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Thread: [DTB] Vial Goblins

  1. #6101

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    T1 Mountain, lackey
    T2 Mountain, attack with Lackey for 1, trigger SGC into play, cast Piledriver
    T3 Attack with lackey, tokens, SGC and a 11/2 Piledriver for 17 damage. Sac a token off SGC for 2 damage. 1+17+2= 20 and a T3 kill.
    I always Port or Wasteland, so that didn't occur to me. I'm afraid the combo player will have 2 open mana on their turn. Very nice though, maybe I'll try that next time. My apologies to GoboLord.

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    So what's "big"? No combo hate or 6 SB slots of combo hate? As a TES player, what would you reasonably expect a SB look like to beat you?
    Yes, that would be "big," considering the general concensus is if you have 6, you are playing too many. I would say diversity. TES is quite susceptible to mana denial. I'd get annoyed at Chalice @ 0, but I honestly don't think it alone will win the game.

    Against Merfolk, mana denial + a clock usually kills me because I'm finding lands + Duress to get rid of countermagic + I'm getting beat. I think Mindbreak Trap in combination with Chalice + port and wasteland would have the same effect. I think discard is quite good against Combo, but only if they don't expect it. If you fetched Badland first turn, I think most combo players will see it coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomsday View Post
    You are not going to "rape" combo decks with 6 sideboard cards with this deck. Literally, the only relevant maindeck cards you have are Wasteland and maybe Port (and Port is not especially effective at all). Like you said in the second part, your best hope against combo is praying not to see it in significant numbers. Banking on the control decks sending it to the lower tables and then beating up on control decks is a perfectly legitimate metagame strategy though.
    agreed

  2. #6102

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    They don't play Swords to Plowshares and Vindicates?
    Ofcourse they do, but they need the Swords to remove the lackeys on turn 1... You're only losing to double-plague and as soon as they reach that, you have them at 5-10 life most of the time and probably depleted their hand...

  3. #6103

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by BWM View Post
    Ofcourse they do, but they need the Swords to remove the lackeys on turn 1... You're only losing to double-plague and as soon as they reach that, you have them at 5-10 life most of the time and probably depleted their hand...
    why would they swords your lackey when they are holdling plague?

  4. #6104
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    why would they swords your lackey when they are holdling plague?
    I don't know? possible T3 kill?

    From my own experience:

    I was once playing against Eva green and T1 lackey- Go, he does nothing.
    I attack with lackey, drop warchief, play chieftain.
    his T2, he drops SDT, tops..does nothing really.
    T3, drop piledriver, chieftain. kick his butt!

    he reveals his hand, 2x land, 1 pulse, 2x plague, 1x 5/5 flying fatty.


    now it's still a very good reason to T1 stp or snuff out that lackey.

  5. #6105

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by practical joke View Post
    I don't know? possible T3 kill?

    From my own experience:

    I was once playing against Eva green and T1 lackey- Go, he does nothing.
    I attack with lackey, drop warchief, play chieftain.
    his T2, he drops SDT, tops..does nothing really.
    T3, drop piledriver, chieftain. kick his butt!

    he reveals his hand, 2x land, 1 pulse, 2x plague, 1x 5/5 flying fatty.


    now it's still a very good reason to T1 stp or snuff out that lackey.
    I see. You guys get possible T3 kills quite often. How should I increase this? More Chieftains? More Seige Gangas? I can't play more Piledrivers...

  6. #6106
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    I see. You guys get possible T3 kills quite often. How should I increase this? More Chieftains? More Seige Gangas? I can't play more Piledrivers...
    If you play mono-red....more lords in SB against plagues works fine.
    then again I play 5 lords mainboard (4 chieftains and 1 boartusk and 2 more boartusks in SB against firespout and plagues)

  7. #6107

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    why would they swords your lackey when they are holdling plague?
    So they don't lose?

  8. #6108

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Hello everyone,

    This is my first post on the forum, although I've read most of this goblin thread over the past half a year.

