Hate vs creature I'm playing today is:Originally Posted by Mantis
- 3x Gempalm Incinerator
- 1x Warren Weirdings
- 1x Stingscourger
What you say is true btw there some situation in which a bouncer could hel p you more than Warren:
- Stingscourger is vialable, so you bounce a creature and block oneother
- Stingscourger has a target
And again:
- in Bant it's a bouncer for a non blue creature for a massive piledriver attack
- with kiki jiki it's a combo bouncer
I'm not always looking for my Stingscourger but it could be a tuff creature!
Hello,
haven`t played goblins for a pair of years, but I want to bring the little red men army to tournament next week :)
Now, the problem is that I don`t know which color to splash. Really want to play 4 Wasteland and 3 Rishadan MD, have all the lands needed for b and/or G splash, don`t want to play Instigators (as at least 7 of my lands won`t produce red mana). Metagame is...weird here, but I think I can expect a pair of Merfolks, Zoo, countertop, Dragon Stompy some kinds of aggro with Confidants and single decks like ANT, Enchantress, dredge, elves combo, burn...Basically I have a problem deciding which color to splash in this metagame and what cards to run. Anyone could help? :)
It seems the concensus is that black is the color to splash if you're splashing. If you do that you'll want to run at least warren weirdings and perish in the SB.
I don't suggest running a fairly broad card like MWM in your sideboard. I personally prefer to have stronger slightly more narrower cards like perish in my sideboard, regardless of if they are a goblin or not. This debate came up a long time ago when people were cutting mogg fanatics MD and were thinking, "should I play mogg fanatic or pyrokinesis in the sideboard?" (this was pre rules change, somewhat post rules change)...Anyways, my answer to that was pyrokinesis at the time. And I would rather play other cards than MWM in the sideboard.
Generally against zoo I board out 1 SGC (still playing 3), and then some combination of instigators and/or piledrivers. However, that is with mono red, and with the black splash I might consider boarding out warren weirding, depending on how many creatures they play. I've never been a fan of the card in this matchup.
Also when you are making deckbuilding decisions, looking at the curve like you are doing can be good, but I think we should be open to reevaluating our curve at any time.
For me, boarding in grave hate against zoo is bad. In the black splash, along with perish, it lowers the goblin count too much. We need strong ringleaders in order to establish our control role. If we can't reap a lot of card advantage of our ringleaders, well, then making the game go long does nothing but to delay death.
In a vacuum there is nothing wrong with GY hate against zoo, but remember we are goblins bringing in GY hate against zoo, and generally I've found that goblin SB cards that are not goblins that deal with a minimal amount of cards (Grim + Goyf + KotR) while lowering the ringleader count along with other nongoblin cards is not an idea we should follow.
That last sentence didn't make any sense, but it did in my head.
As far as the Rb build goes. I think terminate is a great sb option for the zoo matchup, it can always kill their best creature and isn't situational like perish. I've tested it a little bit and have been pretty happy. Like the guy from madrid mentioned before, I've started using 3 lightning bolt main and that has been great against zoo as well. You can actually get lackeys thru occasionally. If you lead lackey and they play a creature then you can bolt him and get going. I don't think most zoo players will see it coming the first game either. I'm currently running 3 bolts and 2 warren weirding main and then I can side in 3 terminates for my gempalm and the two weirdings.
I've been thinking about this deck alot lately and doing some research and we need to focus it down a bit more if we are going to make the changes to make this deck work well again. I think it's strong enough in the metagame, but maybe not in the current incarnation.
Working from the SCG article here,
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l..._Richmond.html
The decks we need to be focusing the most on, are
Zoo
Merfolk
Reanimator
ANT
Countertop/NO/Progenitus etc
Loam Decks- Aggro and 38 land
Dredge
I would say really the top 5 of those are the most important with loam decks and dredge being played less. So we need to set to work figuring out the optimal build to confronting this metagame. Most importantly I think we should take a step back and focus on the main problems these decks present. I'm not incredibly experienced with the matchups so people should fill in with their main problems with decks and what they have found that works well.
