[DTB] Vial Goblins

[jrw1985]

I've had mixed results with Chieftain and Instigator. I may test them in the future again but I'm happy with the build I'm running and don't really feel like I need a lord. I don't think I can run Instigator with 8 Wastes/Ports; it has lead to some awkward hands.

Instigator and Chieftain haven't lead to awkward hands in my experience...
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=34739
I was running 3 Chieftains and 2 Instigators AND 3 Ports and 4 Wastes when I placed 4th in Minneapolis (bragging, sorry). They worked fine together for me. This is because I almost always mulled to a 1 drop, which is hugely important in that your Vial or Lackey allows you to play everything else for free. Yes it's sometimes awkward trying to cast Chieftain or Instigator, but that's not the point of the deck! You're not supposed to be casting them, you're supposed to cheat them into play while you use your lands to disrupt and slow down your opponent. If you're keeping hands full of 2 and 3 drops you're doing it wrong. I like Instigator over MWM because MWM just isn't a threat. The way I see it, MWM is just 2 goblins for 2 mana if you're on the offensive. Clearly you're not going to pay the echo cost, so unless you used the MWM as a blocker then it's just 2 goblins for 2 mana. That isn't bad per se, but it isn't very threatening. It's actually a pretty defensive play, which against most of the decks in the field is a mistake. Instigator on the other hand is a very threatening creature that either requires removal or a blocker to negate. If he connects even once it's game over. Instigator also allows you to keep more opening hands, especially if you're on the play. My play style has generally been to pressure my opponent as much as possible, which works perfectly with Instigator. Also, in situations where you're paying for a Tabernacle or attacking through a Propaganda Instigator has obvious advantages over MWM. For the offensive game, having more damage in 1 body is generally advantagous. If they don't have an answer they're screwed. Chieftain I like because the haste and pump are huge. He negates E Plague while being an offensive force. Let's see KGrip do that. Having more 3cc Vial possibilities is strong for the deck, and the pump is amazing with SGC or a dominant board position.

Sup, Horde...

I'm still playing the same Mono-Red instigatorless, chieftainless list (with two Skirk Prospector). Warren Instigator adds a lot of speed, but I love my MWM, and I don't think I can leave them behind :(

...

You guys, who're testing Warren Instigator to its maximum power, is Zoo still hard to beat? The lack of MWM seems to weaken the deck against this matchup.

Goblins don't need MWM (or Perish) to beat Zoo. Just use your goblins intelligently. You know that you can and will outdraw Zoo, so create 1-2 and 1-1 situations. Chieftain is great against Zoo because his pump allows you better exchanges and gives you a hastey speed factor that Zoo can't match. Pyrokinesis allows you to spread damage around and makes for big swings. Against Zoo (as against most decks) having a 1 drop is crucial. Vial is generally better than Lackey, but Lackey allows trickier play. If they don't flat out burn Lackey, and instead drop a Nacatl, you have the opportunity to Weirding or Stingscourger it away and get a free goblin cheated in. Also, if they're sitting on a 2/2 Nacatl with a Taiga in play you can attack into the cat with your Lackey, then Waste their dual after damage to kill the cat (as it becomes a 1/1 with 1 damage on it). I see no point in keeping a Lackey around that can't get damage through, so you might as well try to trade with it. If you can't trade with it don't use it to block until your life total is dropping to under 10. Eat the first 10 damage while building a horde. Zoo can burn you out if you drop under 10 life, but above 10 you'll be OK. This is good to know when your opponent casts burn on your goblins instead of you, because it lets you know what's in their hand. Case in point- I was playing against a very skilled Zoo player once, and the game was going deep. I finally had developed a superior board position, but at this point was down to 4 life. I wanted to give up, since I knew it was only going to take 1 Pyroblast to kill me, or any 2 other burn spells, but I told myself to play it like I might win it. When I sent my Lackey through an open board my opponent tossed back his head and sighed, then Bolted my Lackey. I was thrilled because I now knew that he could only draw into a Pyroblast to burn me out, and that I would win if I could dodge that for another few turns. And I did, winning the match. So keep your life total out of burn range. Build up at least 3 goblins on your side so you can start Gempalming Cats away. Better yet, use Gempalm when you block. Since Gempalm replaces itself you are getting a 1-1 trade. Since we can draw cards and they can't this situation will work out for us in the long run. I generally try not to Waste their lands unless they've missed a land drop and I can keep them off 2 or 3 lands. Zoo runs on such a low curve that it can overcome Wastelands pretty easily otherwise. Play out your hand as quickly as possible. 95% of the time when you Matron you'll want it to be for Ringleader to refill your hand. Don't allow them to get Lavamancer online. Do what you can to negate Jitte by bouncing or burning the equipped creature, or blocking and sacking your goblin to Skirk Prospector before damage so Jitte gets no counters. Once you've gained board position THAT"S when you start sending through attackers.