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    I see. You guys get possible T3 kills quite often. How should I increase this? More Chieftains? More Seige Gangas? I can't play more Piledrivers...
    Beating combo by just winning before they do, that would be... awesome. T3 kills happen every now and then, but very few without Lackey and Piledriver.

    But just because I like puzzling I've done some research. Common builds (although many builds don't run Instigator, Chieftain, Stingscourger* or Lightning Bolt) can come up with these kind of T3 wins.

    *Stingscourger can usually be replaced with any goblin.

    I'll repeat some of those mentioned above, just to have it in one post.

    T1 Lackey
    T2 SGC + Piledriver
    T3 Attack and sac a Goblin for the final point of damage.

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + MWM + Piledriver
    T3 Matron + Stingscourger (removing a blocker even!)

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Matron
    T3 Piledriver + Stingscourger + MWM

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Piledriver + Piledriver
    T3 Chieftain

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Chieftain
    T3 Piledriver + Stingscourger

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Chieftain + Piledriver
    T3 MWM + Lackey

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Chieftain + Piledriver
    T3 MWM + Lightning Bolt

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Matron
    T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + Any goblin/bolt.

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Matron
    T3 Chieftain + Piledriver

    or depending on what order you draw your spells in:

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Chieftain
    T3 Matron + Piledriver


    There are probably a couple more like this, once you get Lackey + Warchief + Piledriver, the other goblins/bolts are variable.

    Wins without Piledriver

    T1 Lackey
    T2 SGC + Instigator
    T3 Chieftain + Chieftain on Instigators first trigger.

    T1 Lackey
    T2 SGC + Instigator
    T3 Chieftain + Sacrifice a goblin + Lightning Bolt

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Chieftain
    T3 MWM + Chieftain

    T1 Lackey
    T2 SGC + Lightning Bolt + Lightning Bolt
    T3 Chieftain

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Instigator
    T3 The ridiculous MWM + MWM + (MWM Or Bolt) + Chieftain. Which will only work on the draw, not so good!

    And then, the Lackeyless wins

    Not going to happen unless you have Skirk Prospector, Goblin Guide or Goblin Bushwhacker.

    T1 Vial
    T2 Piledriver + Bushwhacker
    T3 Piledriver + Bushwhacker

    T1 Goblin Guide
    T2 Piledriver
    T3 Goblin Guide + Goblin Guide + Lightning Bolt (yeah right)

    T1 Goblin Guide
    T2 Goblin Guide + Goblin Guide
    T3 Lightning Bolt + Bushwhacker

    And maybe a few more of those ridiculous multiple Goblin Guided hands but there is a good reason not to play that many Goblin Guides!

    Now Skirk Prospector has some options:

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Warchief
    T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + Stingscourger

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 MWM -> Warchief
    T3 Matron -> Piledriver + MWM + Matron -> Piledriver

    T1 Vial
    T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Warchief + MWM + Lightning Bolt + Lightning Bolt. Not going to happen on the play.

    T1 Vial
    T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Warchief + MWM + Matron -> MWM -> Siege-gang. Not going to happen on the play.

    But Prospector also opens up more T3 Lackey kills, like:

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Ringleader + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Warchief + MWM + Matron + MWM + SGC + Piledriver or pretty much anything if you have enough Matrons/Ringleaders/MWM...

    Anyways, no more time to waste on thinking up T3 kills at the moment, but I'll work on some more later (I'll add a couple of Goblin Lookout ones as well, and maybe a Sharpshooter-prospector one too).

    Note!

    Many of these T3 kills require lots of mountains, so they aren't port/wasteland friendly...

    Note #2, I rarely play tournaments, but I've played the game for a long time and read a lot about tournaments, this post is mostly born out of my goldfish habits and I know that the chances on some of these are ridiculously tiny.

    Note #3, There are many many more T3 kills possible if the opponent takes 1 or 2 damage from fetches.

