[Deck] The Flash/Hulk Killer

[Rood]

Decklist:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Island

4x FoW
4x Disrupt
4x Daze
4x Force Spike
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Standstill
4x Duress
4x Dark Confidant
4x Meddling Mage
4x Stifle

SB:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Extract
3x Trickbind

K so basically I hate the Flash/Hulk combo so much I made a deck with the sole purpose of beating this deck. If you hate this combo as much as I do, please I encourage you to run this deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Spell Snare.

[outsideangel]

Nice lack of a relevant clock.

Giving the deck a hundred turns to build up disruption and buisness to a critical mass and then just overwhelm you is not a good game plan. Think Landstill vs. Solidarity.

Also, I'm sure you realize this, but someone has to say it: that deck rolls over an dies to anything else, like, say, Goblins. Just sayin'.

[Rood]

Nice lack of a relevant clock.

Giving the deck a hundred turns to build up disruption and buisness to a critical mass and then just overwhelm you is not a good game plan. Think Landstill vs. Solidarity.

Also, I'm sure you realize this, but someone has to say it: that deck rolls over an dies to anything else, like, say, Goblins. Just sayin'.

Yes i am fully aware it rolls to anything else...the purpose of the deck is to beat this combo if you are mad to losing to it...lol. Also a stable attack with MM and Factory is plenty fast you must remember they will have to bounce your mage...which won't happen.

PS: I hate Hulk/Flash.

[outsideangel]

Yes i am fully aware it rolls to anything else...the purpose of the deck is to beat this combo if you are mad to losing to it...lol. Also a stable attack with MM and Factory is plenty fast you must remember they will have to bounce your mage...which won't happen.

PS: I hate Hulk/Flash.

This is a bad course of action.

If you actually feel strongly about this combo, then take the time you spent throwing that decklist together and invest it in writing to Aaron Forsythe and anyone else at Wizards and the DCI who will listen, asking them to take action ASAP. Then go to other message boards and rally support and get other people to write in and ask the same.

When the problem is the deck warping the metagame, the solution is not to warp the metagame to beat the deck. That's a lot like fucking for virginity.

And what if your hate deck does work, anyway? If everyone picks up your hate deck and drives Hulk Flash out of contention, then what? As soon as people put the hate deck down, Hulk can just bust back in. Additionally, you will have kept Hulk decks from showing any success, which will only obscure the problem because then people will go "Oh, well it didn't win a lot, so it can't be that bad, right?" when in fact it is negatively affecting the metagame without even putting up results by forcing everyone to play the hate deck.

Finally, making a list that's completely unviable in a broad metagame is bad because that list really won't accomplish anything unless you only see Hulk all day, which isn't going to happen immediately, I don't think. You get knocked out of contention by the scrubby guy playing Zoo, and it doesn't matter how much you hate Hulk because you'll never see it at the top tables. Also the deck actually has to beat Hulk, which that list very well might not.

[Rood]

This is a bad course of action.

If you actually feel strongly about this combo, then take the time you spent throwing that decklist together and invest it in writing to Aaron Forsythe and anyone else at Wizards and the DCI who will listen, asking them to take action ASAP. Then go to other message boards and rally support and get other people to write in and ask the same.

When the problem is the deck warping the metagame, the solution is not to warp the metagame to beat the deck. That's a lot like fucking for virginity.

And what if your hate deck does work, anyway? If everyone picks up your hate deck and drives Hulk Flash out of contention, then what? As soon as people put the hate deck down, Hulk can just bust back in. Additionally, you will have kept Hulk decks from showing any success, which will only obscure the problem because then people will go "Oh, well it didn't win a lot, so it can't be that bad, right?" when in fact it is negatively affecting the metagame without even putting up results by forcing everyone to play the hate deck.

Finally, making a list that's completely unviable in a broad metagame is bad because that list really won't accomplish anything unless you only see Hulk all day, which isn't going to happen immediately, I don't think. You get knocked out of contention by the scrubby guy playing Zoo, and it doesn't matter how much you hate Hulk because you'll never see it at the top tables. Also the deck actually has to beat Hulk, which that list very well might not.