Tested Instigators again too, and they were awesome.
There's no need for MWM too beat Zoo, so no need for him in the MD imo.

+1

[jrw1985]

Survival's out as of 1/1/11.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/122k
Goodbye Extirpate.
Hello Tormod's Crypt.

[Mantis]

Survival's out as of 1/1/11.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...y/feature/122k
Goodbye Extirpate.
Hello Tormod's Crypt.

Vengevine still exsist in conjunction with Intuition. Extirpate totally demolishes them, Tormod's Crypt does squat.

[markbris]

Vengevine still exsist in conjunction with Intuition. Extirpate totally demolishes them, Tormod's Crypt does squat.

Don't they intuition to get 3 vengevines then you crypt two of em?

[GoboLord]

Hey folks,

I want to discuss Warren Instigator for a while here.
I had a tournament yesterday and took 4 Warren Instigator with me because I wanted to have an oppinion on this card that's based on experience. Before I begin to talk about what my subjective oppinion is, I want to list some facts first.

Here's my list:

//Lands [23]
7 Wasteland/Ports
6 Fetchlands
2 Taiga
8 Mountain

// Core [26]
Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader, 2 SGC

// Others [ 7+ 4]
3 L. Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger

4 Warren instigator

//Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline otV
4 Chalice otV
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Nature's Claim


* You don't keep hands just because of WI when you don't have a first-turn-drop
* WI is good against combo
* WI oftentimes doesn't connect because of removal/counters
* WI is not an offensive card
* WI doesn’t add speed to your deck
* WI is absolutely playable along with Wastelands and Rishadan Port if your splash (if any) is very light

Here are my experiences with it:

R1 - 4c Countertop
In G1 it ran into Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares
In G2 it was not necessary because I had it when my hand was empty
Didn't draw it in G3

R2 - Raffinity
In G1 my opponent want for an all-in attack with 4 creatures because he just didn't get what WI was doing. On the next turn WI brought me Ringleader into SGC.
In G2 my opponent took care of my WI. So I guess WI was one of my creatures (along with Lackey and Piledriver) that pushed him into defense

R3 - Solidarity
In G1 my Lackey got countered, so it was WI who made it here.
Same goes for G2, only that he brought only one creature into play.

R4 – Zoo
Didn’t have WI in G1.
In G2 he just ate removals.

R5 – Dredge
Didn’t have WI in G1,2 and 3.

R6 – Ugbw Thresh
In G1 he scared a Nimble Mongoose. So it prevented one hit (1 damage).
In G2 he ran into Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares

Testsession today

Canadian Thresh 7 games
In several games he was able to stall a lonely Mongoose over 1-2 turns. My opponent complained a lot about WI; he found him very disturbing.

The Rock 12 games
WI ran into lots of Swords to Plowshares and Vindicates. It didn’t connect in 12 out of 12 games.


Conclusion:
I never boarded WI out. It always appeared to be a threat to my opponent although I tested it in very diverse MUs (control, agro and combo). Looking at those results above he connected 3 times in 26 games, which is very low.
I guess WI has two functions in the deck:
(1) He is awesome in MU where creatures and removal don’t stand in his way (obviously). There he’s aggressive.
(2) He is good in MU where you might want to buy time and stall your opponents (huge) creatures a bit (like Zoo, Thresh and Rock). Here he’s a defensive card.
@ MWM vs. WI discussion: I think WI is equal if not better in stalling you opponents creatures because he forces them to leave (more) blockers behind. On the other hand WI doesn’t create cardadvantage: it takes only one blow (attack/removal) to kill WI where MWM can catch up to 3.

