I really dislike returns, I usually go for goblins with wish. This is really a safer move in the current meta for game ones because your not giving your opponent a second chance at Mulliganing into a force. Game two and three if your opponent mulligans a lot you probably are going to be up against a force or mindbreak trap, so returns isn't going to resolve if you don't have a pyroblast. My recommendation for postboard against blue is to mulligan into empty the warrens then draw the hand that has your acceleration. This really guarantees that you'll have a storm win. If they counter some of your rituals you'll just get more storm.
Also on the number of goblins, unless your playing against storm or some aggro light (intuition elves probably falls into this category) deck you need at least 12 goblins turn 1 and 16 turn 2-3 to guarantee a win.
Oook, let's say that after SI, Belcher has the most explosives T1 hands.
A testing note: How good is Gitaxian Probe in this deck. It provides us unvaluable infrmation to shape our game plan.
Ingot chewer has been considered due to you can evoke it thought chalice with just (R). Almost never it sees play as "permanent creature".
@ Beatusnox:
Ok, understood.
@ 2sided3angle:
If by "how can you properly cast it" you're asking about mana production necessary for it, the answer is Manamorphose.
But if you were asking about "tech mastering", then I think Final Fortune answered it (I had a doubt on it to) - although, as John Cox pointed, it can be risky or ineffective against blue decks.
@ John Cox:
By stating that it would be required a greater number of goblins (i.e., 12 instead of 10) from storm count, I assume that this would be for preventing some random blocks that could obstruct you from winning (or could gain the opponent a little more turns, what could get the same result), is that right?
But if you had an initial hand that could go only for 10 goblins, would you not keep it?
@ Vacrix:
Never heard of anyone using Recross the Paths, but as a first thought it doesn't appear to be superior to Land Grant, if the plan would be to substitue it.
@ GoldenCid:
Hmmm, thanks. I did not think that Chewer could be a resource to avoid Chalices...
The list that took gencon by storm a year or two back (came first or second) had 4 Empty, and 4 Belchers, with cantrips main in place of the Burning wishes. Burning wish is by no means holy.
That really depends on what the hand needs to be able to make more goblins. Ten is a bad number because of the combat math. If they went first and played a nacatl, then they get the chance to have two creatures out when I attack the first time. I'll deal 8 damage and have 8 goblins left, the next turn they could play a goyf + another creature or burn spell and I'll swing with 3-4 less goblins, doing 4-5 damage total. The next swing may even not connect.
Twelve is a safe number because adding the medium case scenario up, I'll do exactly 20 damage against zoo/goblins/sligh/whatever.
If the hand just needs a burning wish to put out double warrens, or a drawing a mana source would let me cast a cantrip instead of imprinting it on chrome mox, I'll probably wait a turn and go for 16 goblins on turn 2-3. If its my first seven and it can only produce 10 goblins, I would defiantly mull(The exception being I'm playing against blue and the hand has a pyroblast in it). The weird thing is a blue opponent isn't going to have 3 creatures out on turn 2 or 3 so 10 goblins is fine there, but against an aggro deck 10 isn't enough.
Not only the Storm match, just for when you can be outraced. Even then I still prefer Goblins in those situations(not as much as belcher but I more than returns), Diminishing returns can be very random at getting you what you need and help your opponent.
Especially with access to now 12 cyclers (now including Gitixian Probe). You could even play Summoner's Pacts instead of Land Grants and still have 20 IMS. All you need is 6 mana, Recross the Paths, and a cycler to win. Imagine stacking the deck like:
Manamorphose into 2U:
Meditate --> LED, LED, LED, Gitixian Probe
Play out LED x3, Probe, break LED's in response --> Belcher, play and activate. Getting to 6 isn't that hard for Belcher.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Recross the Paths is to slow. The point of Land Grant is that it is free and it nets mana. So +1 storm and +1 mana. It is dead in multipules, it makes a good Chrome Mox target.
I have been running Serum Powder in my list for about 2 yeards now and love it. It makes mulligan choices really easy although they were not very hard to begin with. I would run no more than 3 because it is a dead draw on any turn.
