you want on top of that. Typically, the deck runs 20-21 lands, altogether.
Cavern of Souls: An absolute godsend for this deck. Makes your slivers uncounterable. Play 4 if you got em. If you don't got em, get em. They're too good.
Sliver Hive: Another boon to your manabase, in that it's a painless City of Brass for casting slivers. You will rarely have an opportunity to use the secondary ability, but that's okay.
Mutavault: A land that becomes a sliver? Yes please. Make room for 3-4.
Wasteland: Combines well with Aether Vial, denying your opponent mana while you use Vial to cheat your slivers into play. That said, Mutavaults should be preferred, and it's difficult to make room for both. Maybe a 3-2 split if you just gotta.
basic lands: Always include a basic Island. This will often be the first land you fetch in the face of Wastelands. Island + cavern/hive casts every 2cc spell in the deck. If you're playing Bant Slivers, I would also recommend including a basic Plains. Never a basic forest, though.
Automatic Maindeck Cards
Aether Vial: Great for color-fixing and combat trickery. Also largely invalidates your opponent’s Counterbalance-Top strategy. Automatic 4-of.
Crystalline Sliver: The backbone of the deck and still the best sliver ever printed. Listen to your opponent groan as Crystalline comes into play. Automatic 4-of.
Hibernation Sliver: For the 4-color variant, of course. Provides resilience to Terminus and Wrath effects. Can also serve as a poor man's Crystalline, allowing individual slivers to dodge spot removal. Unfortunately, the M10 rule changes put an end to the "damage on the stack" trickery that was arguably Hibernation Sliver's greatest quality. Still, the ability to declare a block, then bounce the sliver back to your hand before damage is assessed can be quite useful. Not only when dealing with large goyfs and the like, but also when dealing with creatures equipped with Umezawa's Jitte.
Sinew Sliver/Muscle Sliver/Predatory Sliver: Make your slivers beefy! Start with 4 Predatory, then fit in as many Sinews and Muscles as you can.
Galerider Sliver: The coup de gras. Break stalemates by flying over your opponent’s creatures or Moat effect.
Mutavault: A perfect addition to the deck. Provides colorless mana when needed, and becomes a 2/2 sliver when activated. The fact that it's colorless can come in handy against Mother of Rune shenanigans, or if you need to block a Progenitus in a pinch.
Brainstorm, Force of Will: These are Legacy staples for good reason.
Cards Worth Considering for Maindeck
Chalice of the Void: A bit of an experiment at the moment, but Merfolk has had some success with this plan. The idea is to swap out Brainstorms for Chalices and shut off your opponent's 1cc spells.
Swords to Plowshares: Used to be an automatic 4-of, but the times have changed. More and better slivers have been printed, and it has become reasonable to play fewer Plows or forgo them altogether.
Daze: Used to be considered a very important card in the deck, largely because it helped with sticking turn 1 Aether Vial and turn 2 Crystalline. Its value has diminished with the printing of Cavern of Souls, which makes your opponent's countermagic irrelevant. Also, as Caverns, Hives, and Mutavaults have pushed islands out of the manabase, the odds of Daze being a dead card in your hand have increased. Still, it's an option.
Harmonic Sliver: A great answer for Affinity, MUD/Stax, and CB-Top decks. Especially effective when combined with Hibernation Sliver for bounce/recursion. Can be awkward when the only available target is your own Aether Vial.
Winged Sliver: Largely obsoleted by Galerider Sliver, but there's a valid argument to be made for wanting to play one as a 5th Galerider.
Syphon Sliver: Deserves very strong consideration for 4c builds. So strong that I nearly put this in the Automatic Maindeck Cards section. Giving all your slivers Lifelink will immediately change the complexion of many games. Races you were losing suddenly swing to your favor.
Dark Confidant: Might be viable with the inclusion of Syphon Sliver to offset the loss of life. However, it's probably just going to draw all that removal that would otherwise sit uselessly in your opponent's hand because of Crystalline/Hibernation.