I am simple offering a decklist to beat this deck...as of now no other decks that I am aware of even have a slightly good matchup against this deck. If they don't ban this combo soon the format will be warped so you will be forced to run decklists like this...sad but true that Wizards can sometimes make mistakes but it happens.

As of now, no deck besides some Fish even really have a sleight chance of beating this combo...I am simple making a different proposition to maybe prepare ourselves to battle this combo before it gets out of hand.

[yiff]

I'll play against your deck and still win. :)

[noobslayer]

Play UGw thresh with 4 MD Daze, 4 Meddling Mage, and 2-3 MD Stifle. I think that is the closest thing to a hate deck that can apply pressure. For god sakes, you get Tarmogoyf which is a huge boon to the deck.

[scrumdogg]

Why Extract in the SB as opposed to Extirpate? Extract can't remove enough relevant material in the face of their tutors games 2 & 3 (although it could remove the 1x bounce-spell-of-choice MD. Not that it matters, as you will be in the 0-4 bracket unless you do actually play Hulk Flash or 6 year olds all day...and they both still have a chance to beat this deck....

[Mirrislegend]

Well, going with Roodmistah's original intent of making a deck that can consistently shut down Hulk Flash, I think we can start to compile the necessary MD cards that arent overly narrow (ie Leyline of the Void).

Duress
Cabal Therapy
Force Spike/Daze
Force of Will
Stifle
Disrupt

Runner's up include Spell Snare (for narrow-ness) and Hymn to Tourach (for costing 2).

Of these 6 (or 8) ways to attack hulk Flash, you only need about 4. I think the most elegant and versatile package from this list would be 4 Duress, 4 FoW, 4 Stifle, and then some combination of Disrupt and Hymn (if you expect a creature-heavy meta, replace the Disrupts into Force Spikes and Dazes). This leaves many slots in your deck in which you build your clock, your drawing/consistency, and your answers to other decks. Looks like U/B Fish may be making a comeback.

4 Duress
4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
? Hymn to Tourach
? Umezawa's Jitte
? Disrupt
? [Removal]

4 Dark Confidant
? Hypnotic Specter
4 Sarcomancy
2 Rotting Giant
4 Flying Men

? [Lands]

[barron]

So is this deck currently legal? Did they errata or are they waiting until june first?

[BreathWeapon]

Pre-FS, Chalice of the Void at one or Stifle is enough, post-FS, I'm not certain, but Chalice of the Void at zero is HUGE against the pacts.

[emidln]

It seems that mox, land, true believer would be pretty good from a fishy-type deck.

[Hanni]

Hulk Flash killer?

Hulk Smash

Some basic cards

4 Duress
4 Force Spike
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell


That should be plenty enough answers maindeck and you probably don't need all of them.

From there, you want some draw.

Brainstorm
Serum Visions
Fact or Fiction
Cunning Wish
Predict

Those are just a few card draw options. Personally, I'd probably only use the first three. A 4/4/3 or 4/3/3 split seems fine.

Unless you want a deck that just beats Hulk Flash and loses to everything else, you're probably going to want some form of creature removal.

Ghastly Demise
Vendetta
Innocent Blood
Diabolic Edict

I'd probably run Innocent Blood and maybe something else, with the rest of my creature hate in the sideboard.

Then, of course, you want the kill...

3 Pyschatog

Now, Tog on his own will be more than enough to deal with Hulk Flash, but you need to consider other matchups. That means you're going to need either a Wonder or Cunning Wish to grab Berserk. Personally, I don't think that Cunning Wish really offers alot. Other than Berserk, there doesn't seem alot of cards that you'd really want to Wish for, especially when Wish itself is 3 mana. I may be wrong. However, without Berserk the deck gets to stay U/B and keep a more stable manabase, for whatever that's worth.