[Pinoy Goblin]

In my personal opinion and further testing Mogwar Marshall is better than Warren Instigator in all aspects because it has synergy with gempahlm, piledriver, siege gang, warchief, sharpshooter and skirk prospector. Yes WI is a threat but with the current meta and with all the creature removals it will not connect and survive most of the time.

[Tacosnape]

In my personal opinion and further testing Mogwar Marshall is better than Warren Instigator in all aspects because it has synergy with gempahlm, piledriver, siege gang, warchief, sharpshooter and skirk prospector. Yes WI is a threat but with the current meta and with all the creature removals it will not connect and survive most of the time.

So your theory is that we should not run good cards for fear of people having answers?

Warren Instigator doesn't hit very often because your opponents will distort their gameplay at nearly all costs to make him not connect. This is a great thing. It forces your opponents to have less to deal with the previous top threats. I've found my Warchiefs stay alive much more often when Instigator draws the STP.

Plus, there's so much benefit you get from being able to pass turn with a Vial at 2 and either force your opponent not to swing out of fear, or catch them sleeping, sneak one in, and connect.

[Pinoy Goblin]

So your theory is that we should not run good cards for fear of people having answers?

Warren Instigator doesn't hit very often because your opponents will distort their gameplay at nearly all costs to make him not connect. This is a great thing. It forces your opponents to have less to deal with the previous top threats. I've found my Warchiefs stay alive much more often when Instigator draws the STP.

Plus, there's so much benefit you get from being able to pass turn with a Vial at 2 and either force your opponent not to swing out of fear, or catch them sleeping, sneak one in, and connect.

Im not saying that you should not run WI, well if you like playing it then do so . . . I said that in my personal opinion MWM is much better than WI card for card. You have lackey so for me theres no sense on running instigators.

[lebarion]

MWM is better against Zoo, and that's why I prefer him in today's metagame. I believe WInstigator is better in almost every other match.
Also, to get WInstigator to its full potential, I think you should use a couple Goblin Chieftain. WInstigator turn 2 followed by Goblin Chieftain turn 3 is very good.

[Tom T]

I haven't tested WI yet. I will this evening, but until then my opinion will be:
Warren Instigator puts pressure on an opponent and contributes in a controll-like situation because of it.
Mogg War Marshall has a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck, but doesn't contribute in controll-like situations except for keeping big guys off for a turn.
Warren Instigator is to slow to contribute in aggro play.
Mogg War Marshall provides more opportunities for turn 3 kills.
Warren Instigator has a hard manacost. It doesn't interact with Warchief this way. I really like to drop all my Ringleader-goblins directly when I have a Warchief in play. When I leave an Aether Vial on 3 counters, it's because of the situation I don't want to pay RR for a single goblin.

Guys (especially Gobolord, very clear), thanks for your testing.

[ScatmanX]

I really don't want to write a report about my last champ, but since we're in the Instigator subject, here's his experience:

I run Gobbolords list, -1 Instigator, -1 Sting, +1 Bolt, +1 Prospector.

R1- Lands
g1 - Never showed up.
g2 - Was my 2 drop, and connected once, but Lands with Manabound and Loam and Mishra's was just too much, while I didn't draw Waste/Port/Blood Moon.

R2 - No-Bant
g1 - Never showed up.
g2 - came in turn 4 I guess, after he countered a Bolt on his Hierarch, and dropped Progenitus. I was as 21, due to 1 StP, so Instigator helped me put my army in, and win with 1 life.

R3 - Zoo
Did not see g1, sided out g2. win 2-0.

R4 - Ub Folk
don't really remember. 2-0

R5- U Folk
did not show up.

R6 - Junk
g1 - 1st turn Lackey, he has 1st turn Bob. I hit, he blocks, I cast Instigator. He cast Relicary. I never drew a removal.
g2 - sided out.