1) Zoo
- more efficient creatures and a quick attack with burn
2) Merfolk
- we have a pretty good matchup, although jitte can be a problem, and the new tarmo builds might be harder
3) Reanimator
- Iona, Sphinx, Inkwell
4) ANT
- storm obv
5) Countertop Progenitus etc
- Progenitus, tarmos, war monks
6) Loam Decks
- tabernacle, seismic assault, etc
7) Dredge
- redic fast starts
Basically what we need to work on are specific changes that can improve multiple matches. Maybe this means altering the MD alot, I don't know. We could def tailor this deck I think to beat on Zoo and merfolk pretty easily which are the two most popular decks atm but Progenitus is a problem because as we've already said, weirding is about the only way around it and its not that effective because they have more creatures. Storm is always a problem and will likely require some kind of large change to have any effect on the matchup. I personally believe a splash is the correct way to go right now and black is what I'm focusing on. Thats it I guess before I ramble
We are actually at somewhat of an advantage in SB games now as well since no one is boarding for goblins anymore.
So considering the top decks:
Zoo - Burn sucks, but if we can last long enough we can get card advantage and they won't be able to burn out all our dudes. Perish kills most of their creatures (Kird Ape/Loam Lion is only a 2/3, but after the first few turns it's nothing special and we can live with them on board). Lavamancer is annoying but we can usually stick a single goblin to Incinerate him for 1, or just force him to trade with a Lackey early on. Terminate seems ok, but I don't think we have room due to the weakness we have to combo decks, and the other two options have more broad applications. Perish against Progenitus and Weirding against Reanimator. I think Earwig Squad is really good in this since he is our only playable guy who trades with Goyf.
Reanimator - We need more Weirdings because of this matchup. They don't run any green fatties so Perish is useless and they will rarely have more than 1 guy out at a time. They have shroud fatties so the lack of target is essential. Iona poses a problem, but forces them to not lock us out because of color. If they choose red, we can Weirding her. If they choose black (for some odd reason; shitty player?) we can try to race or something. Also, Vial on 2 with Stingscourger takes care of Iona.
Fish - Not something we need to worry about too much. I see Bolt being most relevant in this matchup, but we have an advantage here so we don't need too much of a gameplan. Earwig Squad can try to handle Jittes before they're drawn.
Storm combo - SB Chalice and Thoughtseize is our only hope. Hope to get a Chalice for 0 both games and that should buy us enough time.
Bant Survival/Bant Countertop - We can beat these decks easily if Progenitus was not part of the equation. Earwig Squad and Perish are proactive and reactive answers to him.
Loam decks - Speed is crucial here. GY hate out of the board helps but we just need to threaten them before their engine comes on.
Dredge - Same thing.
I don't really agree with the sideboard plans against reanimator and ANT here.
I've played against 3 B/R goblin decks in Madrid as reanimator and I've never used iona or inkwell.
Akroma is the way to go, since she has haste, you hardly lose any speed.
Then again the deck finally have something reanimator do want to Force or Daze (besides a T1 lackey).
The deck can always reanimate a goblin from your graveyard and use it as canon fodder for warren weirding.
(btw chalice @ 1 hurts the deck a lot)
Also against this deck a well-placed thoughtseize can slow down the deck enough to win.
Against storm I think the thorn is better than chalice. Storm combo has no problem winning through a chalice @ 1. ( see LED, Petal, Cabal ritual, IT etc.) etc etc, while playing against a thorn they have to give up 1 mana for each acceleration. a well-placed thoughtseize + clock is key. even though they can protect it with mystical/brainstorm and SDT easily, I wouldn't count on having it a huge effect on their gameplan.