    And erm, thanks for posting on this thread everyone! I enjoyed reading it.
    Last edited by Nameless Two; 01-28-2011 at 11:37 AM.

  9. #6109
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    This dude copied my name :(

    The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.

    I think the combo matchup is all based on luck on game one. Games two and three all depends on your dedicated hate. Some say that Chalice of the Void is effective while other run Thorn of Amethyst since it can also help against problematic control decks (such as Enchantress?).
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

  10. #6110
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Good job. I really like this summary of T3-kills and I really want to hear more about them, especially those with Lookout.
    You made a note that you need 8 cards for some of those options - could you also add notes where we can go wild with even mulligan 6?
    Thanks for that!
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  11. #6111
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    This dude copied my name :(

    The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.
    .
    Boo. Hater.

    It's a good list of kills. I hadn't stopped to think of all the ways the deck can knock a combo deck out quickly without hate, and this list was definitely an eye opener. It's making me rethink running Warcheif and Chieftains as 3-ofs. Warchief should probably be a 4-of.

  12. #6112
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    This thread definitly needs a new one with an actual primer.
    The questions and discussions about the card choices, especially SB combohate will fill endless sites otherwise.
    I really think half year ago we came to the up and downs of the 3-5 cards that are interesting for goblins.

    btw good to see how well goblins are doing now that survival is gone.
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  13. #6113

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    This dude copied my name :(

    The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.

    I think the combo matchup is all based on luck on game one. Games two and three all depends on your dedicated hate. Some say that Chalice of the Void is effective while other run Thorn of Amethyst since it can also help against problematic control decks (such as Enchantress?).
    Sorry Nameless One, I hadn't checked but I assumed anyone that would want the name would take it clean... and apparently that name was open. My sincere apologies.

    Bushwhackers aren't popular in Legacy, I know, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be considered. Especially if you are in a small combo heavy metagame. (Like mine often is, I'd say 60% combo on some occasions) And for the purpose of figuring out T3 kills they are fun stuff.

    Single prospectors still add to the chances of things happening. T3 Kills are rare, prospector or no prospector.
    Being lucky will ofcourse be more important. Beating combo can be done by having good dedicated hate, and it can be done by reducing their chances. I don't think killing them before T3 is a valid strategy simply because the chances are slim.

    But I think it is a good thing to realise that sometimes you can just race. And I like extreme measures, like taking out all Vials, Ringleaders and Incinerators for Guides, Chieftains and Bushwhackers. (Yes this is terribly bad and I wouldn't recommend a waste of 12 sideboard slots, I just had nothing else on me at the time and this was good fun)

    Also: I don't have Wastelands or Rishadan Ports, I play with Mutavaults instead. (Partly a Metagame issue, lots of monocolored/basic land decks/decks without lands)

    Allright, for GoboLord a few Lookout ones:

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Lookout + Warchief
    T3 Chieftain + MWM

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Lookout + Chieftain
    T3 MWM + Lackey

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Piledriver + Warchief
    T3 Lookout + Stingscourger

    T1 Vial
    T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Warchief + MWM + Lookout

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Warchief
    T3 Piledriver + Piledriver + Lookout

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 MWM
    T3 MWM + Lookout + Bushwhacker + Lightning Bolt

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Instigator + Lookout
    T3 Skirk Prospector + Bushwhacker

    T1 Vial
    T2 Instigator + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Instigator + Bushwhacker + Lookout

    T1 Vial
    T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Lookout + Bushwhacker + Lightning Bolt

    There are probably some more... will think up some later...

    As for the hands, basically count the cards used. Most of the time 3 lands are required on turn 3 so up to 6 other cards can be used on the play, 7 on the draw. Prospector opens a lot of random chains on turn three if you get enough MWM to start chaining and go on with Ringleader (prospector is the only enabler for wins with a Ringleader off your lackey attack on turn 2 I believe...)