Phantasmal Image: Best when copying a sinew/muscle/predatory sliver. It doesn't target, so you can copy any sliver, even with Crystalline in play. Can also copy your opponent's Marit Lage or other huge creature in a pinch.
Standstill: This is one of the few pure card advantage options available to this deck, which makes it attractive. However, care must be taken to only cast it in situations that are advantageous to you.
Envelop, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Stifle, Swan Song: If you’re looking to squeeze more counter-magic into the deck, you should probably be looking at these spells. Each has its strengths and weaknesses, and I can’t definitively endorse one over the other, though the consensus is probably with Spell Pierce. Stifle combines well with Wasteland, if you're playing them. Envelop is great against most combo and Control decks. Spell Pierce is just generally useful, but it isn't a hard counter. Consider what kind of metagame you’re trying to combat and make your choice accordingly.
Pithing Needle: Common namings would include Pernicious Deed, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Sensei’s Divining Top, Karakas, Umezawa's Jitte, planeswalkers.
Ponder: Recent countersliver lists have gone away from this card. I think that may be a mistake, as it helps fix suboptimal draws. It helps you dig out of 1-land hands, find Crystalline early, then Syphon or Galerider.
Wasteland: Best when combined with Stifle and/or Standstill.
Duress, Thoughtseize: Reasonable choices if you’re playing 4c and looking for more proactive disruption. Thoughtseize is more playable in conjunction with Syphon Sliver.
Cards NOT Worth Considering for Maindeck
Path to Exile: Given that even Swords to Plowshares has been falling out of favor, it's hard to imagine playing this card. Perhaps as a sideboard card, to bring in against decks with no basics.
Necrotic Sliver: Paying 6 mana for a Vindicate is way too expensive.
Virulent Sliver: With 12 Muscle/Sinew Slivers available to us, you're almost always going to be able to kill your opponent with 20 damage before you kill him with 10 poison counters.
Umezawa’s Jitte: If only Crystalline Sliver gave Hexproof instead of Shroud. Ah well.
Counterbalance & Sensei’s Divining Top: At a glance, the mana-curve of Countersliver seems to work well with this strategy. The difficulty is that there simply isn't enough room to fit a decent suite of slivers alongside the CounterTop engine.
Sideboard Options
Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, Planar Void, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Krosan Grip, Vindicate, Serenity, Harmonic Sliver, Syphon Sliver, Talon Sliver, Darkheart Sliver, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Moat, Worship, Chill, Hydroblast, Blue Elemental Blast, Burrenton Forge-Tender, Stifle, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Annul, Divert, Misdirection, Flusterstorm, Steel Sabotage, Swan Song, Gilded Drake, Meddling Mage, Containment Priest, Runed Halo, Gaddock Teeg, Duress, Thoughtseize, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Submerge, Mind Harness, Orim's Chant, Ensnare, Path to Exile.
How to Sideboard
This deck is built in such a way that you rarely want to take out more than 4-5 cards, so build your sideboard appropriately. Don't put 7 cards in your sideboard for one specific matchup, unless you know exactly what to board out for them.
Slivers are how you win. Avoid taking out more than a couple of them out when sideboarding, unless you're replacing them with other creatures, i.e. swapping out Crystallines for Ethersworn Canonists against certain combo decks. Which slivers you board out depends on the matchup. Sometimes Crystalline, sometimes Galerider, maybe a Muscle; just don't go crazy.
Dazes can come out for something better, especially if you're on the draw.
It's sometimes appropriate to side Swords to Plowshares out. Should be pretty obvious when.
FAQ
Q: Should I keep this 1-land hand?
A: Maybe. Generally, you want to throw back 1-land hands, unless you have an Aether Vial. If you have a Ponder and an island or fetch, that may be an acceptable keep as well. Be warned, however, that trying to work your way out of a 1-land hand with Brainstorm is not recommended. If you miss, you lose.
