[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Machinus]

A deck which has defined Legacy for most of it's existence, Vial Goblins is likely to remain a strong tournament choice until combo and hate can bring it's presence to lower levels.


//Tempo Generators
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief

//Removal
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator

//Draw Engine
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

//Damage
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Land Destruction
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Mana
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
5 Mountain
2 Mountain/Red Dual

//Open slots
3 X


For the open slots, many players run artifact removal in the form of Goblin Tinkerer or Tin-Street Hooligan. Other such potential cards are Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Siege-Gang Commander, or the 24th land. In splash versions, this slot has also been Swords to Plowshares, Disenchant, or Cabal Therapy. There are several choices for the sideboard: Red Elemental Blast, Pyrokinesis, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pyrostatic Pillar, Pithing Needle, Krosan Grip, etc. Which of these you choose basically depends on the meta, but strong anti-hate and anti-combo elements are usually always necessary.

Much has been written about this deck in reports and articles (one more coming next month), so I won't repeat that discussion.

Modern Goblins Primer, Part I
Deck History
Old Source Thread


Some basic matchup analysis:

Goblins is just over parity against Threshold, but UGR with 4 Pyroclasms post-board can be tough. White threshold is usually easier to handle, as WW is easier to stop (for Tividar's Crusade).

Goblins also has tough matchups with RGB Survival and B/R Suicide, again due to very strong hate such as Pyroclasm and Engineered Plague. These weapons are one reason why Goblins' numbers have been dropping (slowly, but) steadily.

Goblins can have a strong post-board anti-combo game, but this depends on having relevant draws and a strong sideboard. Goblins will lose a lot of game 1s to combo, especially Tendrils-based decks.

Goblins has very little trouble dealing with most Control decks. Those not blue-based have advantages since they can deploy better hate, but for the most part control does not have strong tools against this deck.


The big questions for this deck's future:

- What anti-combo elements are most consistent and effective for use in this deck?
- How can hate be reliably dealt with when it's in basically every single sideboard?
- Are new strategies necessary to outmaneuver ever-developing technology?

[Awesomator]

Eldariel, Tranquil Domain is a good card, however, having more outs against decks with Artifacts makes Grip the better choice in my opinion. Plagues hurt, but not bad enough to the point where you would need extra hate in. Grip is extremely versatile. Patron came in on so many of my matchups, and helped against pyroclasm, infest, swords, burn, basically good against almost any form of removal aside of mass removal. Tranquil Domain is awesome against enchantress, wombat, multiple plagues, as well as other decks. Grip may not be quite as good in these particular matchups, but is much better in most matchups. The reason I took out the two Patron of the Akki's from my board is because the 4th grip is about as good against plague as patron, it kills chill, and it will most likely help more in general. The 4th Pillar gives a better combo match, and helps a lot against most decks running plague, aside from Red Death. Also I will note that I hate the list they have up reaaaaally bad. I don't like only 2 taiga, you would have to run a minimum of three, I prefer 4 with 6 fetch lands total (mires over foothills, Most players will name wooded foothills with needle). I would definitely run 3 siege gang at the GP, no less. 2 MD Tin street is excellent and I wish I had room for a third.

[Bardu]

Awesomator, what is your reasoning behind 3x Pyrokinesis SB rather than the full set? For reference I'd been running 3x Pyrostatic Pillar which IMO is a much weaker anti-combo weapon than Chalice. Otherwise, my decklist is the same as yours.

[BreathWeapon]

How good is Pillar against Tendrils? Pillar alone can't stop the opponent from using Tendrils to win, since IGG and Tendris are 4cc, aggro needs to do 4 more damage just for the soft lock, and that gives Tendrils the time to Brainstorm and Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns or at least Brainstorm with out suffering damage.

It doesn't seem to be significant against Tendrils with out a clock cast on the first turn, and even then that clock is going to be hard pressed to do 4 damage before turn 3. Is there something I'm missing here? Wastelands and Rishadan Ports? Rishadan Port doesn't seem to be fast enough, considering Pillar is a 2 drop, and Wasteland has to be used on turn one, setting back the Pillar to turn 3, or after the Pillar is cast, which is the same as Rishadan Port.

Granted, the opponent could do 2 points of damage to himself with his lands or have Plunge into Darkness, but is that something that Goblins should count on?

Wouldn't something along the lines of Leyline of the Void be better in the SB? It gives Goblins a double Time Walk for Tendrils to answer it, or it forces them to go for Diminishing Returns or Empty the Warrens, the first of which is random and the second of which isn't a win condition against aggro with out the first. Uncounterable 4cc discard pile hate is also solid in the Threshold match up, where it can't be prevented with their counter wall or removed with their Engineered Explosives, and it's bound to be useful against Reanimator or the rewording of Flash etc.