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Ringleader + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Warchief + MWM (sac lackey) + Ringleader + Matron (sac both Ringleaders) + MWM + Piledriver + Chieftain + Skirk Prospector + Lackey

    That is 12 goblins + 3 lands used but Matron and 2 Ringleaders could have netted us 6 of those I guess. (long chains like this can go in a bazillion directions so I can't work out all the possible T3 kills ever...)

    The few T3 kills that only feature 5 cards are the ones you could still get on the play on a mulligan to 6. The Lackey + SGC + Piledriver hand is the cleanest and can be done with a mulligan to 4 on the play.

    And yeah jrw, the Warchiefs and Chieftains do come up a lot on these quick kills... Haste is often necessary, so if there are no Warchiefs or Chieftains I have to fix that gap with Bushwhackers or maybe some other options.

    And Humphrey, it's only sad that the death of survival had to be the cause ;)

  14. #6114

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    This dude copied my name :(

    The problem with about is that not everyone runs Chieftain, let alone Bushwackers. Some run only single Prospectors.

    I think the combo matchup is all based on luck on game one. Games two and three all depends on your dedicated hate. Some say that Chalice of the Void is effective while other run Thorn of Amethyst since it can also help against problematic control decks (such as Enchantress?).
    LOL I thought it was you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless One View Post
    ...
    Thanks so much. This definately should be on the primer! Great job. I'm glad you included cards that rarely see play so that we can find out what are the most common cards included in this 3rd turn kill. Thanks so much. I'm horrible at math so this will help me a lot in sideboarding against combo!

    Hey got anything with kiki-Jiki or Goblin Pyromancer? Just curious...
    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    Boo. Hater.

    It's a good list of kills. I hadn't stopped to think of all the ways the deck can knock a combo deck out quickly without hate, and this list was definitely an eye opener. It's making me rethink running Warcheif and Chieftains as 3-ofs. Warchief should probably be a 4-of.
    Yeah seems like Skirk Prospector/MwM/Chieftain are quite involved in these. In addition, I noticed Lightning Bolt was also quite common. Instigator was surprisingly scarce though but not absent.

    He also presents a good argumetn for Stingscourger. Removes a blocker!! We can send Emrakul back when he shows up to ruin our turn 3 hands.

  15. #6115

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    And another few I thought up while being unable to sleep...

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
    T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC (off lackey) then start sacrificing the goblins to the SGC for the final points...

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Instigator + Instigator
    T3 Chieftain + Lookout

    And lets try something with Kiki-Jiki who is surprisingly elegant at providing t3 wins with Lackey & Chieftain

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Kiki-Jiki + MWM
    T3 Chieftain

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Kiki-Jiki + Piledriver
    T3 Chieftain

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Kiki-Jiki + Instigator
    T3 Chieftain + (Chieftain/Goblin Lookout)

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Skirk Prospector
    T3 MWM + Kiki-Jiki + Piledriver + Tarfire? (Not going to happen on the play)

    One I missed earlier on (of the many)

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Warchief
    T3 MWM + Piledriver + Lookout

    And some Pyromancer ones

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Piledriver + Lookout
    T3 Pyromancer (one of the more overkill-ones), 33 damage

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Piledriver
    T3 Pyromancer Will easily do the job as well.

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + MWM
    T3 Pyromancer

    And one that might be very important, it doesn't reach 20, but 19 and is relatively easy since it can function on Matron finding Pyromancer. Opponent will have to fetch though...

