[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Tacosnape]

I've won 4 Force of Will and a Mana Drain off of those Root Mazes, regardless, there's nothing to discuss other than non-Goblin alterations to the MD and SB choices, the deck is about as simple as it gets.

I won a Legacy tournament once with what was basically a Simic Pre-con with Forces, Jittes, and a sideboard. That doesn't make it optimal.

[Awesomator]

i won a recent legacy tourney with extended loam lol, you got me beat with the precon though.

[Tacosnape]

i won a recent legacy tourney with extended loam lol, you got me beat with the precon though.

I think I had Phantom Centaur in it too. I remember it was designed to win through a field that had like three Rifter decks and a little Goblins and Combo and it did just that. Graft pwned.

But anyway, I digress. Do we even need black for Leyline of the Void? It seems to me that in most matches we would want it, it would be pointless by the time we could hardcast it. Threshold would already have Threshold, and Iggy Pop and Hulk Flash would already have killed us.

Also, what's our second choice here? I've thought a lot about Serum Powder, given how awesome it would be against most combo decks with the ability to power mulligan into Turn 0 Leyline or Turn 1 Chalice for Zero. White Splash can also be ridiculous and run Children of the Korlis, but here gets to be the main dilemma. Is this deck so ridiculously broken that it's profitable to run cards that hit only it? Or are we better off with Leyline/Pyrokinesis/Powder doing what it can to disrupt both versions of the deck?

[Jak]

I made a thread about this, but now with flash I think it would be a lot better. I played Flash for the first time against a Stax deck and what beat me was the turn 2 trini, then chalice turn 3, followed by LD. Game 2 leyline turn 0 and then dropped chalice for one turn two after I tutored for chain of vapor. This is something goblins can easily do. Here is my proposed list of Goblin Stax.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Mountain

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Ringleader
3 Siege-Gang Commander

SB
4 Leyline of the Void
11 ?

A rough list, but I think it is possible. Thoughts?

[Tacosnape]

It's an interesting list, except that Trinisphere does absolutely nothing against Flash Combo.

[Jak]

yeah, but it was there for other stuff too. It is very rough and just an idea to try to save goblin's ass.

[Awesomator]

The reason I suggested Running black in the future was also for therapy. It wouldn't help to be able to cast Leyline against flash, but against other control based decks in the future, maybe. Right now, being able to cast it would only help against loam based decks, and thresh if you get really lucky(but probably not). It doesn't help much, but it doesn't hurt either. As for Gobstax, turn 2 hate on the draw is useless, and trini only buys you a turn or two to do basically nothing if you have port. If you get really lucky, you are on the play, port a land, and get tomb and chalice for 2 to resolve. Scenario two is trini on turn two, and get a chalice to res turn 3, but I wouldn't bank on either. Goblins can turn into a much better hate deck IMO, we will have to see how much of the field actully turns to flash though.

[Tacosnape]

My current board:

4 Leyline of the Void (Maindecked)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Disenchant
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Serum Powder/Shared Triumph

Shared Triumph versus Serum Powder is an interesting clash in my brain. Shared Triumph is not only solid versus plague, but it can mess up the Disciple variant of Flash Combo by naming Wall. Serum Powder just gives me ridiculous access to immediate Leylines and turn 0 Chalices.

[Awesomator]

LOL that's hilarious, there are probably better choices, but still.. good thinking with shared triumph. When you play triumph, the average opponent would probably let it resolve, thinking that you are a terrible player who boarded it in to name goblins and make a quicker clock against flash. REB might work a bit better and also help against the new breed of decks trying to hate hulk out which will mostly be blue. We may be able to deal with hulk between chalice for 0 and leyline, but REB will probably be a good sideboard option again. I haven't tested vs hulk with Leyline yet, just the chalice. On the play, if chalice is in hand turn 1 it will resolve about 71% of the time since they can only use force, assuming they aren't actually running the gemstone cavern build, and in that case, they would have the turn 1 kill anyway. The chalice for 0 will only buy time anyway, but will help stop PoN and tutoring through Summoners Pact. Leaving your opponent with only 4 FOW leaves room for other hate to resolve also, and if the opponent is also running daze, that probably means they aren't running enough tutors. If our opponents aren't running enough tutors it will increase our chances of winning.

