I like the deck, and actually think it will be good for the format. I, for one, am fully prepared to face it at Columbus, and will be *very* dissapointed at wizards if they emergency ban a two card combo that requires 11-12 useless cards in the maindeck.
Yes, the combo is fast, but the format has proven time and time again that it can deal with fast, consistant combo decks. This will be no different. Chalice at one shuts off practically all of the decks tutors (I'm talking Columbus legalities here), and it's not like Leyline of the Void sees no play whatsoever. The blue decks have stifles, meddling mages, and 4-7 free countermagic.
Decks such as gobblins don't really have a method of dealing, aside from a blue splash for stifle, but they cant really deal with the formats present combo decks anyway!
Viable decks will emerge that can deal with it, and I expect the field will balance out quite nicely, even if it isn't quite as crazy diverse as it is now.
Finally, if you guys are all buying the cards, then why on earth are you petitioning to get the deck emergency banned? That doesn't make sense any way you look at it.
Post-FS will be a very different story as the deck gets much, much better. Still, I think that should be an argument for the banning of the green pact, as opposed to the combo entirely.
In addition to mailing Forsythe, we should also send a mail to whoever is head of the DCI, since they're the ones who actually make bannings and whatnot, no?
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I'd like to point out that leyline of the void does stop the combo. Just food for thought when trying to beat it. Engineered plague does not however.
-Steve
Originally Posted by Pinder
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
A number of lists are packing maindeck Chain of Vapor, and more should go in the side as well...so you'd need more than one Leyline in play to put a definite stop to things.
If this deck forces a large number of Leylines of the Void into decks, the MD Chain would probably become Echoing Truth. Oh this deck is just so evil...
Referring to the art on Stasis:
I've to agree with Hanni, CalebD, and whoever thinks this deck to be overhyped.
Let's consider it, the format as it's now it's mostly composed of aggro decks (or at least decks with an aggro component). The control decks are relegated to board control (to answer aggro strategies) and aggro-control (to answer storm-combo). Then we have storm-combo decks resilient to control strategies, and aggro-prison decks.
We are clearly missing a good control deck.
While I believe Hulk Flash to be a good deck, and a serious threat to the format, I do so only because the metageme is not prepared to face it.
It's rising would probably adjust the format to an healtier metagame with the presence of true control decks.
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Then you clearly have not taken this deck for a spin, or read this thread clearly. This deck can win turn 1 fairly easily, turn 2 rather surprisingly easily, and should ALWAYS win by turn 3. And it's highly resilient, with 8 no-cost hard counters, and there is only ONE, just one, card that hinders it, besides the common enemy of combo (Meddling Mage). This deck is at the power level of T1. Not Legacy. While this deck is fun to use to stomp noobs, it will ruin the format; Nightmare's letter nailed it all right on the head.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
You think this deck will lead to a good control deck coming into the format? I haven't tested the post-FS build, but with all of their disruption, I can't imagine they couldn't play through most, if not all, of your 1-mana countermagic. Counterspell is 2-mana, you're dead at that point...
Perhaps you're right, but I doubt it. NTM, if control comes up, this deck can simply add misdirection into the fray. Granted, that's a lot of your starting hand, but that's what tutors are for. And don't forget, if you're running control, you have no clock. They can, in theory, wait until they draw the disruption they need and attempt to go off. Of course, in this situation, they have to deal with your 2-mana counters.
Wow, I wasn't going to say anything, but i'm VERY surprised. How can suddently a bunch of crap rares come together to form a pile of brokeness. Holy crap, in my opinion, this makes Legacy a dangerous format, man. Really. How much brokeness is there hidden in crap cards?
I wouldn't care so much had they done this after the GP. As it is, it really just messes up the metagame, giving people very little time to test against it/with it. With the already dramatic increase in good combo decks via Empty the Warrens, Legacy is quickly becoming Vintage-Light.
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FoW
Pact of Negation (Yikes!)
SSG -> REB/Pyroblast
Daze
Disrupting Shoal
Disrupt
Force Spike
Spell Snare
Mana Tithe
Misdirection (Flash targets a player?)
Commandeer?
I don't know, just throwing out ideas.
As it stands, the deck is still viable without pacts, which makes it a contender for GP. The pacts just make the deck absolutely retarded.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
Boseiju, Who Shelters All gets around Chalice for 2.
Personally I have been running two Boseiju's main deck and 2 sideboard because they make the deck even more silly versus control.
And Street Wraith cannot be searched for by Summoner's Pact, so don't run it as a 1 of.
I played against a post-FS list of this with a rediculous UB Landstill, and lost 13-7. Landstill had 4x FoW, 4x Stifle, 3x Trickbind, 4x Duress, and 2x Extirpate. If a combo deck can win a majority through all that, it should be nerfed.
