[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Awesomator]

Do you believe this to be true pre-FS for those preparing for the GP or just once Future Sight becomes legal. I played against the pre-FS builds and while I believe they are strong its not really faster than Iggy Pop or Belcher. The advantage of the deck is that standard hate in the form of Pyro Pillar and Chalice is less effective against the deck.

Actually the pre FS build is harder to deal with for goblins than post FS. I don't think Hulk will be around enough to worry about it pre FS, and pre FS Hulk players won't do very well most likely.

[Gekoratel]

Thanks for the advice I figured we would have a better matchup against the post-FS list because Chalice becomes a lot more relevant, its just a question of how good and popular the deck will be before FS kicks in.

[Awesomator]

Thanks for the advice I figured we would have a better matchup against the post-FS list because Chalice becomes a lot more relevant, its just a question of how good and popular the deck will be before FS kicks in.

A majority of the players in the Hulk forum have considered playing the deck at GP. Some players have already decided to play it. I wouldn't focus my board against it, but it's almost a bye for them. Once I read the posts right before GP, I will hopefully figure out how much of the field is going to turn to Hulk Flash. Scouting early will also help, and I will have a different board for both situations. Most likely, Hulk won't be popular enough.

[Shriekmaw]

If you want to opt for the black splash, then what are you running in the main deck? 3-4 copies of cabal therapy? I agree that the black splash is better against combo, but is it worth making all you other matchups even worse?

I agree after Future Sight becomes legal black is the way to go, but until then I would have to argue against it.

To say the field of combo will be between 20-40% is being irresponsible to all magic players.

[Tacosnape]

Do you believe this to be true pre-FS for those preparing for the GP or just once Future Sight becomes legal. I played against the pre-FS builds and while I believe they are strong its not really faster than Iggy Pop or Belcher. The advantage of the deck is that standard hate in the form of Pyro Pillar and Chalice is less effective against the deck.

Good question. As I can't afford to go to the GP, I was meaning the comment as post-FS. I don't think Hulk Flash will be that abundant at the GP to worry about it just yet.

To say the field of combo will be between 20-40% is being irresponsible to all magic players.

I'm not saying the field of combo will be 20%-40%. I'm saying the field of this deck and this deck only will be 20%-40% in the future. That's not irresponsible. That's realistic. People who want to win first and foremost will run this deck.

And I don't mean at the GP. Hulk Flash won't crack 5% at the GP.

[Awesomator]

I'm not saying the field of combo will be 20%-40%. I'm saying the field of this deck and this deck only will be 20%-40% in the future. That's not irresponsible. That's realistic. People who want to win first and foremost will run this deck.

And I don't mean at the GP. Hulk Flash won't crack 5% at the GP.

I completely agree. Post FS, Hulk will be too fast and too consistant, backed by 8 free MD counters. Hulk is so strong that it makes most decks unplayable. Hulk will become a large percentage of the field.

[Nihil Credo]

Why not just MD REB? It's good against Hulk, and every deck built with the intention of beating Hulk.

I'd bet dollars to pesos that if you play anyone at the GP NOT running blue, it's cause they didn't get the memo, and thus, probably suck anyway.

For the Hulk Flash metagame, there's a card that will improve this deck.

However, if you play this deck in the Hulk Flash metagame, you suck anyway.

[Shriekmaw]

And I don't mean at the GP. Hulk Flash won't crack 5% at the GP.

Okay, I just wanted to clarify about the deck in regards to the GP. I think a lot of people want to focus on what will win at the GP. Later on, we can discuss the proper build of Goblins post Future Sight.

[Tacosnape]

Then said people are welcome to ignore my posts. I'm not going to be told by you not to post ideas that extend beyond one tournament.

Boarding the Leylines at the GP isn't an awful idea anyway. There will be a lot of Threshold and possibly more Ill-Gotten Gains combo than you'd expect. Not to mention that yes, some people are going to take Hulk Flash to the GP. And there's going to be Life from the Loam control. And Survival. And so on and so on.