[Tacosnape]

LOL that's hilarious, there are probably better choices, but still.. good thinking with shared triumph. When you play triumph, the average opponent would probably let it resolve, thinking that you are a terrible player who boarded it in to name goblins and make a quicker clock against flash.

It worked well in testing. I actually got a win off by doing that, then dropping out a Sharpshooter after losing 12 to Marauders and shooting off all four Disciples, then all four Walls. I had no other Goblins out, so the Flash player decided to try and drop me down with Disciple aggro. More likely they'd wait and try to bounce the triumph.

The chalice for 0 will only buy time anyway, but will help stop PoN and tutoring through Summoners Pact.

My question is, if we get the Leyline of the Void in play right off the bat, does it become in our best interests to try and Chalice for a number other than 0? Chalice 0 will only stop Summoner's Pact and Lotus Petal, as Pact of Negation will have been boarded out (Unless Goblins does make a habit of trying to run REB.) Chalice for 1 would stop Chain of Vapor, as well as Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor. Chalice for 2 would be far more difficult to aim for, but the Leyline might buy enough time to make it an option.

My second question is, do White builds even want Chalice anymore? Children of Korlis not only stops the Disciple half of Flash, but it also stops Tendrils of Agony. That blows against things like GK Salvagers and Solidarity, but still. I'm not in any hurry to ditch the Chalices, just brainstorming a bit.

[ForceofWill]

as for the new goblin decks with stax parts main I'd cut ringleaders as they get fucked up when you take out gobs and consider running blood moon. James Mankin (the faerie stompy player top 8 day 1 TMLOII) was playing a list with chalice main ancient tomb blood moon and get this 4 goblin king main. It was really wierd but he managed a top 4.

[LrdMcCaffrey]

Has anyone thought about swapping out green for blue to run 3-4 Stifles MD? They'd give you a cheap, most likely unexpected answer to Hulk Flash, and adding 4 stifles to the LD package is enough to make just about any deck start to frown. Shut down deed too, if cards that card isn't far too slow to matter by now.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

I'd bet dollars to pesos that if you play anyone at the GP NOT running blue, it's cause they didn't get the memo, and thus, probably suck anyway.

[b4r0n]

Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

At least post-FS, Hulk will be able to use additional countermagic (Pact) to protect the Flash, while that countermagic is almost always usless against proactive hate (unless they plan on going off during their upkeep). Thus, proactive hate seems to be the stronger choice. REB might still be good in addition to such hate though.

Personally, I think the black splash has the most merit. Cabal Therapy is good in general, and Leyline of the Void has the potential to be fast enough to slow down Hulk enough for you to beat them.

[Awesomator]

Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

I'd bet dollars to pesos that if you play anyone at the GP NOT running blue, it's cause they didn't get the memo, and thus, probably suck anyway.

@ Spatula: Flash won't overrun the GP, FS won't be legal. If you are that worried about Flash pre FS (which I wouldn't be), Extirpate is extremely good against pre FS Hulk. The GP ready builds Rely on tutors (mystical and worldly) which put the cards on the top of their deck, it's an uncounterable way to get rid of the other three tutors and shuffle their deck once the target is on top. I would still run R/G Goblins for GP, but just an idea if you are expecting a lot of flash.

@Taco: If you get leyline, you definitely go for chalice 1, and then you will definitely win against the current hulk lists if it resolves. Chalice is probably always going to be useful in the board as extra combo hate, it helps lock down Hulk if you get that far, and is extremely solid vs tendrils. Korlis is definitely a solid option though.

@b4r0n: I agree, black will probably be best post GP. If players continue to run only chain of vapor, if we get our leyline hate into play on turn 1/0, dropping a second one into play before the first is dealt with would force them to find 2 COV which most decks don't run, or echoing truth, which they also don't currently run. Cabal Therapy is a monster on the play, on the draw it's kind of blahh but it still helps.