This deck dosen't just kill Aggro and Board Control. It also kills all other Combo. Why play TES, etc. when this deck is better in virtually every way? It kills midgame decks like the Rock, Survival, etc. as well. I'm against anything that limits the amount of decks you can play.Let's consider it, the format as it's now it's mostly composed of aggro decks (or at least decks with an aggro component). The control decks are relegated to board control (to answer aggro strategies) and aggro-control (to answer storm-combo). Then we have storm-combo decks resilient to control strategies, and aggro-prison decks.
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I really would love to hear someone who thinks the deck is being over-hyped to defend their position in relation to the current banned list.
Just to give the opposition the best odds, let's hear some reasons why this combo deserves to be legal more than Yawgmoth's Will. Yawgmoth's Will can be hosed by counter-magic, discard, and GY hate, same as this combo. Like this combo, there's not much else that stops it. Will isn't unstoppable; it's format warping and reduces a meta-game to combo vs control, and frankly, the smart players will pick combo in such an enviroment.
I think the most basic misunderstanding some people have is that they consider this a two-card combo; this is not, functionally a two-card combo. This is a one card combo that requires another card to be in your hand. After FS, that other card will be an 8x, plus tutoring(Summoner's Pact is not a traditional tutor; it's Protean Hulk 5-8, and like Hulk, requires no mana investment).
This is what people didn't understand about Dragon either. It's not a two card combo. Trix is a two card combo; cast spell A, then cast spell B. This requires the resolution of a single card and 2 mana. Once properly tuned, it won't even fear control, because it can just add inevitability; I wouldn't be surprised to see final lists with a couple Worldly Tutors still in and Xentid Swarm MD. The deck doesn't need to win turn 0-2; it's dangerous because it CAN, consistently.
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I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Although the point has been made before, I believe it bears repeating: unbalanced tier one decks in any metagame are not cause for celebration.
There seems to be a component of players who don't care if the deck remains legal, since it is clearly beatable. This is true- the deck has strong weaknesses. However, what I would argue is that the problem in dealing with the deck is that there are very specific answers to the deck that are contained in a small percentage of the metagame at this point.
Whatever your viewpoint, it cannot be denied that the deck is strong, with a frightening degree of consistency potentially backed by countermagic. This is unhealthy. One of the main draws to Legacy, at least for me when I began in the format, was the wide variety of decks that were available to the top tiers. I chalked this up to the available card pool, and the fact that we were in a situation where there was a strong aggro archetype (Goblins), a strong aggro-control archetype (Thresh), and a healthy bit of room for combo strategies (Iggy, Solidarity, TES).
I don't think that it's Chicken Little to say that this deck poses a severe threat to maintaining that healthy metagame. Decks will be forced to deal with it using the very narrow spectrum of hate cards available, invalidating certain strategies, and while this has been a part of Magic in the past, I would also say that it isn't a part of Magic to be proud of. The Black Summer, The Combo Winter, the dominance of Ravager Affinity; all of these were problems that the Legacy metagame, at least to my knowledge, seemed to have avoided up to this point.
Look at the best hate cards- Stifle, Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void- these cards are present in certain archetypes and very few others. Forcing the metagame to adapt to deal with a consistent combo deck that is backed by counters severely hurts the ability of said meta to innovate- rather, one must play to deal with the dominant combo archetype.
Belcher is fair. TES is fair. Solidarity is fair. There are foils to all these decks in the current metagame that don't necessarily stifle the innovation of the format. While I have no doubt that the deck and be dealt with and hated out the question, at least to me, is why do we want to go through that? Legacy has a great meta and variety to it.
Do we really want a piece of errata on a forgotten rare to unbalance all that?
Right this moment, it may well be the best deck in the format. As I said before, it will be the most popular combo deck at Columbus. It's cheap, easy to play, and practically auto-wins against aggro. It will make its presence felt in the T8. That is, unless something is done about it.
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I say leave it until after GP Columbus. Let the numbers speak for themselves. If the entire top 8 (or tourney for that matter) is Flash/Flash Hate, then go ahead and put it on the Type 1 restricted list with the wording left as is.
Well even if it doesn't compose the entire top 8 it could still be a strong force, and that's without the 8 Pacts that make the deck even more of a house. Also, wtf @ Type 1 restricted list? What does that have to do with Legacy?
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I'm against that. It's incredibly obvious that the deck is close to broken right now, and will definitely be utterly busted with FS. Why fuck up the GP metagame with a deck that just became viable last week and will inevitably be banned a couple weeks after the GP?
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