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Thread: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

  1. #261
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Generally, restricting a card for Vintage means banning for Legacy. That's what I was referring to. I actually wouldn't be opposed to banning in Legacy but leaving alone in Vintage all together, but I don't know that I've heard of a card that has that type of restriction.

    As for the GP, it's a shame that players are either going to have to be a tool and tote the deck along or face the grim reality that they are going to have to prepare for it (if that's even possible). I'm curious to see what the deck composition will be if nothing is done on WotC/DCI's part. I'm certainly not afraid of it ruining the tournament. Sometimes in professional auto racing, all the drivers get identical cars (Trans Am) and compete on equal ground. That's where true skill (and some luck) shine through.

    I guess we'll just have to see. Writing letters certainly isn't going to stop WotC staff from making major mistakes in the future, they do it all the time.

  2. #262
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    You're thinking of Type 1.5 which no longer exists. Legacy is not attached to the Type 1 Restricted list anymore. There are Cards restricted in T1 that are Legal in Legacy iirc. Banning in Legacy does not equate to a restriction in Type 1.
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  3. #263

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    I'm against that. It's incredibly obvious that the deck is close to broken right now, and will definitely be utterly busted with FS. Why fuck up the GP metagame with a deck that just became viable last week and will inevitably be banned a couple weeks after the GP?
    Give the meta time to react? If I were Forsythe, I would probably wait until the GP to do anything. Right now what he's getting are what amount to (from his point of view, anyway) a bunch of hysterical pleas to ban a card based on it having its present wording for a week, accompanied by dire metagame predictions that are as-yet unsubstantiated. I don't expect he'll act until the GP, especially given that he's only recently said that he might be taking cards off the banned list, and people have been asking for that for, what, about forever? The truth of the matter is that this format provides low returns for Wizards compared to Standard and Extended, neither of which will be affected. Hulk Flash is just one more degenerate combo deck in Vintage, so it's basically one format that's being hurt. Keep in mind that the degenerate days of Affinity affected not just all formats, but type two in particular, which is Wizard's biggest cash cow as far as constructed formats are concerned.

    If there's no change in the card come tomorrow, prepare for the deck to show up at the GP.

  4. #264
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    I keep running into discard today. Discard is a nightmare.

    While I agree with you Spatula about this being not the exact same as a 2 card combo since you only actually cast 1, you still need 2 cards.

    The beauty of traditional storm based combo is that you only need 1 card. The mana just accels you so you can chain tutor into tutor into 1 card to win the game.

    This deck requires 2 cards to be in your hand.

    This deck doesn't run super broken tutors like Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor. Summoner's Pact will only grab Proteak Hulk (and ESG). Mystical Tutor does grab the Hulk too when you go Mystical, Summoner's, Hulk. However, it still leaves the deck in a spot where it will often draw the wrong tutor to go with the combo piece. For example, drawing a Hulk and Summoner's without a Flash or Mystical (but with a Brainstorm instead). You need both cards in hand. Goldfishing, I get lots of turn 1 kills and I almost never go off later than turn 2. When the opponent simply plays 1 Duress and pulls out your Mystical Tutor or Flash or whatever, it hurts alot. 2 Duress, 1 Duress 1 Therapy, whatever... it hurts alot. The last 6 decks I've played against have packed discard. It hurts the combo badly. Force and Negation are nice and all... but you're 2-for-1ing yourself with Force and often the only card you can pitch is the Mystical or Flash that you need to go off... and Negation doesn't stop cards precombo.

    The deck does trample over the opposition quite often. It's a good combo deck. It's not broken to the point where it's going to warp the whole format and there are going to be Hulk Flash decks and Hulk Flash hate decks.

    You guys are overhyping this deck way too much. Seriously. I've been playing this deck on MWS all day, it's been about a good 10+ hour session now. 1-2 disruption spells (oftentimes 1) even when you're holding a Force or Negation will screw you're combo over most of the time. The deck can recover but the opponent can play more disruption spells depending, and good decks have at least a decent clock.

    The deck has 11 maindeck cards that are completely dead draws. If you draw 2 Disciple, you either need to Brainstorm them away or hardcast them. Those are you're only 2 options... you cannot combo out without at least 3 Disciple. If you can play 3 Disciple, you need all 7 of your ammo guys. This may be less of an issue with a 1-of on Clone. It has been an issue for me occasionally though.

