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Thread: [DTB] Vial Goblins

  1. #21

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Root Maze,

    Artifacts and lands come into play tapped

    It's just the opponent's artifacts and lands, the Goblins and Haste are unaffected.

    No one is using Root Maze to replace a SB card, I'm using Root Maze to replacing Mogg Fanatic, so the rest of the anti-combo SB cards aren't competing for slots.

    High Tide has 8 Fetchlands here, and so did the original lists, so that's what I'm going on, and regardless of Turnabout and Reset, the opponent is still losing at least one land on the turn he is going off, two mana with High Tide, and he's getting double tapped for each Fetchland.

    TES gets its Chrome Mox and Lotus Petals tapped before the combo and during the combo, so he's losing either storm count or mana count and then he's losing the mana count from the Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal after a Diminishing Returns and a land drop. CIPing the artifacts and passing the turn also allows Tin-Street Hooligan to turn into a Stone Rain.

    Maze isn't GG against combo, but unlike Pillar, it has a definite affect on their game plan, costs one instead of two, can be MDed and is one sided (considering Fetchlands).

    It loses ground against aggro, unless the opponent is using 8 Fetchlands for thinning, but it raises the percentages against the rest of the field as far as I can tell.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Root Maze is terrible because it doesn't shut off LED, and thus, doesn't hurt them much more than you.

    It's ok against Solidarity, but you'd rather have something that helps both match-ups.
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  3. #23
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    Root Maze is terrible because it doesn't shut off LED, and thus, doesn't hurt them much more than you.

    It's ok against Solidarity, but you'd rather have something that helps both match-ups.

    I can't believe we are talking about root maze and land grant in Vial Goblins. I think sideboarding in 4 pillar and 4 chalice against solidarity is pretty strong that usually says game over if they let them hit play. This is especially true if you can resolve a Chalice for 1.

    I have never lost to Solidarity in a tournament when I was running Vial Goblins. As long as you mulligan aggressively and have a decent clock, it is very hard for solidarity to win. This is especially true after game 1 when you get to board your 8 hate cards against them.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Breathweapon, it makes your land come into play tapped, which slows your clock down. Tendrils and solidarity can win it just about as quickly due to rituals and things like that. Solidarity doesn't need the land untapped, they just need the land in play.

    NickRit, you're playing against bad solidarity players. It's not a good matchup, it's pretty much a coin flip.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomator View Post
    Breathweapon, it makes your land come into play tapped, which slows your clock down. Tendrils and solidarity can win it just about as quickly due to rituals and things like that. Solidarity doesn't need the land untapped, they just need the land in play.

    NickRit, you're playing against bad solidarity players. It's not a good matchup, it's pretty much a coin flip.

    I'm taking my match records and Tenniebopper's. We have both never lost to Solidarity in a tournament. We have played against good Solidarity players, so don't give me that.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    I don't think so, either that or you guys rarely play against solidarity. If you test enough, you have to lose sometime, that should be obvious. I've never lost to solidarity in a sanctioned match, that doesn't mean I beat it 100% of the time. I tested about 22 games vs Gearhart and they were about even.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomator View Post
    I don't think so, either that or you guys rarely play against solidarity. If you test enough, you have to lose sometime, that should be obvious. I've never lost to solidarity in a sanctioned match, that doesn't mean I beat it 100% of the time. I tested about 22 games vs Gearhart and they were about even.

    I'm not saying that Goblins beats Solidarity 100% of the time. I'm just simply saying the 2 best Goblin players in Syracuse have never lost to Solidarity in an sanctioned tournament setting (match wise).

    I think the matchup does favor Goblins 55/45. A lot of times it comes down to the player skill level and if they know how to correctly play the matchup.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Depends on what build they're running on whether or not it's favorable. With red splash = good for us because they have non basics in the deck now. BEB is really bad for us, which Gearhart boarded in 4 in our game.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomator View Post
    Depends on what build they're running on whether or not it's favorable. With red splash = good for us because they have non basics in the deck now. BEB is really bad for us, which Gearhart boarded in 4 in our game.
    Once again, thank you for being the voice of reason. Your lesbian points now exceed Pinder's. Regrettably, I still don't know what they're redeemable for.

    As an owner and regular player of both Goblins and Solidarity as my two longest-standing Legacy decks, I can tell you straight blue Solidarity, red splash excluded, has the edge. With the Red Splash, I believe Goblins has the slight edge (Not enough testing to be sure), which is why I don't play the red splash.