@Varix: I remember trying out Recross earlier in this thread. Never tested it properly since Belcher isn't a fun deck to play at the end of the day (also: nightmare to play on MWS).
Link
There's actually a lot more nifty things you can do with recross than you've stated thus far; for an instance you have an excellent chance of getting the Recross back after playing it for Taiga, meaning that you can conceivably go off without Land Grant with an additional 2 mana (and having access to Land Grant is probably more important than the extra Recross kills anyhow). Also you only need 2 cyclers or 1 cycler and 3 mana to go off immediatly after Recross (since 1 cycler can be substituted for LED at will), and you can stack these on top of the deck to win 1/2 turns irregardless.
EDIT: Come think of it, one should probably add Tendrils to the SB since BW -> Tendrils is only 6 mana as opposed to Belcher -> Activate's 7. Gives some more leeway in the more convoluted piles.
Recross the Paths shouldn't EVER be compared with Land Grant. Land Grant is effectively a 0cc IMS while Recross the Paths is a 3cc business spell. In regards to cutting Land Grant, that was a different point entirely, opting to replace Land Grant with Summoner's Pact, which is a 0cc IMS that is effectively Pact --> ESG --> G. I don't know if that is good or not, I'm going to my local store on friday to pick up the pieces to test this out, but the idea is that if you can cut Land Grants and the Taiga, then you still have 20 IMS's and thats enough to get the combo started because you will see one every 3 cards or so.
Recross the Paths, was suggested by Infinitum on page 41. Honestly I think this is what Belcher ought to evolve into anyway because its been a HUR-DURR deck for far too long.
In the near future, I'll be testing that list with these changes:
-4 Street Wraith
-4 Land Grant
-1 Taiga
+4 Summoner's Pact
+4 Gitixian Probe
+1 Wild Cantor
I'm hoping that 20 IMS is enough. I really want to play a landless list because it makes Recross the Paths that much better. Doomsday in green makes me pretty excited.
Now, I've been thinking we might run into a play like:
Hand:
Elvish Spirit Guide, Summoner's Pact, Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Manamorphose, Recross the Paths
This would be a pass the turn pile, likely 2nd turn win if we weren't running Ideas Unbound:
Turn 1:
SSG, ESG, Pact-->ESG, [RGG], Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual [RRRGG], Recross the Paths [RR]
Library:
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Probe
Meditate
Seething Song
Seething Song
LED
Charbelcher
Manamorphose --> UU, draw Ideas Unbound, play it, draw LED x2, Probe, play LED x2, play Probe, break LED x2 in response for UUURRR, drawing Meditate, play Meditate with RRR floating, draw Seething Song, x2, LED, and Charbelcher, play Seething Song x2 for RRRRRRRRR, play LED, play Charbelcher, and activate for the kill
In short, we might want to include Ideas Unbound for Recross piles.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Actually, you don't need to run Meditate main if you run Ideas Unbound - consider this pile:
Or more convoluted:Ideas Unbound
-
LED
LED
Probe
-
Cantrip
Cantrip
Cantrip
Cantrip
Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony
Meditate piles do have the luxury of playing an extra Seething Song however, which together with having surplus mana directly after the Infernal Contract means that they can play a second Burning Wish for Reverent Silence (Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree/Duress should you start with a surplus mana in the pool) should they need to.Ideas Unbound
-
LED
LED
Probe
-
Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract
-
LED
LED
(Blank - You have an extra mana to work with here postside should you need to remove whatever)
Probe
-
Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony
More importantly Meditate is actually playable by itself once in a blue moon, completely circumvents Ethersworn Canonist and doesn't require you to pay 8+ life when going off. Since either one can be paid for by cracking a LED in response to RtP (or by drawing into LED naturally should you cast RtP with 2 cantrips on hand) it's a tossup which one is better imo.
Oh, and @that list: I'd strongly consider running the full 12 free cantrips even if it meant going down to 10 win conditions (4xBelcher 4xRtP 2xBW). The 3 RtP in that list is a throwback to the fact that it is more of a liability prior to getting the Taiga, but with no lands you cannot really afford the pass turn piles imo (especially as you run Pact).