[Shriekmaw]

Then said people are welcome to ignore my posts. I'm not going to be told by you not to post ideas that extend beyond one tournament.

Boarding the Leylines at the GP isn't an awful idea anyway. There will be a lot of Threshold and possibly more Ill-Gotten Gains combo than you'd expect. Not to mention that yes, some people are going to take Hulk Flash to the GP. And there's going to be Life from the Loam control. And Survival. And so on and so on.

Lets get cracking with some ideas on the black splash. What would you main deck in Goblins and what would your sideboard look like?

[Zach Tartell]

Bennett Toms, the RB goblins player who beat me at the GAGG had 3 cabal therapies main, and two Dranlu's blessing (or whatever - gives Goblins +1/+1 for something like 1RB or 2RB). I think 4 therapies main is good, and perhaps some duresses, but I think it'd important to try and jsut race game 1 against combo, then win game 2. Or 2 and 3, if it's like belcher.

The problem is that if you have too many hate cards mained, it makes your ringleaders teh suk.

[sammiel]

if, and thats a really big IF, but if we get this combo winter that everyone's raving about, would putting ringleaders to the side be worth it? since they are pretty much ass in combo matchups anyway.

[Shriekmaw]

Bennett Toms, the RB goblins player who beat me at the GAGG had 3 cabal therapies main, and two Dranlu's blessing (or whatever - gives Goblins +1/+1 for something like 1RB or 2RB). I think 4 therapies main is good, and perhaps some duresses, but I think it'd important to try and jsut race game 1 against combo, then win game 2. Or 2 and 3, if it's like belcher.

The problem is that if you have too many hate cards mained, it makes your ringleaders teh suk.

I saw the list where he ran the 3 main deck therapies and have Dranlu's Crusade in the board for BR1 that turns all your creatures into zombies plus there normal type and gives them +1/+1. I do really like the crusade in the board if you go with the black splash.

I would almost think about running the full 4 therapies main deck and maybe consider adding a few duress in the board just for combo. I think therapy is enough if you stay with the 4 pillar and 4 chalice in the board to fight combo decks. I would also play Leyline of the Void in the board.

You don't want to overload the deck with hate cards, but therapy is really good by having the ability to easily flash it back.

[Tacosnape]

Alternately, since we can't seem to find a single card that hates on every combo in existence, I've thought about going down to 28-29 Goblins, maindecking some combination of an artifact/enchantment removal card and Pyrokinesis, and then having a 15-card Combo-beating sideboard with anything ranging from Leyline to Chalice to Serum Powder to REB to Children of Korlis to Pithing Needle to Engineered Explosives.

[Sims]

It seems as though the deck is almost devolving... Without hate, the deck just isn't fast enough to stop some of the current combos in the format... So we run into the problem that it's hard to fit this main deck hate without hurting the "Goblin-core." So maybe we should think a little abstractly... We know certain cards in the deck are bad in the combo matches, Ringleader has been mentioned... What about the concept, that if this true combo-winter happens (again the If), of devolving the deck to a Goblin Sligh frame... reducing the utility Goblins and leaving the Core-Goblins in, and then using what were typically burn slots for disruption? It slows the potential kill, but it allows more maindeck slots for disruption along the lines of Duress and Therapies. I guess the biggest question would be, is the reduced clock and consistency worth the added disruption? The deck could still get the random Lackey -> Warchief -> double Piledriver win.... So it's not like it will completely lack explosiveness.

Might be worth a shot.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think it's so much that the deck is devolving as it is that Hulk Flash has provided an impossible scenario of there being a full set of combo decks that don't succumb to the same hate cards. Hulk Flash being as broken as it is, we'd need eight to twelve cards dedicated solely to stopping it to have even an outside chance. And if we do that, we lose to all other combo decks.

