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Thread: [DTB] Vial Goblins

  1. #6141
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Essentially everything anotherday said. It's been debated, but in the end, SGC wins as the 5-drop goblin of choice. You don't have many slots to work with at that manacost, so you have to make them count, and SGC is superior in the situations where you need a bomb.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  2. #6142

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    @Two:
    Your list is quite aggressive. It looks really good for the lack of Wastelands/Ports

    @Kiki Jiki:
    Sorry, i only asked about Kiki-Jiki because I don't have a 3rd Siege-Gang Commander and wanted to win in 3 turns with him in the sideboard against combo.

  3. #6143
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Hey guys!

    Yesterday my friend and I were discussing Lead the Stampede for the green splash in Goblins.
    It may serve as Ringleader 5-8.

    Tom

  4. #6144

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom T View Post
    Hey guys!

    Yesterday my friend and I were discussing Lead the Stampede for the green splash in Goblins.
    It may serve as Ringleader 5-8.

    Tom
    Maybe 5-6... but having too many of them has obvious negative implications on your ringleaders 1-4.

  5. #6145

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Matron is already Ringleaders 5-8... or whatever else you need it to be.

  6. #6146
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Picked up the deck again and just looking for sideboard input. Currently as follows...

    3 Mindbreak Trap
    1 Boartusk Liege
    1 Goblin Tinkerer
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Red Elemental Blast
    3 Perish

    Do Chalices take priority over Mindbreak Trap?
    And I'm thinking Pyrokinesis is gonna replace REB, but not sure yet?
    Quote Originally Posted by FakeSpam
    EDIT: 2 mods post in this thread. Where's Matt P when you need him.

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  7. #6147

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Chalice has less weaknesses then Mindbreak Trap and Chalice works against more decktypes.

  8. #6148

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Is there a thread or a current deck list for R/G Goblins?

  9. #6149
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by anotherday View Post
    Matron is already Ringleaders 5-8... or whatever else you need it to be.
    Is that supposed to be an argument why we shouldn't try out 1-2 Lead the Stampedes? Playing LtS doesn't lower your Matron or Ringleader count... it just adds to the explosive card advantage without polluting the goblin count to much. Good Ringleader resolves make us win, so I don't see why it's not worth testing.

  10. #6150
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessaja View Post
    Chalice has less weaknesses then Mindbreak Trap and Chalice works against more decktypes.
    I'm guessing that's because of Orim's Chant / Silence / FoW? I only ask because last time I checked, being an artifact IS a pretty big weakness.
    What else does Chalice come in against other than Belcher and Storm?
    Quote Originally Posted by FakeSpam
    EDIT: 2 mods post in this thread. Where's Matt P when you need him.

    EDIT2: I love men......

    right here buddy...

  11. #6151

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    Is that supposed to be an argument why we shouldn't try out 1-2 Lead the Stampedes? Playing LtS doesn't lower your Matron or Ringleader count... it just adds to the explosive card advantage without polluting the goblin count to much. Good Ringleader resolves make us win, so I don't see why it's not worth testing.
    Don't get me wrong. I think the card has potential, but I just don't see it making the cut. The 3drop spot is already cluttered enough. It can't be cheated into play for free/cheap via Lackey, Vial, or Warchief. In a deck as mana hungry as goblins, its a huge tempo sink. It has negative interaction with Ringleader. And on top of it all, the CA in goblins is already so good with Matron, Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, and potentially MWM. If I'm gonna be splashing for green, or any color for that matter, its gonna be to shore up the deck's weaknesses, not to improve on what the deck already excels at. But hey, this is just my opinion. If testing proves otherwise, good ups.

  12. #6152
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by pater View Post
    I'm guessing that's because of Orim's Chant / Silence / FoW? I only ask because last time I checked, being an artifact IS a pretty big weakness.
    What else does Chalice come in against other than Belcher and Storm?
    This depends on the cards you have in SB. If you don't have btétter cards you can use it against:

    * Canadian Thresh
    * Elves Combo
    * Enchantress (@1 to stop their mana-ramp and elephant grass)
    * Lands (to shut down Loam)
    * Burn
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  13. #6153
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by pater View Post
    I'm guessing that's because of Orim's Chant / Silence / FoW? I only ask because last time I checked, being an artifact IS a pretty big weakness.
    What else does Chalice come in against other than Belcher and Storm?
    It's also pretty pimp against Zoo when you're on the play. Their curve is super low AND they aren't expecting it from an aggro deck.

