Page 68 of 68 FirstFirst ... 18586465666768
Results 1,341 to 1,350 of 1350

Thread: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

  1. #1341
    Global Moderator
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Copenhagen
    Posts

    2,274

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    i think you could consider hydroblast/blue blast in sb for blood moon. far fewer decks run back to basics, and the blasts would also increase your count on FoW pitch cards as well. because you have the 1 island, you could fetch it early on and it will give you outs, at least more than now. obviously still ideal to land a harmonic first, but this also gives you some free healing salves vs burn decks, and may coincidentally improve other matchups. (burning reanimator, goblins, past in flames (although prob will be discarded first), grixis delver)

    anyway it's not the best idea in the world, but if you are really afraid of blood moon then it's what you can play more easily.
    -rob

  2. #1342
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Yeah, I like to run a couple of blue blasts in my sideboard anyway. They get used.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  3. #1343
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2012
    Location

    Vienna, Austria
    Posts

    17

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Wow, Guys, you revived the Sliver discussion and might have won me over to your Side :)
    Now it's only a matter of when all my Slivers will arrive 'til I can play them in real life.

    I've been playing Merfolk intensively for the last few months, and tested Slivers as well. Both Decks play out quite similar - pros of Slivers being that they can stall Marit Lage for a few turns and that they don't fold to Punishing Fire once a Crystalline arrives on the Board (yeah, Merfolk has TNN, but 3 per Turn is less than 6+ per Turn). The things that set Merfolk apart from Slivers are: Card draw in Silvergill Adept and being mono-colored.
    And trust me when I'm saying this: In most Matchups, Silvergill Adept is the glue that makes Merfolk function. I've come as far as adding a Sygg, River Cutthroat in my Merfolk lists because that Card Draw on a body that gets bigger with lords is so unbelievably good.

    I definitely think that you guys are on a good way trying out Hibernation Sliver to have some sort of own "Card Draw" and combining it with Syphon Sliver to offset the Life Loss. While I wasn't a fan of Syphon at first glance, I found it really helpful myself.
    Kirby pointed out that you loose a lot of Slots trying to provide everything to your Slivers. That's true. But you're also not prone to something like: "I kill your only lord, now your creatures are small again AND don't have any evasion, so they can just stare at my Deathrite and Tarmogoyf". In Merfolk, one Removal Spell can kill your Pump AND Evasion. In Slivers, your opponent has to decide what he doesn't want. And you have more ways of protecting your key guys from Removal (12 in 4 Force, 4 Crystalline, 4 Hibernation, while Merfolk only has 4 Forces).

    The Manabase - especially with Sliver Hive in it - isn't shabby, too. You can cast every Sliver in the Deck with a Dual and a Cavern/Hive. I myself am still torn between 2 or 3 Hives - it depends on how many blue cards I want in my Sideboard.
    Yes, with Hive you loose out on blue-producing Lands for spells, which brings me to my next point: Brainstorm doesn't work like it's supposed to do in Slivers. At least not in a 4color Version that doesn't run Swords to Plowshares anymore. All it may do is shuffling unwanted Lands away. Merfolk could play like that too, but they don't. Why? Because this Deck is, in most cases, happy to flood out so that it can make full use of Mutavault (and/or Wasteland/Factory). And because simply laying dumb beaters that hit works out. Really, it does. And you'd be surprised how many Decks are just shut off by Chalice of the Void.

    Basically, what I'm proposing is to try to build Slivers like Merfolk 2.0 for now, make it work like that and then start to change it. Maybe that's not the right way for Slivers to go - in Modern, they became completely different, using Sedge Sliver, Manaweft Sliver and Collected Company, and can take a completely different approach at the game.
    In Legacy, the ability to completely dodge any form of removal could become Sliver's strength, at the price of being a bit slower than Merfolk (and having a worse manabase). I really like Ultrab77's approach, which really looks a lot like Merfolk (3 Chalice, 3 Image), in a good way.

    I am agreeing with Volt in the way that I don't have any delusions that Slivers could become DtB at once, but in my eyes, they have at least a chance to rise up to the level Merfolk's sitting at currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I like that sideboard, too, btw. I would stick with Ethersworn Canonist over Mindbreak Trap, I think. It's more versatile.
    Originally, I just wanted to answer to this comment, but I got carried away :P
    I'm rather torn if I just want counterspells in my board, or Hatebears as well. Storm will probably bring in Massacre nonetheless, if they play it, and Sneak and Show might also bring Pyroclasm. I agree with Ethersworn Canonist being more versatile than Trap, but it does nothing on it's own against Sneak and Show (and to some extent, Reanimator). So I'll test Meddling Mage in this spot - currently that's occupied by Negate.