With any reasonable sanity, Flash will get banned. Goblins remains a high level deck in Legacy if this is so. If not, it's pretty much a dead one. And if Goblins goes, then all the even more annoying decks its kept in check start crawling out of the woodwork.

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that if Flash remains unbanned, some major tournament (if not several) in the near future will end without a single red card or red mana symbol being in the top eight. Red is a nonexistant color in a Hulk Flash meta, and Goblins is as red as decks come.

[Shriekmaw]

I

With any reasonable sanity, Flash will get banned. Goblins remains a high level deck in Legacy if this is so. If not, it's pretty much a dead one. And if Goblins goes, then all the even more annoying decks its kept in check start crawling out of the woodwork.

I believe we will see this deck go away after June 1st, when Wizards updates their ban and restricted lists. If this goes unbanned, I don't see Goblins as being that good in the format like it once was. This would be a bad idea, because it would allow a lot of decks to become more popular, just for the simply fact that Goblins wouldn't be played that much.

I would imagine that a lot of Legacy players would not want a format where you either have to play Combo or something that beats Combo (Aggro/Control) or you basically have no chance of winning regularly in this format.

[Tacosnape]

I believe we will see this deck go away after June 1st, when Wizards updates their ban and restricted lists. If this goes unbanned, I don't see Goblins as being that good in the format like it once was. This would be a bad idea, because it would allow a lot of decks to become more popular, just for the simply fact that Goblins wouldn't be played that much.

I would imagine that a lot of Legacy players would not want a format where you either have to play Combo or something that beats Combo (Aggro/Control) or you basically have no chance of winning regularly in this format.

QFT. I think that's the first thing you've ever said that I completely agree with. I certainly don't want that sort of a format. I like playing in a "Tier 2" format where any one of 30+ decks can win a tournament. To me, that's what separates Legacy from any other format and makes it the most fun.

Goblins would be dead. As would the entire color of Red. Magic would become essentially 4 colors if Flash remained legal.

[Bane of the Living]

Seriously stop talking about whether or not HF will bite the dust. It has nothing to do with the current development of goblins since we know Flash is absolutely legal for GP. Yes people are gonna play this deck. I know alot of us on the source are abandoning our pet decks to rock the all star. After all if you cant beat them join them right? Here is my projected outlook on the GP..

Hulk Flash 10-15%
Goblins 15-20%
Thresh 15-20%
Solidarity 5-10%
Landstill 5-10%
Tendrils 5%
Iggy Pop 5-10%
Golden Grahams 2%
Loam Control 2%
Stax 2%
Enchantress 2%
Stompy Varients/Homebrews 5-10%
Red Death//Deadguy Ale 5-10%
Extended.dec 10%
Affinity//AfFOWnity 5%
Land.dec 2%

Given this meta Id certainly abandon Green Goblins and pick up some Therapies. Blue decks will be all over the place which Therapy is still great against. Here's the list Id go with were I to bring gobs..

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
5 Mountain
4 Rishadin Port
4 Wasteland

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Aether Vial

4 Goblin Lackey
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Mogg War Marshall
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Ringleader
2 SGC

SB
2 Goblin Ringleader
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
2 ?

I really like War Marshall in the deck as a two drop. Against combo he helps speed the clock a great deal when seen with Warcheif and Piledriver. Hes the perfect 2 drop after a turn one Therapy. I cut down on Ringleaders since your taking gobs out for therapy and adding even more non gobs post board. The extras are in the board to battle Thresh the mirror and landstill. Im not sure about maindecking Leyline because therapy seems to be a better card against more matchups.

[Bardu]

Do we really need Pyrokinesis SB in a Hulk Flash dominated meta? Goblins will hardly be the DTB. Duress and/or Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast would work well against both HF and the blue decks built to beat it.

Since we are splashing black, we lose an answer to Plague. I think at least 2 Patron of the Akki would be helpful too.