  14. #6154

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by anotherday View Post
    And on top of it all, the CA in goblins is already so good with Matron, Ringleader, Incinerator, SGC, and potentially MWM.
    Agreed. Mogg War Mashal is CA ALMOST like Time Walk is CA in that he buys a turn or two for drawing naturally. Besides that, he might waste removal which is also awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    This depends on the cards you have in SB. If you don't have btétter cards you can use it against:

    * Canadian Thresh
    * Elves Combo
    * Enchantress (@1 to stop their mana-ramp and elephant grass)
    * Lands (to shut down Loam)
    * Burn
    to add to that,.. sick against Dreadstill as Dreadstill lists often don't pack Ee due to low number of colours. Although UBw lists had been popping up and I've never really played against it. In testing, it was really good against traditional Dreadstill lists though.

  15. #6155
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    I just took out Instigators and replaced them with 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 War Marshals.

    Are Fanatics outdated? Does anyone have an instance where Mogg Fanatic saved their ass (recently, not 5+ years ago)?

    I only see him as a means to remove Bridge from Below, but maybe he can help with removal? Untapping Sharpshooter? Or should he just become more War Marshals or turn back into Instigators?
    Quote Originally Posted by FakeSpam
    EDIT: 2 mods post in this thread. Where's Matt P when you need him.

    EDIT2: I love men......

    right here buddy...

  16. #6156
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by pater View Post
    I just took out Instigators and replaced them with 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 War Marshals.

    Are Fanatics outdated? Does anyone have an instance where Mogg Fanatic saved their ass (recently, not 5+ years ago)?

    I only see him as a means to remove Bridge from Below, but maybe he can help with removal? Untapping Sharpshooter? Or should he just become more War Marshals or turn back into Instigators?
    MWM or Instigator is better than Fanatic. Think about the format. Are there any 1 toughness creatures to really be scared of right now?

    Lackey, Lavamancer, Confidant... That's about it.

  17. #6157
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html
    I was reading this article today and thinking about Goblins in terms of the match-ups within which Goblins is the beatdown deck. I did some quick brainstorming and this is what I’ve initially concluded-

    Match-ups where our opponent is the Beatdown-
    Zoo
    Elf Combo
    Dredge
    Painter’s Servant
    Affinity
    Springtide
    Belcher
    ANT

    Match-ups where Goblins is the Beatdown-
    Merfolk
    CounterTop
    GWB Junk
    NO Bant
    Team America
    Canadian Thresh
    Green and Taxes
    Lands
    Stax
    Enchantress
    New Horizons

    If you haven’t read the article the term “the beatdown” basically means the deck that will try to win through aggression. The other deck takes the control role and tries to win via that avenue. This certainly does not mean that all decks are either Aggro or Control, just that all MU have one deck that will be optimal when played aggressively and the other that will be better played defensively.

    I thought this was an interesting concept to apply to Goblins since it is a deck that seems so aggro at face value but actually needs to play control against most of the decks in the field. Against decks like Zoo and Affinity Goblins needs to set up a defensive board state while controlling the other deck’s creatures. Against Painter and Elf combos we need to keep them from getting the creatures in play they need to go off. We are the control player because all they need to do is play a few creatures then combo out on us T3. It’s a similar situation with Tide and Storm combo decks. They try to win by killing us before we have a chance to kill them, and it is up to us to stop them from playing a critical number of spells a turn. And Dredge is Dredge. If you can’t stop them from discarding or attack their graveyard then you’ll probably find yourself on the losing end of a Zombie blowout.

    Goblins actually gets to be the beatdown pretty much any time the opposing deck has blue AND creatures. Clearly it will be on the offensive against straight up control decks, but it also plays the beatdown role against midrange agro-control decks. Sure, Goblins still uses control elements in these matches, but it’s usually in the form of mana-denial as we develop our board with Lackeys and Vials.

    When I looked at the list I generated and applied it to my sideboard I realized that Pyrokinesis is probably the best SB card out there. It can be used against any deck that’s creature based and it can disrupt Painter and Elf combos. I still think Chalice is the best all-around anti-storm card. A problem I now see is graveyard hate. There aren’t enough recursion decks out there right now to warrant the use of 4 graveyard hate slots, but I still feel that it is necessary. Dredge becomes unwinnable wayyy too quickly if you have no answers for their graveyard (which is weird because Dredge doesn’t seem to be around much these days). What sucks about planning for Dredge is that Leyline of the Void is clearly the best card against it, except that Leyline is just plain awful against everything else.

  18. #6158
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3692.html
    I was reading this article today and thinking about Goblins in terms of the match-ups within which Goblins is the beatdown deck. I did some quick brainstorming and this is what I’ve initially concluded-

    Match-ups where our opponent is the Beatdown-
    Zoo
    Elf Combo
    Dredge
    Painter’s Servant
    Affinity
    Springtide
    Belcher
    ANT

    Match-ups where Goblins is the Beatdown-
    Merfolk
    CounterTop
    GWB Junk
    NO Bant
    Team America
    Canadian Thresh
    Green and Taxes
    Lands
    Stax
    Enchantress
    New Horizons

    If you haven’t read the article the term “the beatdown” basically means the deck that will try to win through aggression. The other deck takes the control role and tries to win via that avenue. This certainly does not mean that all decks are either Aggro or Control, just that all MU have one deck that will be optimal when played aggressively and the other that will be better played defensively.