    I'm on the reverse end of this and have never lost to Goblins in a sanctioned match playing Solidarity (4-0.) I've never dropped a game one, and I usually only drop game ones in testing when I'm on the draw, they drop a Lackey, and I don't have a Force. There are rare and bizarre exceptions where Solidarity just gets mad at me for not taking it to dinner and buying it flowers and just refuses to give me any cards I need ever, but this happens in any match as much as Goblins. I think I'm 4-3 in second games. I might be 4-2. I can't remember. The games I lost postboard I lost to Lackey followed by Chalice/Pillar when I didn't have enough countermagic to back it up.

    Hydroblast is amazing against Goblins postboard, but if Lackey doesn't hit, Remand is amazing preboard. Solidarity players will often let you resolve your Piledriver, then Remand everything that follows it and make your Driver harmless. By the time you're swinging for decent damage, they have what they need.

    Interestingly, I'm also 2-0 in sanctioned matches with Goblins against Solidarity. This leads me to the conclusion that most Solidarity players are worse than most people think and that only a handful of people (Or in Alabama's metagame, people named Tacosnape) are capable of piloting the deck well enough to capitalize.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    Root Maze,

    Artifacts and lands come into play tapped

    It's just the opponent's artifacts and lands, the Goblins and Haste are unaffected.

    I'd like to point out a flaw in this statement.... To do this, I will refer to Gatherer and the Oracle text.

    Rules Text (Oracle): Artifacts and lands come into play tapped.
    It is NOT just the opponents artifacts and lands, it is yours as well. It's a symmetrical effect because the deck really cannot abuse it and make it one sided. Even then, it fails to turn off LED, so it still leaves them with decent acceleration and leaves you playing with your self. Land Grant I refuse to even acknowledge that you mentioned it.

    Please stop making our heads hurt..
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  11. #31

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel View Post
    I'd like to point out a flaw in this statement.... To do this, I will refer to Gatherer and the Oracle text.



    It is NOT just the opponents artifacts and lands, it is yours as well. It's a symmetrical effect because the deck really cannot abuse it and make it one sided. Even then, it fails to turn off LED, so it still leaves them with decent acceleration and leaves you playing with your self. Land Grant I refuse to even acknowledge that you mentioned it.

    Please stop making our heads hurt..
    Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands, so it's still "one sided." Not turning off LED isn't that bad, it still turns off their other 8 accelerants and their land drop during a Diminishing Returns.

    Find a better MD card against combo that isn't garbage against the rest of the field.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands, so it's still "one sided."
    I am pretty sure plenty of people are packing 6 fetches in their goblin builds.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands, so it's still "one sided." Not turning off LED isn't that bad, it still turns off their other 8 accelerants and their land drop during a Diminishing Returns.

    Find a better MD card against combo that isn't garbage against the rest of the field.

    I'm not quite sure what exactly you oare talking about when it comes to the statement that "Goblins isn't using an artifact accelerant or fetchlands". I play Vial Goblins quite a bit and I run the 4 Aether Vial plus the full 8 fetch lands which are standard in any Goblins build.

    If your that worried about combo, the best main deck card I can think of to run in Goblins is Chalice of the Void. There is not a better card to run in my opinion than this one.

    I said this earlier, but Root Maze is something I wouldn't even consider running pre or post board.
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  14. #34

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel View Post
    I'm not looking at this as a challenge to find a better MD combo hate card, I'm looking at this trying to figure out why you're going to play a card that will hurt you. Lets play Point and Counterpoint!

    MD Root Maze Pros:
    -Turns off artifact accelerants for a turn.
    -Hurts Fetching and slows down mana production.
    -Actually hurts the belcher win condition, if only for a turn or two.
    -Hurts storm by preventing massive mana accel in one turn.

    MD Root Maze Cons:
    -Lowers your overall threat-density.
    -Hurts Fetching and slows down mana production, turn 2 Lackey is not hot.
    -Disrupts your own Mana Denial package (Ports and Wastes are near useless.)
    -Solidarity will just play lands for 4 turns and then win while you've got lands coming into play tapped, slowing your own clock by not being able to play threats as early, and not doing anything to actively threaten them.
    -TES will just slow down a turn to play accelerants and land, wait til you play your land tapped and do nothing, then go off in your grill by casting mass ritual effects and tutors into ETW.
    -Belcher can still just rocket into ETW via rituals.