    Collecting 2 specific cards in hand to go off is tough on it's own when the tutors are narrow (Summoner's) and slow (Mystical). Discard hurts, I don't care what you guys say. Countermagic hurts too. The combo itself may be resilient and not fragile (Hulk into Disciples), but stopping the setup cards or the Flash end the decks spree. Answering the setup spell is strong because the opponent cannot use Negation. Answering Flash successfully (if they don't have Negation) after a Summoner's was cast results in a loss with no recovery. Mystical Tutor doesn't cantrip so not only is it card disadvantage, it really hurts the decks ability to cast Force of Will.

    As someone mentioned before, I think Duress may be a strong inclusion in this deck itself in place of the Pact's of Negation.

    I've already stated that I think the deck is strong. I think you guys are overhyping it way too much though. I wouldn't be giving input this passionately if I hadn't been testing the deck literally all day long.

    You guys keep saying "oh, well grab Truth to answer that Leyline" and random stuff like that... if you're wasting Mystical to grab Truth, you're not grabbing Summoner's or Flash, and you're not combo'ing off anytime soon. 12 ways to grab Hulk, 9 ways to grab Flash (not counting the Brainstorms), and if you use 4 of the 12 ways to grab Hulk, you're reducing 4 of your ways to grab Flash. Negation does nothing during setup, Force is hard to cast without pulling out crucial cards from your hand (which is why I suggested Duress a second ago).

    Rag on me all you want for my opinion on this deck. I love combo'ing off with it on turns 1 and 2. I still don't think the deck is THAT resilient to hate whatsoever, and I still don't think the deck is going to bend the format over backwards and ruin everything. The deck is strong, most likely Tier 1 strong. It still loses alot more than it's being given credit for. I've lost a few games today against Survival with Duress/Therapy simply because they raped my hand early and I couldn't topdeck into anything fast enough... Loxodon Hierarchs are savage vs this deck when it can't do the full 28 damage. I've lost a few games to U/B Landstill today simply because they Duress'd my 1st key card and then countered my next one with some Factory beats killing me before I could topdeck a 3rd key card. These are decks that aren't even supposed to be superior to combo. Of course, I've been beating the shit out of all kinds of decks today too. Sometimes, discard won't stop a Brainstorm into Flash and Hulk/Summoner's.

    I feel like I'm preaching to a wall with this though. I've seen like 3 people agree with me while everyone else and their mothers are completely against what I'm saying. Ugh. I guess there's no possible way to convince you guys. Maybe my list sucks, what's everyone else running? Does anyone wanna playest this with me? I'll play either Hulk or opposing decks, it doesn't really matter to me either way. Send me a private message on here.

    EDIT: Oh, and as an aside, I don't have a sideboard yet so all of my matches have been preboard. This may have skewed some of my results, but most of my opponent's haven't been sideboarding either. I'm sure that there's probably some strong sideboard replacements for cards like Negation (like Divert or Disrupt vs discard), but I haven't gotten that far yet. I think it's crucial to test the deck preboard alot though, since many people keep claiming the deck to go 60/40 and better vs decks like B/r Red Death, UWb Fish, and UGw Threshold which all have a ton of maindeck cards that can wreck the deck. Postboard, I'd imagine the matchup would get stronger for the opponent anyway... because while you may be siding out cards like Negation for Divert, you're not gaining any additional disruption spells (unless you weaken your combo by removing essential cards) while they are. Maybe the Disciple/ammo version isn't the best way to abuse Flash/Hulk and this is hurting my results. Maybe Negation isn't a strong card. Maybe running Chrome Mox is skewing my results. I don't know. All I know is the opinions I have been giving thus far are 100% accurate to my own current preboard testing results.

  5. #265
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel View Post
    You're thinking of Type 1.5 which no longer exists. Legacy is not attached to the Type 1 Restricted list anymore. There are Cards restricted in T1 that are Legal in Legacy iirc. Banning in Legacy does not equate to a restriction in Type 1.
    Seriously, I wasn't born yesterday. I know about the relationship between the banned and restricted lists and their subsequent separation.