@LrdMcCaffrey: Pre FS blue has been talked about, but I wouldn't, you get too much out of running green. If you mean post FS, then definitely a solid option. Deed is rarely a problem, due to the fact that they run between 2-3 colors and you have four wastelands and 4 ports to hold them off plus a clock. Usually they won't have an active deed until earliest turn 4 or 5, and the deck is just too quick for it.

[Tacosnape]

The problem with both Red Elemental Blast and Stifle is that they require you leave your mana open in a deck that wants to do that less than any other deck in existence. The best combo hate cards in Goblins are either at the 0 mana slot (preferrable) or the 2 mana slot (since Goblins has little to do at this slot), and should involve staying on the board rather than being reactive.

[Awesomator]

Although I do agree with that in any other case, against Hulk in particular, you do need reactive cards also. The fact that REB costs 1cc is only an advantage since the deck conistantly goes off on turn 2. REB will be important because it will not only help help Protect your hate cards such as leyline, chalice, etc., but it could also affect flash if it comes in multiples and they try to combo off counter light. Having to leave mana open to cast reactive cards= bad, but against Hulk, it would be most likely necessary hate. The goal would be to slow them down enough to swarm in for the kill. In order to slow them down, you unfortunately have to leave mana open or else it most likely won't work. The deck runs 5 COV in the current build (4 mystical and 1 COV).

[Shriekmaw]

The problem with both Red Elemental Blast and Stifle is that they require you leave your mana open in a deck that wants to do that less than any other deck in existence. The best combo hate cards in Goblins are either at the 0 mana slot (preferrable) or the 2 mana slot (since Goblins has little to do at this slot), and should involve staying on the board rather than being reactive.

I do realize that combo has been gaining popularity mostly in the form of Hulk Flash, but I would probably still run the standard Goblins build with the green splash. It would be best to focus on the sideboard for the hate against combo. Goblins will always have a tough time with it, but I can't really find any real solutions to combo outside of Pillar and Chalice in the board. I guess it would be possible to run pyroblast or REB.

I would probably take my chances with only Pillar and Chalice in the board for combo. When boarding I'm always aware that you don't want to board too much against combo b/c you still want to have a quick clock.

I would consider maybe adding 2 or 3 pyroblast into the board, but outside of that I'm not sure what else can be done, unless you want to change the deck of Vial Goblins.

[Tacosnape]

I would probably take my chances with only Pillar and Chalice in the board for combo.

Then you're on crack. You will have a complete autoloss to a deck which should comprise anywhere from 20-40% of any given field, considering it's insanely powerful, only slightly more expensive to build than Goblins, and arguably easier to play.

Pyrostatic Pillar has to become Leyline of the Void. Here's why.

1. It stops Hulk Flash and forces Hulk Flash to bounce it.
2. Threshold will see an upsurge for awhile. Leyline of the Void will let you walk all over it.
3. Likewise, IGGy Pop is one of the few combo decks that may have a fair shot against Hulk Flash and will also see a rise. Leyline will hurt it.
4. Leyline is versatile and hurts all graveyard-based strategies, including Loam, Terrageddon, Confinement lock, Crucible of Worlds, Threshold, Flashback, Tog/Dredge, Gravestorm, Delve, and so forth.

For that, you lose a card which hurts Solidarity and sometimes Deadguy Ale-ish decks. Solidarity is already rare and is going to become even moreso with Hulk Flash around, so I'm willing to accept a 40-60 or 35-65 match there. Alternately, a few Red Elemental Blasts could be squeaked into the board in lieu of the proposed Serum Powders, as it might help against Fish, Hulk Flash, Solidarity, and Landstill.

[Gekoratel]

Pyrostatic Pillar has to become Leyline of the Void. Here's why.

Do you believe this to be true pre-FS for those preparing for the GP or just once Future Sight becomes legal. I played against the pre-FS builds and while I believe they are strong its not really faster than Iggy Pop or Belcher. The advantage of the deck is that standard hate in the form of Pyro Pillar and Chalice is less effective against the deck.