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Matron
    T3 Pyromancer

    or 20 with

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Matron
    T3 Pyromancer + Mogg Fanatic

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 MWM + Warchief
    T3 Pyromancer + ( Lightning Bolt/MWM/Piledriver )

    And then something that will rarely happen again:

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Kiki-Jiki + MWM
    T3 Skirk Prospector + Pyromancer

    T1 Vial
    T2 Piledriver + Skirk Prospector
    T3 Warchief + MWM + Pyromancer

    And one more for fun

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Chieftain + Piledriver
    T3 Chieftain + Mogg Fanatic

    T1 Lackey
    T2 SGC + MWM
    T3 Chieftain + Lightning Crafter

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Piledriver + Piledriver
    T3 Warchief + Lightning Crafter

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Warchief
    T3 Matron + Matron + Piledriver + Mogg Fanatic

    And the horribly bad

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Tuktuk
    T3 Warren Weirding + Piledriver

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Piledriver + Piledriver
    T3 Mutavault

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + MWM + Piledriver
    T3 Mutavault + (Stingscourger/Mogg Fanatic/Tarfire/Whatever)

    More will come probably..

  16. #6116
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    @ Primer:
    Yeah this thread needs a new primer. I really like to write one since I already wrote a Goblin primer for a German legacy-forum (and got some postive feedback). It won't be an 1:1 translation, cause I want to include recent developments and ideas (which my primer lacks). Plus, FoulQ emailed me his Goblin-primer long ago, which I found very good. I'll try to come up with some mix of FoulQ's and my own primer with updates from recent discussions. Maybe someone is willing to read it before I "publish" it - just let me now via PM.
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  17. #6117
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Just to post one I like a lot:

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Kiki Jiki
    T3 Lightning Crafter + Prospector.

    That can be done with a 3 cards hand on the play.
    Sweet.

    Edit: Sweet Jesus!

    Land + Lackey+ Kiki + Crafter + Prospector + MWM + MWM kills on Turn 2!
    I need to do that in a tournament!
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  18. #6118

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Ahh! Sweet, now that's thinking outside my box ;).

    Opens up to

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Lackey
    T3 Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter too (stack it correctly, it'll work)

    Or

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Instigator
    T3 Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

    Or

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Warchief + Matron
    T3 Kiki-Jiki + Skirk Prospector + Lightning Crafter

    T1
    T2 Instigator
    T3 Skirk Prospector + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Instigator
    T3 Matron + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Instigator
    T3 Ringleader + Kiki-Jiki + Lightning Crafter

    T1 Skirk Prospector
    T2 Instigator
    T3 Matron + Ringleader + Kiki-Jiki + MWM + Lightning Crafter

    Maybe even more coming later...

    Thanks ScatmanX

    Edit:

    And that turn 2 kill is cool, for those who can't figure it out:

    T1 Mountain, Lackey
    T2 Mountain, Trigger lackey to bring Kiki-Jiki into play, cast prospector, sac lackey and tap mountain to cast MWM, sac MWM and the 2 tokens for 3 mana, play MWM sac the MWM and the 2 tokens for 3 Mana (4 mana total now), play Crafter.
    Before championing, copy the Crafter with your Kiki-Jiki, champion Kiki-Jiki with the copy, shoot your opponent before championing the Lightning Crafter copy.
    Your Kiki-Jiki returns to copy the Lightning Crafter who champions Kiki-Jiki. You now sac the Lightning Crafter to your prospector after pinging your opponent. Kiki-Jiki returns and you can loop this to deal any amount of damage to your opponent. Brilliant!

  19. #6119

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless One View Post

    T1 Lackey
    T2 Skirk Prospector + Goblin Sharpshooter
    T3 MWM + Ringleader + SGC (off lackey) then start sacrificing the goblins to the SGC for the final points...
    I was trying to avoid Lightning Crafter, but there you go. LOL. I quoted this one because I was working on it for awhile and couldn't figure it out. I could only deal 16 damage. What did I miss count?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless One View Post
    T1 Lackey
    T2 Kiki-Jiki + MWM
    T3 Chieftain
    hmm,.. are you copying mogg war marshal T2? ... yes n/m that makes sense...

  20. #6120

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    No discussion on here yet about the newly spoiled Goblin Wardriver? I don't think he'll see play. If he was 1R instead of RR, I'd sure as hell make room for some.

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