  6. #266

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Hanni, do you honestly think that it was a good idea to massively shake up the metagame so close to the GP? More so since this is a very rare event for Legacy, everyone who's fine-tuned a deck for the last few monthes now has to deal with another Combo deck that is very resistant to the common forms of hate for TES, Solidarity, Belcher, etc. Null Rod, Trinisphere, Chalice (has to be on 2), Pillar, Rule of Law, etc. Goldfishing with the deck on the 1st page (minus FS cards), I'm getting easy turn one wins with mulitiple counters for back up.
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  7. #267
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin Snowman View Post
    Hanni, do you honestly think that it was a good idea to massively shake up the metagame so close to the GP? More so since this is a very rare event for Legacy, everyone who's fine-tuned a deck for the last few monthes now has to deal with another Combo deck that is very resistant to the common forms of hate for TES, Solidarity, Belcher, etc. Null Rod, Trinisphere, Chalice (has to be on 2), Pillar, Rule of Law, etc. Goldfishing with the deck on the 1st page (minus FS cards), I'm getting easy turn one wins with mulitiple counters for back up.
    Hanni doesn't care because he's playing one of the few decks that probably has a better than even matchup against Hulk Flash. In fact, if Hulk Flash causes a bunch of people to not play Goblins, all the better.
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  8. #268
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Assuming Flash gets errata or banned, you could still a version of this deck but replacing Flash with Necromancy. Granted it is slower and less resilient, but seems doable.

    See below:

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 Bloodstained mire
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Swamp
    1 Scrubland

    4 Buried Alive
    4 Necromancy
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Cabal Therapy

    4 Disciple of the Vault
    3 Phyrexian Marauder
    3 Shifting Wall
    4 Protean Hulk
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  9. #269

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by Volt View Post
    Hanni doesn't care because he's playing one of the few decks that probably has a better than even matchup against Hulk Flash. In fact, if Hulk Flash causes a bunch of people to not play Goblins, all the better.
    The only problem is, there are going to be people playing Goblins regardless, so I can't afford to sacrifice my aggro MU with whatever I deck I want to play. This means I'm going to have to play a deck I'm less comfertable with at the GP, meaning I'm going to do worse. Ugg, screwing with the metagame this badly with almost no warning.... kinda pisses me off.
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  10. #270
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by android View Post
    Generally, restricting a card for Vintage means banning for Legacy. That's what I was referring to. I actually wouldn't be opposed to banning in Legacy but leaving alone in Vintage all together, but I don't know that I've heard of a card that has that type of restriction.
    This statement and the previous one about just restricting it in Type 1 lead me in the direction to thinking that somehow you still thought the lists were connected. Granted, most cards that are restricted in Vintage are banned in Legacy, but this isn't always the case.

    Cards Banned in Legacy that are Unrestricted in Vintage:

    Bazaar of Baghdad
    Earthcraft
    Hermit Druid
    Illusionary Mask
    Land Tax
    Metalworker
    Mind over Matter
    Mishra's Workshop
    Oath of Druids
    Replenish
    Rebirth
    Skullclamp
    Tempest Efreet
    Timmermian Fiends

    Likewise there are a some that are Restricted in Type 1 but unbanned in Legacy... I'm sorry I misunderstood you, but you made it seem like just restricting it in Vintage would do the job. So while I understand the rebuke, the attitude wasn't totally warranted.
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  11. #271
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Hanni, do you honestly think that it was a good idea to massively shake up the metagame so close to the GP? More so since this is a very rare event for Legacy, everyone who's fine-tuned a deck for the last few monthes now has to deal with another Combo deck that is very resistant to the common forms of hate for TES, Solidarity, Belcher, etc. Null Rod, Trinisphere, Chalice (has to be on 2), Pillar, Rule of Law, etc. Goldfishing with the deck on the 1st page (minus FS cards), I'm getting easy turn one wins with mulitiple counters for back up.
    How is preparing for this combo deck going to be any different? Both TES, and especially Belcher, are new combo additions that many people haven't gotten around to tuning specifically for (less so for TES). Are you honestly telling me that cards aimed to improve the other combo matchups are not going to do anything to this deck at all? Duress does nothing, Stifle does nothing? Especially for the GP, Chalice at 1 is going to almost kill this deck. You lose your Worldy Tutors, Mystical Tutors, and Brainstorms. Your only out to that is going to be either casting Flash with Hulk already in hand or finding your 1-of bounce spell with only 1 or 2 Merchant Scrolls. Chalice at 0 neuters the post FS build alot too, but that's not even a concern at this point for the GP. Pillar isn't an incredibly strong card vs combo in the first place, and I don't even like Rule of Law vs combo. Decks already need to be prepared for combo and packing such hate like Duress because if not, decks like TES and Belcher are going to mop them up regardless. This deck may be stronger than those other combo decks, but that doesn't mean a disruption-less deck is going to do any better vs those... and if they have disruption, it's still going to be a rough matchup for this deck and I don't care what the rest of crowd is saying.