    Keep the discussion going, guys. I'll follow you and try to get my thoughts in, too.

  4. #1344
    Global Moderator
    mistercakes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2009
    Location

    Copenhagen
    Posts

    2,274

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Khamul View Post
    Wow, Guys, you revived the Sliver discussion and might have won me over to your Side :)
    Now it's only a matter of when all my Slivers will arrive 'til I can play them in real life.

    I've been playing Merfolk intensively for the last few months, and tested Slivers as well. Both Decks play out quite similar - pros of Slivers being that they can stall Marit Lage for a few turns and that they don't fold to Punishing Fire once a Crystalline arrives on the Board (yeah, Merfolk has TNN, but 3 per Turn is less than 6+ per Turn). The things that set Merfolk apart from Slivers are: Card draw in Silvergill Adept and being mono-colored.
    And trust me when I'm saying this: In most Matchups, Silvergill Adept is the glue that makes Merfolk function. I've come as far as adding a Sygg, River Cutthroat in my Merfolk lists because that Card Draw on a body that gets bigger with lords is so unbelievably good.

    I definitely think that you guys are on a good way trying out Hibernation Sliver to have some sort of own "Card Draw" and combining it with Syphon Sliver to offset the Life Loss. While I wasn't a fan of Syphon at first glance, I found it really helpful myself.
    Kirby pointed out that you loose a lot of Slots trying to provide everything to your Slivers. That's true. But you're also not prone to something like: "I kill your only lord, now your creatures are small again AND don't have any evasion, so they can just stare at my Deathrite and Tarmogoyf". In Merfolk, one Removal Spell can kill your Pump AND Evasion. In Slivers, your opponent has to decide what he doesn't want. And you have more ways of protecting your key guys from Removal (12 in 4 Force, 4 Crystalline, 4 Hibernation, while Merfolk only has 4 Forces).

    The Manabase - especially with Sliver Hive in it - isn't shabby, too. You can cast every Sliver in the Deck with a Dual and a Cavern/Hive. I myself am still torn between 2 or 3 Hives - it depends on how many blue cards I want in my Sideboard.
    Yes, with Hive you loose out on blue-producing Lands for spells, which brings me to my next point: Brainstorm doesn't work like it's supposed to do in Slivers. At least not in a 4color Version that doesn't run Swords to Plowshares anymore. All it may do is shuffling unwanted Lands away. Merfolk could play like that too, but they don't. Why? Because this Deck is, in most cases, happy to flood out so that it can make full use of Mutavault (and/or Wasteland/Factory). And because simply laying dumb beaters that hit works out. Really, it does. And you'd be surprised how many Decks are just shut off by Chalice of the Void.

    Basically, what I'm proposing is to try to build Slivers like Merfolk 2.0 for now, make it work like that and then start to change it. Maybe that's not the right way for Slivers to go - in Modern, they became completely different, using Sedge Sliver, Manaweft Sliver and Collected Company, and can take a completely different approach at the game.
    In Legacy, the ability to completely dodge any form of removal could become Sliver's strength, at the price of being a bit slower than Merfolk (and having a worse manabase). I really like Ultrab77's approach, which really looks a lot like Merfolk (3 Chalice, 3 Image), in a good way.

    I am agreeing with Volt in the way that I don't have any delusions that Slivers could become DtB at once, but in my eyes, they have at least a chance to rise up to the level Merfolk's sitting at currently.



    Originally, I just wanted to answer to this comment, but I got carried away :P
    I'm rather torn if I just want counterspells in my board, or Hatebears as well. Storm will probably bring in Massacre nonetheless, if they play it, and Sneak and Show might also bring Pyroclasm. I agree with Ethersworn Canonist being more versatile than Trap, but it does nothing on it's own against Sneak and Show (and to some extent, Reanimator). So I'll test Meddling Mage in this spot - currently that's occupied by Negate.

    Keep the discussion going, guys. I'll follow you and try to get my thoughts in, too.
    if you're afraid of massacre, don't play your tundra
    -rob

  5. #1345
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    It seems we can't stop comparing ourselves to that mono-blue deck that runs all the fish-tailed dudes. Okay, fair enough. After all, if you were to show a random player the contents of our deck, minus the slivers and multi-color lands, they would undoubtedly assume we were playing Merfolk.

    On the matter of Silvergill Adept and card advantage... Yeah, it would be nice if we had a way to draw extra cards. Since we don't, we have to settle for virtual card advantage. Crystalline and Hibernation tend to invalidate any removal spells the opponent might draw, and once we assemble a decent team on the board, our opponent's creatures tend to become moot.