    I thought this was an interesting concept to apply to Goblins since it is a deck that seems so aggro at face value but actually needs to play control against most of the decks in the field. Against decks like Zoo and Affinity Goblins needs to set up a defensive board state while controlling the other deck’s creatures. Against Painter and Elf combos we need to keep them from getting the creatures in play they need to go off. We are the control player because all they need to do is play a few creatures then combo out on us T3. It’s a similar situation with Tide and Storm combo decks. They try to win by killing us before we have a chance to kill them, and it is up to us to stop them from playing a critical number of spells a turn. And Dredge is Dredge. If you can’t stop them from discarding or attack their graveyard then you’ll probably find yourself on the losing end of a Zombie blowout.

    Goblins actually gets to be the beatdown pretty much any time the opposing deck has blue AND creatures. Clearly it will be on the offensive against straight up control decks, but it also plays the beatdown role against midrange agro-control decks. Sure, Goblins still uses control elements in these matches, but it’s usually in the form of mana-denial as we develop our board with Lackeys and Vials.

    When I looked at the list I generated and applied it to my sideboard I realized that Pyrokinesis is probably the best SB card out there. It can be used against any deck that’s creature based and it can disrupt Painter and Elf combos. I still think Chalice is the best all-around anti-storm card. A problem I now see is graveyard hate. There aren’t enough recursion decks out there right now to warrant the use of 4 graveyard hate slots, but I still feel that it is necessary. Dredge becomes unwinnable wayyy too quickly if you have no answers for their graveyard (which is weird because Dredge doesn’t seem to be around much these days). What sucks about planning for Dredge is that Leyline of the Void is clearly the best card against it, except that Leyline is just plain awful against everything else.
    Interesting thought. Regarding graveyard-hate: Leyline is also the best answer we have on Lands aand New Horizons (although NH can be shattered by Perish alone). I agree with you that gravehate should be lowerd to 3 slots - that again makes Leyline nearly unplayable (since it is best as 4-of). If you want to have a solid Dredge MU and run only 3 GYH slots you should probably rely on echo-triggers of Stingscourger and MWM as well as on SKirk Prospector and Warren Weirding, all of which blast Bridge from Below. Plus, Those cards are excellent in stalling their tokens.
    Following this logic, what do you think of this list?

    //Lands [22]
    7 Wasteland/Port
    4 Badlands
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Auntie's Hovel
    4 Mountain
    1 Volrath's Stronghold

    //Core [26]
    ...

    //Others [7 + 5]
    3 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Warren Weirding
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter

    1 Skirk Prospector
    4 Mogg War Marshal

    //Sideboard [15]
    2 Tomod's Crypt
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Earwig Squad
    3 Pyrokinesis
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  19. #6159
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post

    Match-ups where our opponent is the Beatdown-
    Zoo
    Elf Combo
    Dredge
    Painter’s Servant
    Affinity
    Springtide
    Belcher
    ANT

    Match-ups where Goblins is the Beatdown-
    Merfolk
    CounterTop
    GWB Junk
    NO Bant
    Team America
    Canadian Thresh
    Green and Taxes
    Lands
    Stax
    Enchantress
    New Horizons
    .
    I dont think that i can totally agree with this list.
    Against Affinity and Merfolk it totally depends on the draws. If Affinity doesnt have a real quick start with many creatures oder Thopter+Equip Goblins is the Beatdown. And against Merfolk id say we´re more often in a control position, burning Fishs down with Incinerators and win via Ringleaders card draw.
    Also i dont see where goblins isnt beatdown agains ANT or Tide, exept a few sb cards we have no way to interact with ANT.
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

  20. #6160

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by pater View Post
    I just took out Instigators and replaced them with 2 Mogg Fanatic and 2 War Marshals.

    Are Fanatics outdated? Does anyone have an instance where Mogg Fanatic saved their ass (recently, not 5+ years ago)?

    I only see him as a means to remove Bridge from Below, but maybe he can help with removal? Untapping Sharpshooter? Or should he just become more War Marshals or turn back into Instigators?
    Mogg Fanatic allows you to curve out better so you don't have to mulligan so much. That's all I got. Seems logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post

    //Sideboard [15]
    2 Tomod's Crypt
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Cabal Therapy
    2 Earwig Squad
    3 Pyrokinesis
    I went with 2 relic, 1 crypt after vengevine disappeared. I think it's safer to go wtih more relics because relic is a constant threat when it's on the board while crypt is kind of a one shot deal.

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