    Also... how can you possibly compare this deck to Yawgmoth's Will, Spatula? Yawgmoth's Will is a bomb that, if resolved, wins the game on the spot. In almost all situations if the deck is built to abuse it (like Rituals, LED's, and Infernal Tutors). With Flash, you must have Hulk or Worldly/Summoner's to win the game on the spot. If Will gets countered, you still have other routes to achieve that storm win. If Flash gets countered, you have to redig specifically for Flash because the deck is completely reliant around Flash. With Yawgmoth's Will in a deck like TES, it would be a support card to an already strong deck and make that deck completely broken. TES doesn't need Will to win though. This deck needs Flash to win. That in itself a major difference that keeps one from comparing Will to Flash. Without Flash, there is no Hulk Flash. Without Will, TES will continue to smash face. You go on to talk about more of the banned list... I think quite a few cards could come off the banned list without turning the format into a degenerated format where X deck beats everything besides the hate deck that loses to everything else. There are exceptions, some things on the list are degenerate.

  12. #272

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I've already stated that I think the deck is strong. I think you guys are overhyping it way too much though. I wouldn't be giving input this passionately if I hadn't been testing the deck literally all day long.

    I feel like I'm preaching to a wall with this though. I've seen like 3 people agree with me while everyone else and their mothers are completely against what I'm saying. Ugh. I guess there's no possible way to convince you guys. Maybe my list sucks, what's everyone else running? Does anyone wanna playest this with me? I'll play either Hulk or opposing decks, it doesn't really matter to me either way. Send me a private message on here.
    I actually don't disagree with you, Hanni. I think that, and I'm including myself in this, a lot of playtesting has gone into this format with one of the few large-scale Legacy events of the year looming in less than a month. I think that a lot of the knee-jerk reactions we've all been having are related to frustration over a lot of hard work done on testing having to be thrown out the window at the last minute.

    That's how Magic can sometimes go, and I totally understand that you can't just rely on the metagame staying stagnant, nor should you whine and complain about how unfair it is that a strong new deck arises out of nowhere with very little time to test it.

    But.....I also think that you're underestimating the deck to a certain degree. I believe you when you say that you've spent ten hours playtesting it today; I've spent near the same amount of time on it in various builds over the last several days. It has more resilience to hate than all the other combo decks in the format. I've top eighted multiple PTQ's with various combo decks in various formats, and the only reason I bring this up is that I believe that I know how to play combo well enough to say that the situation isn't exactly how it appears.

    Should the deck appear in its current incarnation, before FS, it is quite beatable. Discard alone is a huge problem if you don't have brainstorm on the play. However, the consistency of not just the disciple variants but the Karmic/Kiki-Jiki version (which runs fewer dead cards allowing for greater disruption), gives me pause about whether or not it's healthy for the format as a whole to have to adapt to it.

    If this deck remains legal, how many Goblin decks do you expect to see in Columbus? Any? What about Thresh? Thresh, even with Meddling Mage, isn't a bad matchup- I played against a teammate yesterday, 16 games preboard, and won 11-5. Postboard, it went down a bit- 9-7. We're going to go into a tournament with dominant aggro being eliminated almost, and I believe, honestly, that those decks keep the format healthy.

    I respect what you're saying a great deal, but do you honestly think that Legacy is better for having a deck be determined as Tier 1, which even you seem to agree Hulk Flash will be, simply based on a piece of errata released a month before one of the only big Legacy tournaments of the year?

    Again, not an attack, but just curious about your views on this, as to how it affects the format as a whole, not just whether it's beatable.

  13. #273
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    My main problem with this deck showing up is the incredibly close proximity to the GP. This thing coming out of nowhere is probably going to invalidate a lot of potential strategies for the GP. People are likely going to have to 1) Pick a different deck or 2) Play Hulk Flash. Even if it isn't quite that bad, I think it's a little unfair to cause everyone to have to adapt to an abrubt metagame shift 2 weeks before the GP.
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  14. #274
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Duress and discard may slow Hulk Flash down, if you have a chance to cast it. However the deck has so much redundancy that it can easily topdeck into a win.

