Wizards hinted that things were going to be changing in Legacy after this GP. Clearly it is now a topic in the forefront. So, what are you hoping to see done? Let's hope that Wizards has been looking more closely at the format and what some of its veterans have to say than they were recently concerning Flash. Try to refrain from making this another "this should be unbanned" topic. I just want to know what cards should be in the crosshairs and under what conditions.
The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:
1. Flash scrubs out - you are all idiots (snicker)
2. Flash does reasonably well, but is hated out effectively
3. Flash dominates
If 1 is true, what will be the likely changes to the B+R? Same as some have been clamoring for? Land Tax, Mind Over Matter, etc. in - maybe Vial out?
If 2 is true, I friggin' quit Legacy because I hate Vintage. But what will happen to the B+R? I suppose you can count out Vampiric Tutor for starters.
If 3 is true, OK, Flash out. Maybe Hulk as well. But what comes in? I mean, we will be getting an entirely new format - again?
The outcome of each of your scenarios:
1) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.
2) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.
3) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.
I collect German and miscut cards. Please PM if you have.
I think it is extremely important that we use this opportunity to convince the DCI to re-asses their banned list. Many cards on it are simply not that powerful (Replenish, Land Tax, Mind over Matter) and should be unrestricted. But they never will be without imput because they have no reason to doubt their own conclusions that these cards are above the powerlevel of the format.
Is there a place on the internet where the DCI can hear oppinions about the B&R lists or do they simply come up with it themselves?
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.Originally Posted by Krieger
While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
@HG, that's a really good point. I mean, I was hoping that they would do just that, and I suppose that is the point of the thread in the first place. But I will bet there is nothing better than forums.
1) Flash scrubs out: Well, IMO, it would be better to overreact and find it was ok after all, than to think it's ok and then be bit over the head with it. WotC will not unban anything because they are speaking ex cathedra and cannot be wrong, even though Flash is easily more powerful then several of the cards on the banned list.
2) See Bender's Theme Park quote from Futurama.
3) See Bender's Theme Park quote from Futurama.
I wish to point out that they specifically stated that they'll reassess the B&R list for Eternal formats come June 1st (they haven't had the resources to do so previously, or so they told), so Flash getting the axe isn't likely the only result. I think you folk are giving them too little credit; they did separate the banned and restricted lists for Vintage and Legacy after all and they're holding GPs too. Their policies are unfortunate, but it's true that this course of action is the one that follows the policies. They simply haven't given themselves means to act otherwise. Memory Jar was an exception that occured because all formats sucked at the moment. This isn't such a case, so we'll have to wait until June 1st, but rest assured that the banning will happen, and maybe even some other changes. Have faith.
Why does flash have to get banned to fix this problem? It seems to me that protean hulk is the real problem here. Flashing in gamekeepers and rectors just doesn't seem that bad. But, if I'm wrong, an innocent card would be banned and our format would remain wrecked.
It is arguable that Flash is stronger than many of the cards currently on the Banned list. The only reason Hulk is broken is because of it's interaction with Flash. Previous to the un-errata, Hulk wasn't that good. So you have several options now.
Option 1: Ban neither
This is clearly unacceptable for many obvious reasons which I will not go into.
Option 2: Ban Flash only
This would kill Hulk Flash. Yes, there are other cards that can be used to get Hulk into play and send it to the grave, but none of them are as strong as Flash.
Option 3: Ban Hulk only.
This would also kill Hulk Flash. However, Flash would then be used in other decks that need to get a creature into play and then kill it. This banning would be bad for two reasons.
Reason A: Design Limitations.
WotC is now forced to design all come into play effects and goes to graveyard effects with Flash in mind.
Reason B: Legacy gets shafted.
WotC designs as normal, and Legacy receives cards that gives Flash new targets to abuse.
Option 4: Ban both.
Given WotC's handling of Affinity in old Standard, this may be the route they take. While this is overkill, it is also the safest route.
Last edited by Cabal_chan; 05-17-2007 at 04:32 PM. Reason: Clean up.
Flashing in Gamekeeper at the end of the 1st or 2nd turn is a fairly easy to assemble win condition. The bigger problem is having Flash in existence would either put massive design constraints on the DCI or have the formant wrecked again.
[3. LocalDefense]: English is under attack!
If pervious actions of the DCI are any tell tale both will get the axe. Dragon + Bazaar for example; they may be conservative when deciding to ban something, but rarely take chances once they've committed.
Standard:
All 6 artifact lands, Ravager, Vial, Disciple.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Flash created the problem, so removing Flash removes the problem. It's not like they'd ever print a card like Flash again anyways as its present functionality is simply a result of poor wording rather than intent. Nobody was winning anything with Protean Hulk before Flash, it's not likely that anyone will be winning anything with it afterwards, and even if they will, that won't be as slick and smooth a package as it is presently. It'd either take more cards to pull off (massive slowdown and inconsistency), cost more mana (Solidarity/Aluren>>>it) or other issues. The short version of it, they might very well 'break' flash again with leaves play-abilities (or some cards that enable the present leaves play abilities to be too broken at 1U, if they aren't already), while there's no danger of them ever breaking Protean Hulk again as they've already shied away from such cards since Urza's or so, and the kind of effects that make Hulk broken are merely typos. So, there's no other rational course of action than to ban Flash. They banned Bazaar because it was a money-card and totally broken, they banned Dragon because they feared the Dragon/Animate combo, not because of Dragon the Deck. A poor analogy.