Pillar just seems to be a hold over from High Tide, where turn 4 and Storm 20 turned it into a hard lock, but Goblins can race High Tide and board in Red Elemental Blast as it is.

So, what's so great about Pillar? How is it being used to stop Tendrils?

[Bane of the Living]

Pillar is used for its versatility. Its a monster against Loam decks which are generally a bad match for you. Its great against thresh since everything in the deck aside from Enforcer will deal them 2 damage. Its great against combo since its a 2 drop. All the other anti combo in red/green/white is three mana or more aside from Orims Chant which is bad since you dont want to keep mana open waiting for combo. Its never ever easy for tendrils to combo out with Pillar on the board, they need to think about each spell before leading up to tendrils. It requires them to use tendrils instead of warrens, and requires they follow up a non lethal tendrils with a lethal one. 2 Pillars is usually gg and Pillar + CotV is also end game. The versatility of an enchantment hate card is also a nice option since your opponent needs an answer to enchantments, not just creatures and artifacts.

[Awesomator]

@Bardu- I don't run the full set of pyrokinesis, because Most aggro decks are already good/decent matchups. Tin Street is a huge deal in the Gob matchup. Focusing more on bad matchups is much more important imo. Goblins is very hard to play, and few can play it right, so when i play the mirror I try to take full advantage of the mistakes my opponents are making.

@breathweapon- Tendrils is not going to be a huge percentage of the field man, you really need to understand this. If I were to run leyline, I would actually need to dedicate a lot of the sb to it. Pillar helps with morebad or even matchups than Leyline. I would need to have leyline in my opening hand or else it's useless. Thresh is already a good matchup, but Leyline would help vs loam based control decks (which pillar already does). Pillar is good against decks more on the control side running E plague. Pillar is even good to just squeeze damage in. 2 pillars isn't always GG, but it is automatically at least 8 damage in, and that's if they have it in their hand. If a player doesn't have a burning wish in hand it is probably a definite GG, and if they get it off with tranquility, then they need to also be able to combo out and find another tutor if they didn't have two. There are much much better choices against tendrils than Pillar, however, Pillar helps in many matchups, and a versatile sideboard will take you a long way.

[BreathWeapon]

Considering the number of combo decks in the field is irrelevant when I'm the one using the combo deck; I just want to know whether or not Pillar is even a concern, since I've never lost to it in a tournament or encountered it online. Other people using Tendrils just seem to lose to Pillar because they're terrible; Burning Wish for an answer is pointless, because the deck can just Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns and go for it.

I understand Pillar is used because it affects Threshold as well as Aggro-Loam, but so does Leyline of the Void, and that card crushes Threshold and Aggro-Loam; it's turn zero, it's uncounterable, it's free, it's permanent, it's difficult to remove and it permits aggressive mulligans.

Just in testing, I haven't lost a game 3, assuming I win game 1 and lose game 2, against their turn one Lackey and turn two Pillar; 2 drops just don't seem to be good enough when you're on the draw, and counting on Pillar, Pillar or Pillar, Chalice is weak, because the odds aren't good, and they're still boarding in Shattering Spree and wishing for Hull Breach.

I'd just rather use something that is more consistent in that slot, Leyline of the Void pushes them into Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens, so you could board in Goblin Sharpshooters and take advantage of their plan B.

[galeng]

Hi. Im a new legacy player and I'm definitely most instested in goblins in this format since goblins have been my favourite creature type since Onslought (and even more now in Lorwyn). I also like the fact that a tribal creature based deck can still be competitive in legacy: the format of combo and thresh.

My goblins build right now is as follows:

Main Deck:
14 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Goblin King
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Goblin King
3 Flaring Pain
1 Goblin Tinkerer

Now I know the first thing youre thinking of is WTF no splash?! but I've done a lot of testing and have many reasons to show where it's not needed...

Goblin King vs. Engineered Plague
Common defense is a disenchant or duress. King does the job since it negates the plague's ability and it also has some other advantages: Tutorable with matron or drawable with ringleader, playable with lackey or vial (can't be countered), saves your goblins from the wipe before the plague is dropped (rather than waiting, then disenchanting), and lastly it helps with the affinity of the deck (and it attacks!).

Flaring Pain vs. Worship/CoP:Red
Play it when you can attack for lethal. Flashback if its countered.

Goblin Tinkerer vs. Pithing Needle/Jitte
Tutorable to get annoying artifacts out of the way.

Ive tried spashing and black tends to be the best due to cabal therapy efficiency, but it still isn't worth the cut on goblin count (assuming you main deck therapy) and a mana base that gets owned by Stifle, Pithing Needle and Wasteland. Plus the life loss on fetches can decide the game.

So in conclusion, how do you think I could improve the build? I don't know much about the metagame and I don't know everything that's out there so give me some input. Give me some suggestions and things the deck is weak against. The things im not so sure on is the maindeck king and sharpshooter and the sideboard pillar vs chalice. Any feedback is appreciated.