    Chalice for 1 is often too slow, unless you're on the play and can drop it on turn 1 with mana acceleration.

    Stifle is good, if you have a chance to cast it.

    I'll say it again... If a deck is likely to go off on turn 1, on the play, and can't even be stopped by a Force of Will, then it's broken.

    Even if the current version of the deck isn't "broken," it's pretty darn close. And the post-FS version most assuredly is busted, and it will get banned. GP Columbus is a once-every-couple-of-years event. Why fuck it up with some random uber-deck that has a shelf-life of 1 month and only came about as the unintended consequence of changing the ruling on some obscure rare card?
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  15. #275

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Flash pre-FS is actually beatable by two commonly played decks with one or two tweaks if you actually metagame them against it. Post-FS (Which means Post-GP) Flash is pretty freaking stupid even by normal combo standards and will probably need to be dealt with.
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  16. #276

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Lets look at how many decks that define Legacy are not fairly bad Post Future Sight; Solidarity - It might not be, but it seems flat out too slow, and with less countermagic; Goblins - Again, too slow, and unless it starts running rediculous SB hate, it's never going to win a match; Loam - Not enough disruption, too slow; Survival - Well, build dependent, but it seems like it doesn't have enough disruption right now.

    This just off the top of my head. I can't think of another time something so random has overnight become debatably become the best deck in the format before even getting a board together or having people tinker with it!
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  17. #277

    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    This is much more similar to Skullclamp ban then to Affinity ban...

    I did not post anymore in this thread because for me it's obvious that this won't last for a long time, they will probably ban it in legacy and creating a new combo deck in T1.

    Anyway, this is the decklist that I'm playing now:

    // Lands
    1 [R] Underground Sea
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    5 [CST] Island (3)

    // Creatures
    4 [SH] Shifting Wall
    3 [VI] Phyrexian Marauder
    4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
    4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
    1 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

    // Spells
    4 [TE] Lotus Petal
    4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
    4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
    4 [MM] Brainstorm
    4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
    4 [MI] Flash
    3 [AL] Force of Will
    1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
    2 [HL] Merchant Scroll

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 [HL] Merchant Scroll
    SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
    SB: 5 [CST] Island (3)
    SB: 4 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All

    (Sideboard just for put it)


    I would like to talk about cards that appear in other decklists and that I don't like a lot in this deck:

    1) Street Wraith: it's not tutorable with Pact, in 1x you see him too rarely, in 4x you will have mulligan problems

    2) Chrome Mox: We have 4x Petal which are card disadvantage too but I prefer them because they let you win a game if you drew 1 Disciple and 1 artifact creature.

    3) Shinzo, Clone: with 7x (or even 8x) artifact creatures we win if we draw a disciple.
    If we draw 2 we can:
    play them
    Brainstorm them
    tutor for Brainstorm
    (2 Disciples, 8 creatures and 1 Petal are 18 damage)



    I cut Gemstone Caverns because i thought that turn 1 wins were not needed, but now I'm thinking of trying a list with 4x Caverns, 4x ESG so that if people will start hating a lot this deck I'll win in response to their duress...

  18. #278
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    If we're talking about the Summoner's Pact-less list that would be viable for the GP, I don't think it's a metagame concern whatsoever. Both Belcher and TES are alot stronger than the GP legal Hulk Flash will be. Wordly Tutor does not begin to compare to Summoner's Pact. You cannot cast Mystical and Worldy to grab both combo pieces and expect to combo out the next turn... you have to use either Brainstorm or 2 draw steps to do so and it's incredibly inefficient. It's still a solid combo deck, but it is nowhere near the power level of TES or Belcher in their current states. For the GP, this deck won't be a concern. Will Goblins (or other similar aggro) lose to it? Yea. Will those decks also lose to TES and Belcher? Yea.