I'd say that with 4 Gitixian Probe and 4 Manamorphose, you might even be able to play Meditate/Ideas Unbound if its in your opener simply because you have 4 maindeck color fixers and 4 blue cards to imprint on Chrome Mox.
Also, via Summoner's Pact --> Wild Cantor is another method of getting U.
I like the Ideas Unbound piles. UU is easy when you can just put Manamorphose on top. The question now is Meditate vs. Ideas Unbound, or run both?
Well... you can't use Pact in hands when you are passing the turn. Then again, you won't always have Pact. Its doesn't function the same way it does in Pact SI, a draw dependent deck. In Belcher, you are merely judging your opening 7 to see if it can win that turn. Unfortunately you can't use Pacts on the turn you go off or you wind up shuffling away the pile.
I'm not sure that you want 12 cyclers. Street Wraith can't even be used in your Cantrip, Cantrip, Cantrip, etc. pile because it doesn't count as a spell. Also, its much harder to tell whether or not you can keep your opening hand if its full of cyclers. Imagine you have a hand of 5 cyclers, ESG, SSG. Do you keep this? Its hard to tell what will come of it.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
It's not as much the double U as the fact that there are very few situations in which you'd want to cast Ideas outside of Recross. At least Meditate is a semi-decent topdeck if your first attempt got countered somehow.
Having a lot of cantrips in a starting hand is somewhat forgiving in this deck since we only really play mana and win conditions, and having access to them is crucial to make RtP work - remember that you can play Paths without any mana floating whatsoever as long as you have at least 2 free cantrips to enable LED for you.
I think that this is a good idea for a new version of the deck.
But...
advantages:
You are not playing land grant 2-3-4+taiga, so you will not reveal any kind of land/hand anymore. Your chrome moxes will have new targets in additionals Recross the paths.
You become fully led-dependant. The deck can abuse this card very well
disadvantages of the "cantripfull":
mulliganing issues(swraith ver): if you keep a hand full of cantrips, you cannot know what you're going to draw with those. Manamorphose/Gitaxian are already "problems" the same way.
You become fully pithing-needle-able. Like the old "2lands belcher" a needle is a kind of a pain in the "back".
You don't get maindeck anti-hate: no burning wish.
"disadvantages of the hybrid":
You become fully led-dependant. You might not be able to set up a good pile with the cards you are left in the deck with.
I don't think we can build a list with recross the paths without at least 10-12 cantrips, or you cannot draw into your win till the turn after casting it.
Summoner's pact is a good card. But only if you are going to win via-belcher, of course. I guess you can only play summoner with a list fully imprinted on winning this way.
p.s. a mono-ideas unbound i think it is necessary on these builds, but it is another dead card in the starting hand(kind of) and it is off-color(sometimes i have trouble casting my xantid swarm/tinder wall in classic lists...)
my 2 cents
Anyhow, here's the list that I'll test out for the time being. The exact ratio of Recross to Wish maindecked is of course debatable. We shall see.
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elven Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Street Wraith
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Recross the Paths
2 Burning Wish
1 Ideas Unbound
Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Chain Lightning
1 Cabal Therapy
-
1 Meditate
2 Seething Song
1 Infernal Contract
1 Burning Wish
The second half of the SB looks weird, but essentially allows me to board in Meditate>Ideas, BW>Recross and Songs>Rituals and utilize more specialized piles versus whatever hate they brought in.
I really think Recross will be most effective if you are playing with something that allows you to get rid of Land Grant. If not Summoner's Pact then perhaps Mox Opal?
If you still want to play Land Grant, them maybe try playing Summoner's Pact alongside it with Dryad Arbor and Culling the Weak, much like PSI does. That would at the very least allow for the Recross piles to work because you would then have 8 ways to fetch out your land rather than just 4.
I have a feeling that most of the time Recross is in your hand without Land Grant its going to be a psuedo-busines spell rather than a surefire kill. Finding a way to configure a landless list or list with LG + Pact is going to set Recross over the top. Either way though, I look forward to reading about its progress. I'm going to be testing a list myself in an Pact SI variant and we can compare notes.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Can you break Lion's Eye Diamond for mana, and then use the mana to cast a spell before discarding your hand?
i.e break LED to cast Cruel Bargain or Infernal Contract from your hand.
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