I agree with the point about thorn. I also run mindbreak traps just because its not something they're going to expect coming from goblins. As for loam, dredge, and reanimator: LEYLINE OF THE VOID. Its the best graveyard hate and shuts all 3 of the decks down (albeit reanimator can still show and tell turn 3, but then you hit them with weirding). I've done some pretty extensive playtesting against all those decks you listed there. Honestly, I've found my best matchups to be Countertop/NO/Progenitus, Merfolk, and Reanimator. With Leyline dredge and Loam become a lot easier. After some fine tuning, and 4 perish in sb now, I've found Zoo to be a little less than a 50/50 matchup, and I'll take that. ANT is always tough. I'm experimenting with Earwig squad as a way to just beat them.
My Current board looks like this:
4 Perish
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thorn of Amtheyst
1 Earwig Squad
Forgot about Akroma, but she has pro-red/black so she might as well be shroud to us. Also forgot about Leyline...I should probably try that.
I was aiming at playing Chalice for 0 against storm. That way they can't play Petals or LEDs and that slows them down enough for us to either find a Chalice for 1 or apply enough pressure that Ad Nauseum would practically kill them.
Hmmm... I'm trying to decide if id rather have chalice or mindbreak traps. I feel mindbreak trap is much better against a variaty of decks, such as belcher, solidarity, etc. I'm really not sure...
Interesting take on the sideboard, and similar to mine. Personally I'd rather have thoughtseize overall instead of mindbreak trap. It definitely takes more skill and understanding of combo decks, which is something I think many of us (myself included) need to work on to make good choices with a card like thoughtseize. Mindbreak trap is better than thoughtseize against combo, but we can bring it in against control decks and other decks where warren weirding is a dead card (such as the mirror).
When I ran leyline, I was very disappointed with it, particularly against aggro loam. The problem with mulling into it with goblins is that we often need to apply early pressure on the loam player. We either have to balls-to-the-walls them with stuff like t1 lackey t2 weirding, OR apply consistent pressure with an army of lackey/instigators, some stingscourgers, and a couple lands reserved in hand for their devastating dream shenanigans. The chosen path usually relies on having aether vial or not. Personally I think the consistent pressure route is better, but it's not very easy to pull off without a vial.
The problem then with leyline is that it can fuck up that plan. We already have to mull against loam quite a bit because nothing else but those two strategies will really work against the deck. Leyline causes us either to mull a fuckton more (have to have leyline AND a decent hand) or forces us into bad hands. And frankly I'd rather have good hands against loam than have a leyline and a bad hand, especially since most loam decks have some sort of postboard answers to leyline (ex. burning wish, maelstrom pulse) and ways to find them (ex. cycle lands, dark confidant).
Maybe it all just stems from the fact that I have never really liked leyline of the void. I've always been more of a traditionalist with my grave hate, crypt and relic. Time will tell what is most effective, people say they aren't as good against reanimator, but I haven't really looked into it.
My sideboard looks like this at the moment:
4 Perish
4 Thoughtseize
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3/1 Relic/Crypt
1 Earwig Squad
And otherwise here is my maindeck, not in shoddy MWS form:
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
8 Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding
...I'm not yet sold on Auntie's Hovel, but I see why people play it. I'll stick with the tried and true formula for a legacy manabase for now. I haven't gotten in as much testing as I used to, but I think if you are looking for success in a modern metagame, you should look for a list similar to this one. The only recommendation I would make to some people is -1 SGC, +1 Chieftain, as I believe my playstyle naturally goes well with 3 SGC.
What are you trying to say here exactly? Warren Weirding is great against Reanimator. Sure, if you have Force, blue card, land, Reanimate and Entomb/Study+fatty or 2 Lands, 2 Reanimates, Thoughtseize/Daze and Entomb/Study+fatty then Warren Weirding won't save me and I will lose. But so does every other deck in the format... Warren Weirding is excellent against reanimator, it might just be the best trump card in the format. I think reanimator is going to have a very hard time post board against Goblins when we run 4 Relics and 4 Weirdings.
Thoughtseize is just a minor annoyance for ANT, it sets them back a turn maybe. In the GP I had 3 copies of Seize against my ANT opponent and still lost. Imagine that were 3 Chalices, Thorns or Mindbreak Traps. My current SB plan to combat ANT is 1 Earwig Squad and 4 Trap. With Squad you have a turn 3 clock against ANT and you can steal games of unsuspecting ANT players with Mindbreak Trap. If you win game 2 on the back of Trap and they try to play around Trap game 3, that gives you more than enough time to set up the Squad kill and you will surprise them twice.