    If we are talking about post FS, then yes the deck becomes much more problematic and will be Tier 1. Why is this bad? Solidarity was Tier 1 for a very long time. Is it bad to have combo in the Tier 1 spot? Obviously Solidarity fell, whether it be from unpopularity due to whatever reasons, or bad performance. Decks keep evolving in this format because there are many dedicated players that keep innovating. So Thresh and Goblins are allowed to remain Tier 1 DTB's, but combo has to fall out? If this deck replaces Solidarity, so be it. Goblins will have to put a little extra design to deal with it, which it would have to do if 80% of the field was Belcher or TES anyway (like MD Chalice or Therapy or something) and Thresh will want to go ahead and put those Stifles in the maindeck. Is this bad? It's simply forcing decks to react to the metagame by tweaking design... if Goblins wasn't around, how many decks would be so concerned about deckbuilding constraints to answer the 1st turn Lackey? I'm not trying to compare Lackey to Flash, I'm simply pointing out how very strong deck designs affect the deckbuilding process of other decks. That is how magic works, as it always has. People ever since 2004 have been bitching relentlessly about how overpowered Goblins is/was and that it's rediculous that the deck stayed Tier 1 for so long. If it finally gets knocked down a notch or 2, what the hell is the problem now? People love to bitch and moan.

    You're probably right that the Disciple version is inferior to the Kiki version because the deck can run more disruption. I'm actually going to test that version a bit as I think it would be alot more potent. The problem with that though is that now it falls prey to Pithing Needle, which is going to be in everyone's board to answer Belcher, Goblins, so on and so forth anyway. Either way you're still facing difficulties against opposing disruption. And when I say 10+ hours of testing, I'm talking straight testing as if I was playing Diablo 2 like a digital crack fiend, not off and on when I get the time.

    The metagame was going good before this, I liked how things were headed. This shakes it up even more though. And I'm not just advocating this because I play Fish. I actually have a good Goblins matchup with my new maindeck... I've yet to lose a 2/3 set vs Goblins since I made the changes. The deck got raped when it ran 4 maindeck Duress and 2 Azorius Guildmage. Since then, the deck has evolved alot to being able to handle Goblins and other aggro. I beat WW/r Boros at The Meandeck Open and Goblins at GPT Rocky River with Fish. I'm advocating these changes simply because everyone is completely overreacting. I could care less if it's banned or left alone.

    So R/w Goblins drops the 3 maindeck StP and white for black and 3 Cabal Therapy with 4 Chalice and 3 Extirpate or whatever in the board. So what. It had a bad combo matchup any. So UWb Fish drops the extra Mother, Serra Avenger, and Umezawa's Jitte for the 3 maindeck Duress again. So what. How many decks are planning on packing Chalice nowadays? I know Affinity has been recently. I recall Hi-Val advocating a ton of people run Chalice.

    Gahhh...

    Duress and discard may slow Hulk Flash down, if you have a chance to cast it. However the deck has so much redundancy that it can easily topdeck into a win.
    If it's not topdecking into ammo or Disciples or unecessary mana sources and the opponent doesn't have a clock.

    Chalice for 1 is often too slow, unless you're on the play and can drop it on turn 1 with mana acceleration.
    There is a 50/50 chance Hulk goes first. If the opponent goes Tomb, Chalice, go, the pre-FS list is going to have a very rough time. If the opponent then goes turn 2 Island, Serendib Efreet, now they are on a clock... and Chalice will rock their socks. Post FS, the deck can go Chalice for 0. Now the opponent has 4 ways to find Hulk, cannot cast Petal/Chrome, and cannot use Negation while it's going off. Goodtimes.

    I won't disagree that the deck can go off first turn. However, if the deck does go first and goes off, they still don't go first next game. The deck isn't going to be going off 1st turn every single 2/3 game set. Turn 2 is impressive still, but still comparable to Belcher or TES in some respects. The pre FS list is not going to be that threatening, the post FS list will be alot more threatening.

    Hasn't both combo and aggro/control been on the rise for some time now anyway...?

  19. #279
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    If I'm forced to run MD answers to Goblin Lackey, whether it be StP or whatever, why should I not be forced to run answers like maindeck Stifle or Duress?
    If Lackey resolves, it does not immediately win the game. Even if it hits, it doesn't immediately win the game. Vial Goblins never, ever wins the game on turn 2, let alone turn 1 or turn 0. This comparison is simply not apt.

    Goblin Lackey has helped to define the format's overall power level, arguably without warping it too heavily. Flash's effect on the format will be much more severe. The Oracle text might as well be changed to read: "Remove attack phase from target format". The notion that aggro decks will somehow prove viable by maindecking hate is utterly ridiculous.