Q: What about creature tutors? Like Living Wish, or Eladamri's Call?
A: It's been tried. They're too slow.
Q: Merfolk does is better.
A: That isn't a question. I can tell because your voice didn't go up at the end. But, yeah, okay, maybe. What of it?
Q: What about red?
A: For what? Striking Sliver? Hunter Sliver? Lightning Bolt? Nah. Not worth it.
Q: What about this really awesome sliver that costs 4 or 5 mana?
A: Gosh, that's a really neat sliver, Timmy. Unfortunately, it's too slow and difficult to get into play. Even 3cc slivers are mostly unplayable, with Harmonic and Syphon being the rare exceptions.
Q: Slivers are the coolest!
A: Again, not a question. But yes, yes they are.
Matchups
Most of the following is based on second-hand reporting right now. Results are for a Uwgb list similar to the Patraw list above. I have only tested a handful of these matchups myself. I will update as I am able.
Bad: Storm, Mud, BR Reanimator, NicFit
50/50: Goblins, Sneak and Show, Elves, Infect, Burn, Canadian Thresh
Good: Reliquary Retreat, DnT, 4c Cascade, Merfolk, Miracle, Pox, BUG Delver
Tournament History & Proven Lists
Click here for results.
Credits
Chris Lennon (Volt)
James Hammer (Pinder)
Brian Crownhart (Maverick676)
John Thomas (xsockmonkeyx)
Gordy Goetz (Tosh)
Sam Blau (Kronicler)
and the rest of Team InfoNinja.
Also, special thanks to Kicks_422, who suggested 'MeatHooks' as an alternate deck name for Countersliver.
References & Additional Reading
The Secret Life of Slivers
A Sliver Story
Sliver Me Timbers
Sliver Anatomy
Prisoner of the Skep; or, How I Encountered the Slivers—and Lived to Tell the Tale!
Tales from the Crypt Sliver
Take the Sliver Quiz!
Sliver Pâté
This Hive is No Mos Eisley
A Sliver of a Chance
Last edited by Volt; 12-05-2015 at 03:27 PM.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
The obsession with calling this deck MeatHooks is disturbing. It is important to have name recognition in deck construction and by calling it MeatHooks you are going to confuse a lot of people.
Also, has it been suggested to get rid of the counterspells for the 4th portent and the third Stifle?
I notice you are running CoTV/Mage in the board, but you could just as easily run the counterbalance/Top engine board similar to what Jessie H. did with UGR thresh. Its not nearly as fragile as Mage and leaves you with the ability to keep in your Stifles and such.
Lets see...How can I ruin this thread? OH! I GOT IT!
I'll start by saying good job. It was well wrote and all the explanations were top notch. Good job to all the members of the ninjas who helped out with this deck. Personaly the only way I helped was by throwing out suggestions on how to beat it...Good job everyone and TAKE IT ALL THE WAY!
-Slay
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Last edited by Volt; 10-11-2008 at 11:43 PM.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
A huge improvement on the original post, which has been largely unreadable for ages due to the huge number of posts. Very well organized.
And hey, I may as well chime in about the name--I dislike it (scary reminder of Francis Bacon's art), but that doesn't matter. I know it's Countersliver, and since Countersliver is the name that I'm used to since I've played it for ages, Countersliver is what it is for me. Both are in the title, so it hardly matters what you guys in particular want to call it. Meathooks is an original title, and I commend you on that. :)
As far as Top/Counterbalance goes, it's a solid idea but ultimately depends on the matchups that you anticipate bringing it in for (largely combo, I'd imagine). I'Ve been running Top in my own version of the deck for some months now (since July, more or less) and I rather enjoy the ability to Brainstorm every turn--it turns into a whole of card advantage in the long run. On the other hand, Top alone doesn't favour the early game as much as it does the mid and late-games, so you run into the problem of boarding it vs. maindecking it. If it's in the board, then you run into the problem of what to sub out for it and Counterbalance in the matchups where you need it, and what you sub out is going to alter your most common converted mana costs--subbing out StP for Counterbalance, for example, leaves you short on one-mana spells and top-heavy on two-mana spells. The one advantage is that once Top is out, nothing at one-mana gets by you, such that subbing, say, StP for Top is quite feasible. I think that for Counterbalance, though, you're looking to replace a 2cc spell, which is harder to do--Winged Sliver, Daze, or Counterspell are pretty much the only feasible substitutions, and of those, you probably just want to take out 2 Counterspell and 1 Winged Sliver so as not to adversely affect yourself too much (but hey, what do I know--this is just off the cuff guesswork, I haven't tested a Counterbalance build either). I suppose that the other option is to maindeck both Counterbalance and Top, but I wonder if that's a good move--seems to split the strategy a little too much for game one.