    I'm sure I'm forgetting things on both lists, but common sense says that the card is entirely counter-intuitive to the pure aggro-combo strategy of the deck. Providing decks with a speedbump that slows you too isn't the same as blocking them from comboing and beating face.
    Pros

    -Agreed
    -Agreed
    -This is important, because Tin Street Hooligan and Goblin Tinker can remove a tapped Goblin Charblecher, and Root Maze also taps the Land Grant -> Taiga, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal so Root Maze is a 2xTime Walk against them.
    -Agreed

    Cons

    -Agreed, but Mogg Fanatic isn't a serious threat.
    -Wrong, Goblins uses 8 R/g Dual Lands instead of Fetchlands with Root Maze.
    -Wrong, CIP Fetchlands present Wasteland targets, and in all other cases the mana denial isn't affected.
    -Wrong, Fetchlands aside, High Tide has to use its first few turns to sculpt its hands, so even with 4 land on the board High Tide isn't able to go off on turn 4 that often.
    -Wrong, First, casting the artifacts before the ETW is senseless, because it reduces the storm count, and second, casting the ETW is bad because Goblins is an aggro deck, the average storm count for ETW is 8 and Goblins can tutor for Goblin Sharpshooter.
    -Wrong, Belcher requires the 0 mana to do that, so unless it has the Simian Spirit Guide into all of its red rituals or Elvish Spirit Guide into Tinder Wall into all of its red rituals and it has 6 non-Mox/Petal for Burning Wish into ETW it's not that simple.

    You seem to think that combo just ignores Root Maze and goes off, but pick up combo and PT on the draw with a turn one Root Maze out of Goblins and see just how difficult it is.

    @Nickrit, Aether Vial isn't an accelerant and CIP tapped has no affect on it.

    8 Fetchlands is the entire point, people use Fetchlands with total disregard to Stifle and/or Root Maze, imagine how much that mana base would suck against a deck that used Root Maze and didn't use Fetchlands.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    @Nickrit, Aether Vial isn't an accelerant and CIP tapped has no affect on it.

    I don't understand why Aether Vial isn't an accelerant. In an aggro-based deck, Aether Vial is an amazing accelerant. Aether Vial is probably one of the best cards that is used in the Legacy metagame.
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  16. #36

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by nickrit2000 View Post
    I don't understand why Aether Vial isn't an accelerant. In an aggro-based deck, Aether Vial is an amazing accelerant. Aether Vial is probably one of the best cards that is used in the Legacy metagame.
    Aether Vial produces mana, but it doesn't increase the amount of mana available, where a Birds of Paradise etc. increases the amount of mana so a two drop can be skipped for a three drop etc.

    Aether Vial turns a Goblin into a Cloud of Faeries, so it's more of a tempo generator than a mana generator.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Can we talk about something decent for the deck? Root Maze is never going to be any good in Goblins.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    What are our options to make Goblins not completely dead against Flash combo? The deck's obviously not getting errata'd out and banking on it getting banned in June is risky. I'm already preparing.

    My first thought is 4 Leyline of the Void to stop the Disciple variant, as 4 Leylines can be run regardless of color in this capacity. They would also be solid against Iggy Pop, Threshold, and Loam decks.

    Depending on their build, Pithing Needle, Swords to Plowshares, Shared Triumph, and Pyrokinesis can also help. Does Green have any hidden mega monsters to deal with Flash combo? Is the blue splash worth looking back into for Trickbind? And what do we maindeck and what do we reserve for sideboard?

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  19. #39

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomator View Post
    Can we talk about something decent for the deck? Root Maze is never going to be any good in Goblins.
    I've won 4 Force of Will and a Mana Drain off of those Root Mazes, regardless, there's nothing to discuss other than non-Goblin alterations to the MD and SB choices, the deck is about as simple as it gets.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    What are our options to make Goblins not completely dead against Flash combo? The deck's obviously not getting errata'd out and banking on it getting banned in June is risky. I'm already preparing.

    My first thought is 4 Leyline of the Void to stop the Disciple variant, as 4 Leylines can be run regardless of color in this capacity. They would also be solid against Iggy Pop, Threshold, and Loam decks.

    Depending on their build, Pithing Needle, Swords to Plowshares, Shared Triumph, and Pyrokinesis can also help. Does Green have any hidden mega monsters to deal with Flash combo? Is the blue splash worth looking back into for Trickbind? And what do we maindeck and what do we reserve for sideboard?
    @Tacosnape: Our current sideboards are useless. Honestly, if flash gets big, R/G Goblins may be tier 2. Red Elemental Blast / PyroBlast, Leyline, A new color other than green would probably be necessary. If this deck actually got big I would guess R/B Goblins would be a much more popular variant. Therapy is a monster vs flash, and we would actually be able to hardcast leyline vs other decks if it isn't in hand. As for monster ideas, the only really effective one would be leyline. Goblins could focus itself to win against Flash decks and other combo, but it may take too much from the deck's speed (which will be fine if the majority of the field turned to combo). The best choice in our meta is R/G, but we'll see what the meta becomes very shortly.

    @Breathweapon: Winning four forces and a Mana Drain with Root Maze is cool. Playing Root Maze in Goblins, not cool.
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