Team R&D
I know you played Akroma in madrid, but the winning decklist there was not packing it nor were the two top 8 decks from SCG 5K. No one talks about it in the reanimator thread so I doubt anyone is really running it and if they are they probably should'nt be. The reanimate a goblin from our yard is a stretch i would think that you have to have two reanimate effects in hand early and we have to put a goblin into the yard early which won't always be the case.
What list are you running now? Are you using 1 earwig squad main?
I've been playing 4x Auntie's Hovel for a while now and have never had a problem with it. The drawback is nothing and I'm never really concerned about getting wastelanded playing goblins.
I guess my thinking is, if one's metagame has shifted enough to really warrant mindbreak trap, I'm not sure goblins is the best choice. I'll stick with thoughtseize if I even do play the deck because of its broader applications, and because it can still win games against ANT. I wouldn't rely on a game where you draw 3 seizes and still lose as representative of thoughtseize's ability against combo, I think it takes more than that to prove thoughtseize is a waste of sideboard space. And we could always play with a pair of REBs to minorly combat combo, heavy blue-based decks like Dreadstill, and I've found it to be amazing against merfolk (since the easiest way to lose is a swarm of lords or jitte).
Although I do like mindbreak trap for costing 0, which is what has made chalice such a playable sideboard card in goblins for so long. But if I'm devoting sideboard specifically to storm, then I think I should probably just switch decks (and I actually am with 2 thorns).
I look at it the opposite way. I see Chalice as playable against those decks (not sure about Belcher, never played against it but don't they have a bunch of 0 mana artifacts for mana? Trap is probably better here). Against Solidarity/Spring Tide, you can drop Chalice for 1 and they lose their engine (until they find a bounce, but it buys us time to find Earwig Squad). Mindbreak Trap can just be Forced or Duressed away. I guess the surprise factor comes in here, so I think I'm assuming the other player is going to be cautious and not go off without protection.
Chalice is also great against Reanimator and can be applied against Loam decks as well (probably not the best option, but it could help).
I'm also not as knowledgeable about the format as you so feel free to correct me. Also, I won't be attacking into untapped Aether Vials this weekend! =D
Because I'm laying low with Dredge, I've decided to try out Goblins at the big tourney in my location. I know that in a wide-open metagame, splashing is probably best option, but as it turns out, the only duals I can borrow are Plateaus. I guess I'm looking for a good R/W list then. MD, I know I want 4 StP, but is there anything else? Maybe a Mirror Entity or something? Also, I have no idea what I want in my sideboard. Chant effects? Disenchant effects? Is Pyrokinesis still worth it? Thanks for your help.
For reference, my current list (I could only get my hands on 3 Plateau)
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshal
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
3 Plateau
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
I tried thoughtseize and found it very underwhelming. I play ANT as well, and thoughtsieze is much less of a problem as opposed to MB trap. Normally discard/chants get sided out against aggro, but with MB trap, those cards are forced to be left in, slowing things down. Agreed that if combo is a big enough issue, this deck shouldn't be played. But while thresh is so popular, I think theres more than enough reason to play goblins.
Leyline of the Void is SO good. Especially in the b/r because we can replay it by turn 4. Leyline is much better against Aggro loam because a lot of their effects are for when lands go to the yard, and crypt/relic do nothing against that. I tested about 20 games vs dredge, and won 17 of them thanks to Leyline. It forces them to mull to bounce, and even that is iffy. Reanimator is put in the same position. Even if they get bounce and are able to reanimate something, weirding will most likely take it out.
My list is very similar to yours. I run 2 SGC and 2 Chieftan, as well as a 3rd incinerator no stingscourger. I also run 2 hovels in place of the extra 2 fetches. I've been experimenting with a basic swamp too because of wastelands. Have you given this a shot at all?
@jrsthethird I've taught you well!
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