Anyhow, enough theoretical musings on my part--I just want to say that I think that the inclusion of Counterbalance will largely depend upon sideboarding considerations.
Oh, and great job on the new post. Much easier on the old brain. :)
Nice Primer. I was trying to build the deck for a while, and this is a great help. Just wanted to ask though, How much do you like portent? why is is not 4 of as serum visions used to be?
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
For the record, if you don't like the name 'MeatHooks', call it Countersliver. I assure you no one will mind.
As for Portent over SV, we did a lot of discussing before we made the switch. We ultimately went with Portent because it's a little more versatile and gives you better card selection. With Serum Visions, it's a blind draw, and then you look at the top 2. With Portent, you get to see all three cards first and make a choice accordingly. Sure, you don't get to draw the card right away, but most of the time the spell we want is a reactive spell anyway, and it's okay to draw it during your opponent's turn. It also adds a ton of versatility in that you can target your opponent with it. This is actually pretty relevant. I've won games by Portenting relevant threats and answers off the top of my opponent's library to buy me an extra turn to seal the win. Also, Portent+Meddling Mage is sexy. All in all, Portent lets you choose more, which is a good thing in this deck.
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Originally Posted by Slay
The most important casting costs against Storm based combo (especially TES) are zero and two, as long as you can keep a land in the top three it should be very easy to set up a two cc spell in addition to that.
The problem I see with Counterspell is the need to resolve multiple 2cc creatures, putting a major strain on your mana base. I have no idea how to fix this but I feel it is certainly worth mentioning for deck discussion and future development. Also, has it been confirmed that 19 creatures is the correct #? It would be real nice to free up some of those slots for various answers and metagame foils.
Nice job on the new primer.
I don't think the Counterbalance/Top engine is a good one to fit into the SB for this deck mainly because we run far less draw than Thresh does, so there's a low chance of finding those pieces. I know Counterbalance is a back-breaking card, but it just doesn't fit the deck's structure.
I think that's a good thing, actually...Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen
Serum Visions has also been not performing as well as I hoped it would for me, and I've tried replacing it with Sleight of Hand or Portent. I like how you can get the card right away with Sleight of Hand (like a Sinew/Muscle for enough power to swing, or a Winged to fly over), but I agree with the versatility of Portent, along with a deeper dig. Have you guys tested Sleight of Hand as well?
Also, is there no need for a basic Forest? I run this manabase...
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
And I've found it very stable, oftentimes ending the game with my lands all basic (which looks really nice, considering it's a 3color deck, and my basics are Unhinged foil... ). Are the 4-ofs for each dual really needed?
I'm going to tweak my build into what you guys have posted above and test it a bit, though I can envision myself going -1 Daze, +1 Counterspell.
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I tested Slieght of Hand for a time, but I found that it wasn't quite as good as Portent (or even SV, really).
Since the printing of Sinew Sliver added so much redundancy, the deck relies even less on green than it used to. The basic forest isn't really neccessary, IMO, but you can run it if you want.Originally Posted by kicks_422
The Counterbalance/Top idea has been brought up before, and although I'm not sure if it will fit in the deck well, I'm at least willing to try. I think -2 Stifle, -2 Counterspell,-3 Portent, +3 Counterbalance, +4 SDT to start. I'm a little wary of replacing Portent with something that doesn't picth to Force, but it might be worth it. We'll see.