    Chalice slows the deck for a single turn, two at best. You're one of the few people playing a list with Chrome Moxen. Outside of that, Chalice at 0 hits Summoner's Pact and Lotus Petal, and can be easily removed by Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth. Glowrider does absolutely nothing to the combo, except for making Flash cost one extra. It also doesn't hit play until turn 2 at the earliest, which is incidentally the turn Flash will have already won the game 90% of the time. The same applies to Trinisphere. It buys you a single turn. True Believer can simply be bounced, just as Meddling Mage and Children of Korlis can. The only way an aggro deck can hope to beat Flash is to maindeck at least 8 hate cards and have an extremely fast clock to back it up, which is likely impossible.

    Even if this could somehow be achieved, the deck's viability against every other deck in the format would be severely compromised by running narrow, subpar hate cards in the maindeck. How good is Children of Korlis against Fish? Suicide? Seriously. Compounding this problem is that the hate that is good against Flash is relatively useless against other combo, and vice versa. Pyrostatic Pillar and Glowrider and Chalice are fantastic against Storm combo. Against Flash, they buy you a turn. Even if an aggro deck could achieve a barely positive matchup against Flash, it would lose to TES, Solidarity, and IGG.

    With all due respect, I think your viewpoint on this matter is somewhat biased. Firstly, you're testing a version of the combo which is more vulenrable to Chalice than most. Secondly, your pet deck is one of the few in the format with a positive matchup against Flash combo, and would benefit directly from its influence on the format, in that Flash obviates some of its worst matchups. I am not suggesting insidious plotting on your part - I just think you're disinclined to recongize the enormity of Flash's impact because its effect on you personally is less severe, if not outright beneficial.

  20. #280
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    Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    ...and if you use 4 of the 12 ways to grab Hulk, you're reducing 4 of your ways to grab Flash.
    Technically, you are only reducing one of your ways to grab flash, as it isn't like you won't draw another Mystical for the rest of the game.

    I agree to some extent that the combo isn't so powerful that it will completely take over the format, but because most of the decks right now aren't properly equipped to deal with it, Legacy seems like it will be stuck in a rut. If Hulk Flash starts seeing play in numbers, the metagame will take a huge shift, which probably wasn't needed now when many new decks were starting to come out of their shells, and like others have said, especially not right now when the metagame is approaching.

    Onto the actual deck, I think we can start brainstorming a sideboard now, unless people are still in too much shock to discuss anything but how awesome/not awesome the deck is? :S

    I can think of a couple possibilities off the top of my head:

    1. A Living Wish board. It can grab Boseiju, Hulk, or a utility creature to be flashed by Flash (*gasp*, even Minion of the Wastes, for an auto lose!) Although it might not be as fast as Pact and can't accelerate mana, having the option to play control-combo might be good. Also good for fetching a creature to get rid of Leyline of the Void. Boseiju seems awful to have more than a one-of in the maindeck because you do not want to increase the dead card count, but being able to fetch them out of the board may be better.

    2. Research bullets. Tacosnape's suggestion of Research seems really nice, and it can both fight against Extirpate and put some utility 2cc creatures/Clone into your deck without wasting any MD slots, and the Researches can be pitched to Force.

    3. A Transformational sideboard: Unless everyone is just keeping their secret techy sideboards to themselves, it seems like overall, the sideboard doesn't seem too necessary. Wasting SB space on confusing the shit out of your opponent might not be so bad, and the deck could either board out all the useless combo cards to morph into bad UG Threshold or whatever, or side out all the control and tutors to become a bad Ravager build without the proper landbase (this would only work if you are running Thopters, Walkers, and Spheres).

    Also, what do people think about a more black-tuned build with Shirei, Ornithopters, Ravagers, Disciples, Culling the Weak, and Cabal Therapy (which would be additional protection). It would make all the 'dead' MD slots less so, and allow you to win without relying on Flash.

    ...
    Edit: And two more things...

    Hanni: You say that this doesn't automatically win you the game when it resolves - how so? You put in Hulk, sac it, and win. Sure it requires 'two' cards, but Will needs your whole hand/yard to work with, and doesn't exactly win the game by itself, either. Also, even if Will was legal in Legacy, it can possibly be hated out. There is so little hate that can affect this it's not even funny.

    The other thing is that Serum Powder is a possibility when using Research. It may be too situational (removing combo pieces makes you rely on another card, and it adds more dead draws after the first turn begins), but makes the Gemstone Mine strategy even better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Wiggl3s
    Ya, your such an amazing player iOwn (should be changed to iPwn FTW) you surpass me with your amazing chalice 1 skillzorz

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