    It seems we all agree Syphon Sliver is a valuable addition to the deck. Because, unfortunately, assembling a team of slivers can sometimes seem ponderously slow in this format. As a matter of course, we find ourselves having to "catch up" to our opponent in many games. Syphon Sliver is often what bails us out and makes that strategy work.

    On the manabase and the matter of To B(rainstorm) or Not to B(rainstorm)... Running 4 Cavern of Souls is an absolute no-brainer. Right? Right. Moving on. Sliver Hives are obviously a nice additional city-of-brass for casting slivers. Unfortunately, as I've previously noted, I find that playing so many sliver lands gets in the way of Brainstorm and any other colored non-sliver spells we might want to run. You can't depend on being able to reliably cast these spells when you only have 8-10 lands in the deck to do it with. You really need to get that count up to 12 or 13. And so we arrive at perhaps the main issue that divides us at the moment: Brainstorm or Sliver Hive, one of them has to go. For the time being, I've elected to forego the Hives in favor of more traditional lands. And it seems fine, really. It's like the manabase we used to run 6 years ago, plus Cavern of Souls. I don't have much trouble getting the slivers out of my hand. That said, y'all may still end up being right. Perhaps it's better to play Chalices for the chance of "just winning" on turn 2 sometimes. Or simply cram in as many slivers as we possibly can and to hell with "digging" and hand-sculpting. Just play those slivers out as fast we can and say "Deal with that!"

    ED: One last note, in regards to the Merfolk and slivers. I'll say this. It's not fun to play against Merfolk. Merfolk is certainly favored. You want to know why? It isn't just the island-walking; we could potentially race them, if it weren't for this one other card they play. Have you guessed what it is? It's Mutavault. Their mutavaults can always block our slivers, and they're always bigger. And there's really not a damn thing we can do about it, except hope they don't draw any.

    ED2: I'm leaving that last remark there as a monument to my stupidity, but striking it out so everybody immediately knows not to take it seriously.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  6. #1346
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Paris, France
    Posts

    486

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    ED: One last note, in regards to the Merfolk and slivers. I'll say this. It's not fun to play against Merfolk. Merfolk is certainly favored. You want to know why? It isn't just the island-walking; we could potentially race them, if it weren't for this one other card they play. Have you guessed what it is? It's Mutavault. Their mutavaults can always block our slivers, and they're always bigger. And there's really not a damn thing we can do about it, except hope they don't draw any.
    Are you serious ?
    Read again "Predatory Sliver", "Galerider" and think about our Mutavault (Sliver + Merfolk thing + Islandwalk) as well...

  7. #1347
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Are you serious ?
    Read again "Predatory Sliver", "Galerider" and think about our Mutavault (Sliver + Merfolk thing + Islandwalk) as well...
    Oh, heh, you're right. I had failed to consider the "Sliver creatures you control" thing. I guess I'm still stuck in 2010. Hm. That does change things. I wonder how much? *Fires up Cockatrice*

    ED: This is why it's good that we talk these things out here. I may occasionally say something embarrassingly dumb, but at least I learn something.

    ED2: So, yeah, now I think the Merfolk matchup might actually be favorable. Though I need play a larger sample of games to be sure.
    Last edited by Volt; 11-27-2015 at 12:43 PM.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  8. #1348
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

    Join Date

    Jul 2007
    Posts

    775

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    You're not the only one. There've been lists posted recently that call for 3 each of Muscle and Predatory. For Merfolk and the mirror (ha!), Predatory should be preferred.

    As a reminder, if someone Bolts your 2/2 Muscle, you can Vial in Crystalline in response to make the Bolt fizzle, right? Similarly if someone Wastes your Mutavault, you can Vial in Crystalline and animate Mutavault in response to make the Wasteland ability fizzle?
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  9. #1349
    Samurais suck
    Volt's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2006
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    1,884

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)

    Quote Originally Posted by kirbysdl View Post
    You're not the only one. There've been lists posted recently that call for 3 each of Muscle and Predatory. For Merfolk and the mirror (ha!), Predatory should be preferred.

    As a reminder, if someone Bolts your 2/2 Muscle, you can Vial in Crystalline in response to make the Bolt fizzle, right? Similarly if someone Wastes your Mutavault, you can Vial in Crystalline and animate Mutavault in response to make the Wasteland ability fizzle?
    Correct and correct.

    On that note, here's a little tip that occurred to me recently. If you have Crystalline + Mutavault on the board, and you're counting on being able to block something with the Mutavault, but you only have one spare mana open to activate it, and it's possible your opponent could rip Wasteland, you should activate the Mutavault during your opponent's Upkeep.


    THIS THREAD IS BEING RETIRED. DO NOT POST.
    Last edited by Volt; 12-05-2015 at 03:42 PM.
    Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.

  10. #1350

    Re: [Deck] Countersliver (MeatHooks)


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)