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Originally Posted by Slay
It just bothers me that in the match-ups that you want to bring in Harmonics, most of them run Wastelands. I'll try dropping the basic Forest and see how it goes.
I tried the Counterbalance-Top engine in MeatHooks the moment I saw how it was incorporated in Red Thresh. It didn't work out too well for me, mostly because of less library manipulation which makes Counterbalance too random without Top.
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Great primer!
Have you thought about Victual Sliver as a metagame choice against Burn/Sligh decks? The cost and the need to sac a Sliver might be prohibitive, but those decks run out of fuel very fast.
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Last edited by Volt; 10-11-2008 at 11:43 PM.
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If you are having problems with Burn decks I heartily endorse essence sliver as a two of in the board. If you drop it with as little as a crystaline and another sliver out you will win the game.
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If you act now we'll ship you an extra order of ShamHawks. THATS 8 ShamHawks FOR $19.99, you'll spend that much on falcons every month anyway.
The most recent preview card, Glittering Wish seems like it might find a place in the deck. While its not an instant, it allows access to cards (more specifically slivers) without having to MD them. Eledamri's call is nice, but you could maindeck a few wishes, SB a crystaline, harmonic and meddling mages and have easy access to them any matchup. In addition, this would virtually up your crystalline count to 6-7, depending on the # of wishes. THoughts?
It would seem that Absorb 1 is indeed preceeded by "all Slivers gain". Accordingly, it looks like it probably stacks, which is insane--but I guess we'll have to wait for the FS FAQ to be sure. Unfortunately, it's attached to a fairly expensive (4W) Sliver. While it would largely make our armies indestructible combat-wise, by the time we get it into play, I think that it will be just a win-more card. It's unfortunate, but I don't think that it will work very well.
The new Wish is definitely interesting. What would a Sliver wishboard look like, though? Would it have to be a composite wishboard (with some tutorable Slivers and regular hosers), or a pure wishboard? I'm inclined to go with the former, but what slivers would be in the wishboard? Harmonic, certainly--you could even probably eliminate them from the maindeck. Other than that, though (and Victual Sliver if it's necessary), the other golden slivers that we might want or need pretty much all need red or black mana (or a Vial) to cast (Necrotic, Acidic, Firewake, and Hibernation Slivers are the best contendors, and even then...). On the other hand, MD access to Meddling Mage could prove quite significant--in fact, that's probably the best reason to run the Wish. Unfortunately, I think that that's it downfall: Living Wish has already been tested and discarded, and in this case Glittering Wish would be strictly worse (since we'd only be using it to grab creatures, and Living Wish does that with a broader scope of creatures and for a less restrictive mana cost).
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Last edited by Volt; 10-11-2008 at 11:43 PM.
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QFT. Living Wish fetches everything we would ever want out of our sideboard without costing 2 colors, and it's still not good enough. If Glittering Wishes was an instant, it might warrant further consideration, but if the only multicolor cards we'd be searching for are creatures anyway, Living Wish is just better because it's easier to cast.
And how about that five mana for Lymph Sliver? And here I thought Wizards liked us.
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Originally Posted by Slay
Wizards likes Slivers, not us.
Living Wish is far greater than Glimmering Wish in a Sliver deck, though I think it would work only in an aggro Survival build.
Me and my buddies had an 8-man round-robin tournament within ourselves, and MeatHooks came out on top undefeated, beating UG Madness (aggro-control variant), Burn, UR Landstill, IGGY Pop (splash white), Deadguy, BW Aggro, and Red Thresh.
EDIT: I decided to drop Stifles entirely from the deck, since the match-ups that we need it are already good ones, and for those where we really need it, Pithing Needle does the job better. What are everyone's thoughts on this?
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