R7 - Elves
Never showed up.

I really don't know what to think. They were better than MWM in every MU, except against Junk. I'll probably stick with them for the next month, and see how it goes.

[Nelis]

Mogg War Marshall has a lot of synergy with the rest of the deck, but doesn't contribute in controll-like situations except for keeping big guys off for a turn.

I don't fully agree. I think it also contributes to the control-like situation because it makes Gempalm Incinerator much more effective.

[jrw1985]

I think Instigator v War Marshal has to come down to personal choice and play style. Instigator is better against Aggro-control with fewer creatures. MWM is better against pure aggro with more removal and more creatures. The only real way to say one is right or not is based on your local meta and and your personal play style.

[GoblinZ]

Hello every one

I have run a RW goblin deck for over two months，but now I am considering if I should splash red and green instead of white，here is the RW version I use：

4 mountain
4 plateau
6 fetch land
4 port
4 wasteland

2 gempalm
2 mogg fanatic
4 ringleader
4 matron
2 goblin chieftain
4 warchief
1 sharpshooter
1 mirror breaker
1 siege gang
4 piledriver
4 lackey
1 tinkerer

4 vial+4 sword to plowshares

And this is the version I am thinking of

2 badland
1 taiga
5 mountain
6 fetch land
4 port+4 wasteland

3 gempalm
2 mogg fanatic
4 lackey
4 piledriver
1 chieftain
4 warchief
4 matron
4 ringleader
1 sharpshooter
1 mirror breaker
1 siege gang
1 tinkerer
1 boggart auntie
2 stingscourge

4 vial +warren wierding

I want to know if this RBG version is better than my RW version and if it is necessary to give up my RW version，I am looking foward for your advice，thanks！

[ScatmanX]

Just sleeved back up my RB goblins! I'm so happy! =D

@GoblinZ: regarding your latter list:
- Fanatic was not worth it in the Survival metagame, where it could kill Birds and Hierarc, and is certainly not worth now.
- there's no need for MD Tinker. If you want, play him in the Sb.
- add 1 Siege-Gang. He's our biggest guy, and you should have at least 2.
- How your SB look like? I don't see the reason for the G splash anymore, but thats a meta call...

[P-AiR]

With Survival out of the picture, I was thinking of swapping the nature's claim for Krosan Grips. Are there decks that require me to answer their artifact/enchantments before turn 3? My meta is quite random, you have a few merfolks, rock, enchantress, burn, tes, and show/tell.

I've seen people refer to Nacatl being killed by Lackey / Wasteland. Can you declare blockers, and after damage has been dealt, play wasteland from your hand? How does that work?

[JonBarber]

With Survival out of the picture, I was thinking of swapping the nature's claim for Krosan Grips. Are there decks that require me to answer their artifact/enchantments before turn 3? My meta is quite random, you have a few merfolks, rock, enchantress, burn, tes, and show/tell.

I've seen people refer to Nacatl being killed by Lackey / Wasteland. Can you declare blockers, and after damage has been dealt, play wasteland from your hand? How does that work?

Assuming they only have 1 land in play, attack with lackey. They block with nactal. Post combat, play wasteland and waste their land. Nactal becomes a 1/1 with 1 point of damage on him killing him.

[ddt15]

The most game breaking play you can make with Instigator is probably vialing him into play at end of turn if they didn't hold back any blockers. That has won me some games when I ran it. I would not run more than 2 though, and always play 4 Waste 4 Port (even in RB). I now play Prospector over Instigator.

[GoboLord]

@ Off topic:

[jin]

With Survival out of the picture, I was thinking of swapping the nature's claim for Krosan Grips. Are there decks that require me to answer their artifact/enchantments before turn 3? My meta is quite random, you have a few merfolks, rock, enchantress, burn, tes, and show/tell.

I've seen people refer to Nacatl being killed by Lackey / Wasteland. Can you declare blockers, and after damage has been dealt, play wasteland from your hand? How does that work?

damage stays on until end of turn.. so even if the Nacatl is a 3/3, it has one point of damage to it. If it becomes a 1/1 now, it will die..