[Blacktail]

I can personally vouch for that build, I play against it constantly. My only suggestion is some needles for the board instead of the flaring pain. I really like the maindeck Jitte, it's won so many games that it shouldn't have.

Very solid

[galeng]

I can personally vouch for that build, I play against it constantly. My only suggestion is some needles for the board instead of the flaring pain. I really like the maindeck Jitte, it's won so many games that it shouldn't have.

Very solid

Pithing Needle is a really solid sb card I agree, but is it worth getting locked by prevent damage. I understand the needle can take out CoP, but Worship is still a problem. I'm seeing a lot of worship and Sphere of Law in sideboards, and I have to admit that it scares me.

[GreenOne]

Worship is still a problem. I'm seeing a lot of worship and Sphere of Law in sideboards, and I have to admit that it scares me.

In my Monored version (which i'm testing at the moment) I play Blood Moon(are they really going to draw the lonely basic plains they need to Worship? Will the play a creature before BloodMoon hits? Lots of ifs on their side) and Anarchy.

Anarchy may seem bad but it takes down sooo many things: CoP, Sphere of Law, Worship, Silver Knights, soltary priest, Solitary Confinament, Jotun Grunts, Serra Avenger, Mother of Runes, Meddling Mage, Geddok teeg, Humility, Mystic Enforcer, en-kor critters, exhalted angel, decree of justice tokens, Moat...
It just shines vs Enchantress, Angel Stompy, Rift and D&T.

Here's my list atm:
// Lands
14 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [TE] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [U] Goblin King
SB: 2 [JU] Fledgling Dragon (My choice vs plague, moat and pyroclasm)

I'd like to add some price of progress as a surprise effect - alternative win, but can't find room.

Advantages of the monored version:
- You start from 20 life instead of 18.
- You can't color-screw. This happens rarely with the maindeck, but it happens post-side
- Wasteland - You're less vulnerable
- Stifle - Being timewalked vs tempo decks is not good I hear
- Blood Moon - A beating in a LOT of matchups (Thresh, Landstill, 43Lands, Loam, Breakfast), it has nice synergy with Goblin King.

Disadvantages:
- Limited card choices, both in goblin and non-goblin cards.


@Thorn of Amethyst:
That card was surprisingly good in many matchups.
- It slows down control decks and you can use your mana disruption in a more efficient way.
- It hoses storm combo MD if you're on the play.
- It's good vs Enchantress.
- Nice vs D&T
- It was even quite good vs Loam decks (laying Geddon with 5 lands in play and loam that costs 3 can be difficult)

Matchups where it sucks:
- Ichorid
- Breakfast
- Mirror

Unfortunately couldn't test vs Thresh..
G2 Thorn is a little less one-sided. That can be an issue, sometimes.

[Benie Bederios]

Anarchy may seem bad but it takes down sooo many things: ..., Geddok teeg, ...

No it don't

On a serious note, I played against the deck and the deck looks pretty promissing.

Cutting down to three Mogg's is curious though. It's a nice creature against Ichorid and Breakfast. Both are probably though games G1, so having a 1CC speedbump for them is nice.

BB

[Maveric78f]

To give the double Splash a try :

// Lands (23)
4 [7E] Mountain (1)
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Plateau
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures (30)
4 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
1 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie

// Spells (6)
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [LRW] Crib Swap

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Crib Swap
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [B] Disenchant
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant

I find white better against combo and to provide removal (Crib Swap is nice, disenchant too) but the recursion guy (Wort) is too precious to be ignored. Orim's chant is better than any discard spell.

In a perfect world I would have maindecked Thorn and SBed Chalice at its place, but we all know that gob's slots are very tight, and I don't want to design my all SB to it. A possibility would be -1sharpy, -1pilly, -1incinerator and -1 fanatic. But I'm not sure yet.

[Humphrey]

1. I think Razerunners are crap

2. I side Relic vs. Fanatics and Incinerators obviously

[Jayzonious]

I'd like to think I'd side out either my 3 instigators for relic against tempothresh, less spell snare/fire targets.

[FoulQ]

I'd like to think I'd side out either my 3 instigators for relic against tempothresh, less spell snare/fire targets.

It might be irrelevant, but if you are not playing warren weirding they will probably be siding out spell snare against you anyway.

[Jayzonious]

True that

[Jayzonious]

I rather correct myself than seeming like an idiot.

Replacing Gempalm Incinerators with Relic would be more effective than Warren Instigator Vs. Tempo Thresh. They run 8 creatures, 4 untargetable, the other 4 (Goyfs) you would need like 5+ gobs in play for it to kill, which would make it quite "win more".

Hands down the proper choice.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Can someone please describe to me how anyone expects Instigator to ever connect?