1 Wonder

If the deck runs a 4/4 or 4/3 split on cantrip (Brainstorm/Visions), the land count really doesn't need to be very high... unless you want to run Wastelands. I'm not sure if Wastelands are really necessary for the deck, since the deck does want a higher curve than decks like Fish to cast stuff like Psychatog and Fact or Fiction... or to simply hold open Counterspell mana while casting something like Serum Visions. 20 lands should be enough I think and I wouldn't run more than 21 unless I planned on running Wasteland.

Hulk Smasher

Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island
3 Swamp

Creatures (4)
3 Psychatog
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
3 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Duress
4 Innocent Blood
2 Damnation

That looks pretty solid to me. The lone 1-of on wonder isn't tutorable for and may never get a chance to be used but it at least gives the deck an out to blockers rather than brute force... the 4/4/3 draw split should be enough to grab it most of the time and the Tog itself can discard it.

I think this style of deck works perfect against Hulk Flash because it not only stops their combo from going off, it keeps it stopped. Once it's ready, it simply goes off with it's own combo with a lethal Tog.

I actualled royally raped a Hulk Flash deck with this today on MWS. Game 1 I completely rolled his one attempt to go off. In game 2, he scooped after his 3rd Flash went to the graveyard. Mmmmm....

EDIT: I made some changes to the deck.

-1 Wonder
-2 Ghastly Demise
+1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
+2 Damnation

[CalebD]

Unless you want a deck that just beats Hulk Flash and loses to everything else, you're probably going to want some form of creature removal.

Ghastly Demise
Vendetta
Innocent Blood
Diabolic Edict

I'd probably run Innocent Blood and maybe something else, with the rest of my creature hate in the sideboard.

Vendetta hits the creature-kill version of flash that runs the jikki combo, and -1 life to hit the turn one lackey isn't bad at all. Then -2 life to kill a piledriver or a warcheif definately seems worth it, as is hitting unthreshed werebears. I'd think it would work well in conjunction with innocent blood as well.

[DrJones]

Vendetta hits the creature-kill version of flash that runs the jikki combo, and -1 life to hit the turn one lackey isn't bad at all. Then -2 life to kill a piledriver or a warcheif definately seems worth it, as is hitting unthreshed werebears. I'd think it would work well in conjunction with innocent blood as well.

After playtesting these cards extensively for years, I finally concluded that:

Vendetta << Snuff Out < Contagion

Though in some decks, Snuff Out beats contagion.

[nupert]

If you are running white, what about Aven Mindcensor? It works as additional Meddling Mages for 2w with flash (the ability) against Flash (the card) but also hits tutors and Fetchlands as well. To me, it seems not too bad. Backed up with disruption it could be a solid inclusion. It could be fun to play it with Flash on the stack when they've used a Pact.

[Zilla]

Aven Mindcensor is a) too slow to matter, and b) not very good in a deck with 8 fetchlands.

Whomever said Extirpate was strong was correct; in conjunction with FoW/Daze/Stifle/Duress, it is the single most consistent way to beat the combo outright.

In the colors you're working with, another as of yet unmentioned card is Shadow of Doubt, which also serves to stop the combo cold. It's also not dead against any deck packing fetchlands, Infernal Tutors, Goblin Matrons, Survival, etc.

[frogboy]

It's also not dead

fixed. (card cantrips, for those unaware)

[Hanni]

For my Tog list, I dropped 4 Force Spike for 4 Extirpate MD. I put 4 Leyline in the SB for Tog mirrors and Hulk Flash.

As for what I think would probably be the most realistic format deck after Future Sight, without building completely to hate out Hulk Flash and ignoring everything else that might exist in the meta:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (17)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard (15)
4 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Winter Orb
3 Umezawa's Jitte

The other decks on this thread, with bad cards like Children of Korlis, are going to completely suck against any of the viable decks that will evolve to handle Hulk. The myriad of already existing aggro/control variants, the new variations of control that will pop up (like Tog), and everything else.