Yes Flash would impose design constraints on Wizards but lets be realistic there are currently a total of 3 creatures that have game breaking or close to game breaking capabilities; Protean Hulk, Academy Rector, Gamekeeper. Of those 3 only hulk is truly degenerate with flash both rector and gamekeeper are good(maybe gamekeeper more so) but it's not the surefire win that Hulk is assuming you put it into the Salvagers shell you would have to hit a therapy every time gamekeeper hits another gamekeeper to actually find a salvager then you have to hit a Lion's eye(not hard I'll give you that) then you have to have 2 mana to actually start the infinite mana, you also need to have milled a spellbomb or whatever is used. Yes it could be good but it's not as synergistic with pacts as the hulk is so it doesn't gain as much from FS since theirs a chance you'll fail to mill the right cards and you can’t go off on upkeep because you need to cast artifacts. Rector on the other hand is relatively tame in Legacy by itself there is no bargain and the best you can get is maybe Null Profusion (maybe there’s something I missed feel free to give a better option).
Let Flash stay the format needs some innovation. just ban the Hulk.
I disagree; Dragon without Bazaar would have been horrible.
Buried Alive + Animate Dead + Dragon
Is quite similar in power level to:
Cabal Therapy + Show and Tell + Hulk
And if anything the Hulk three card (sans Flash) combo is better, costing only 4 mana and disrupting your opponent in the process. And yet....it has been legal since the printing of Hulk and no one has played it. Banning Dragon, Replenish, and Land Tax were over reactions to the problem. At the time only Replenish was being used in a deck (as a 2 of in Enchantress). I see a pattern in the DCI's actions that suggest the banning of both. However it has been a while since the last major adjustment to the B&R list, so their policies may have changed.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Why exactly are people making a case that Protean Hulk is the overpowered card when no Hulk-based deck had ever even made a tournament showing in the vast expanse of time available for it to do so prior to the errata on Flash? Protean Hulk was a $.50 scrub rare. It will return to being so when Flash is banned.
No, because Dragon doesn't have to be inyour hand to play Buried Alive. Dragon's a two card combo, one card being a graveyard enabler and the other being AD/Necromancy. Hulk just isn't a very good card.
-Slay
OH SHIT THERES A HORSE IN THE HOSPITAL
Team Slay and Lego: Slay your a tool and your glasses are almost as GAY as your retarded snitch of a boyfriend Lego. Lego focus on your own game you are a fucking clown and should have heard the rediculous amount of people saying how much of a dick you were being and what kind of a fool you are. I laugh at you two. Seriously you both need attitude adjustments. I have never encountered a larger pair of pussy bitches in my whole life.
I personally am advocating hulk being banned (at least currently) instead of flash not because hulk is the culprit in the combo. Rather, I think it's (again, currently) good to have a flash combo deck in Legacy, since combining it with gamekeeper and rector is not nearly as degenerate as with hulk, but still competitive.
The way to break up the combo while still leaving new, interesting decks in the format after the erratum would be to ban hulk and not flash. However, I can certainly understand the argument that a new creature to abuse with flash will inevitably come along and warrant the banning of flash all over again.
People are forgetting this isn't 2005.
Dragon is a 3 card combo.
Dragon + Animate Dead + Something to use all that infinite mana on, to you know, actually win.
It's a 2 card combo if all you want is a draw.
Bazaar made Dragon effectively a 1-2 card combo, depending on your perspective.
This is why Entomb-Dragon wasn't even that hot. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't format breaking.
Also, if it gets snuffed you lose all your lands. So another thing to consider when comparing apples to grapples.
EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure I could make a crazy Flash deck if they only banned Hulk.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
I'm not claiming, the idea of banning the Dragon was necessarily correct, but I can easily follow the train of thought behind it; Dragon is the card that actually makes the combo possible, there're billions of methods of putting cards to graveyard and multiples (well, two to be exact, but that's more than there're Dragons or Flashes) to create a reanimation loop, but only one that actually makes the deck operate, so the obvious card to hit is that one. I don't think Bazaar's banning was even linked to Dragon, or that they gave Dragon's powerlevel a second thought. I think Bazaar was simply banned to remove the 'three unrestricted' (Workship, Drain and Bazaar) from the format, while Dragon was removed to kill the actual combo. There's no such case here, so the likely scenario is Flash getting the axe. And I'd prefer it that way instead of getting every future creature with a good leaves play-ability axed.
Assuming we go with the aforementioned combo with Buried Alive, it is still only a 2 card combo (Buried Alive + Animate) because you get something such as Ambassador Laquatus or Sliver Queen to channel the infinate mana.Dragon is a 3 card combo.
Dragon + Animate Dead + Something to use all that infinite mana on, to you know, actually win.
Not that it's really important of anything, but just sayin.
I personally wouldn't want to see some idiot Flash in Academy Rector and combo off that way. Flash as is is pretty degenerate; you get to trigger the CIP and leaves-play abilities of some pretty rude creatures at a ridiculously discounted price.
Protean Hulk on the other hand simply isn't good at the fair price of seven mana. If you've got seven mana, you should be able to win the game like that.
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