[Discussion] Best permanents to change the fundamental turn?

[FoolofaTook]

I'm interested in assembling tech to slow down the fundamental turn to a more manageable 6 or 7 turns, a timeframe that would open up some currently dead ideas in Legacy.

Permanents that would slow a wide variety of decks if they got into play are what I'm looking for. They need to be fast (turn 2 capable or earlier with a good draw, turn 3 at the worst with an average draw.) They probably need to be playable in a blue deck at the moment to accommodate Force of Will and Daze, since the game isn't going to consistently last to turn 3 without them.

Examples would be Chalice of the Void and Arcane Laboratory.

Momentary permanent solutions like Energy Field are probably not worth looking at initially. I'm looking for permanents that will work against a variety of common threats and that are defendable to create a slower game.

[Nydaeli]

Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance are pretty direct examples of what you're talking about. Blue gives you Propaganda which is huge against Goblins and other aggro.

[lolosoon]

Tempo disruption and couterspells ?!
You might take a look here or several 5/3 or Stax deck over the net.

3Sphere and Chalice are your best friends, but i'm not sure you can wait turn 6-7 to stabilize. You have to apply some pressure early, before turn 4 imho, and pack board sweeper//propaganda effects to contain vial aggro which doesn't care about your lockpieces permanents...

Still, maybe a rough decklist could help to understand what you really want your deck to do ?!

[Zilla]

Chalice, Force of Will, Daze, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Trinishpere, Sphere of Resistance, Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, Solitary Confinement, Glowrider, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, and Smallpox are all options.

This is an exceedingly general question, really. More specificity in terms of colors and general strategy would help to narrow it down. The main archetypes that utilize this kind of strategy are board control decks and Stax, so you'd do well to look at them for ideas.

[FoolofaTook]

What I'm looking for is widely applicable defensive/shutdown permanents that can come into play early enough to form the basis for a Control based theme designed to slow the game down a bit and produce predictability at turn 6 or 7.

Ideally it would be 8 permanents tops in the deck as the main defenses, probably supplemented by Force of Will, Daze and Counterspell.

Moat doesn't work well against Goblins because it's just too slow to get into play, not landing reliably until turn 4 and only then with a tap out. The Abyss can come into play much earlier, however its removal is too slow to keep up with Goblins ability to absorb the sacrifices and keep rolling. It's possible that there's no reliable permanent to handle Goblins in the relevant timeframe, in which case Red and MD Pyroclasm or Earthquaker might be the answer.

I liked the look at Faerie Stompy, however it doesn't seem to change the fundamental turn much. My guess is it wins by turn 4 a lot itself. Trinket Mage for Chalice was an eye-opener though. I guess cheap artifacts that are tutorable to the hand would be a real possibility, particularly given that Trinket Mage can trade off with Goblins.

The reason I used Chalice and Arcane Laboratory as the initial examples is that both can work against multiple themes due to their effect disrupting all spells at a given cost or all spells after the first in a turn.

[dre4m]

First of all, you are NOT going to slow the fundamental turn down to turn six or seven, it just will not happen. In fact, since you're talking about the fundamental turn, you will be unable to change it by adding permanants to a deck! This is dictated by the overall speed of the format, and even though excellent and effeicient cards like Trinisphere, Chalice, Rule of Law, and Sphere of Resistence exist, their presence will not effect the fundamental turn until they are played in roughly fifty percent of decks. perhaps the topic should be "Which cards can conceivably come online fast enough to give a slower deck a fighting chance against Legacy's blindingly fast combo decks?"

[Deger]

I would have to agree. But do look at the stax builds they are a real good example of a decent control deck in this format.

[FoolofaTook]

First of all, you are NOT going to slow the fundamental turn down to turn six or seven, it just will not happen. In fact, since you're talking about the fundamental turn, you will be unable to change it by adding permanants to a deck! This is dictated by the overall speed of the format, and even though excellent and effeicient cards like Trinisphere, Chalice, Rule of Law, and Sphere of Resistence exist, their presence will not effect the fundamental turn until they are played in roughly fifty percent of decks. perhaps the topic should be "Which cards can conceivably come online fast enough to give a slower deck a fighting chance against Legacy's blindingly fast combo decks?"

I meant for the deck, not for the meta. Once a deck is played that does what I am looking to do the meta will shift of it's own accord, just as Flash-Hulk shifted the meta dramatically just by existing.

As to the topic, it really is not combo-specific, although anti-combo needs to be part of the equation. The small number of permanents that cause the effect will need to be anti-aggro, anti-combo and resilient against discard.

The basic assumption in the deck is probably going to be Blue counters to prevent disaster and protect the key permanents. It's looking more and more to me like Red is going to be the second color as it gives access to a wide range of Sorceries that can cheaply control aggro without having to target potentially untargettable creatures.

So from that standpoint I'm looking at Blue and Red enchantments and artifacts as the likely permanent pool to pick from.

I'd like to go creatureless in the MD to invalidate anti-creature cards in the opponent's plan and also to setup a possible transitional sidebord to a creature aggro based attack for game 2.

[technogeek5000]

Aether flash seems like a good perm to control aggro. It basically smokes goblins, fish, and early in the game its good against thresh. And since your playing blue you will be able to protect it.

[FoolofaTook]

Aether flash seems like a good perm to control aggro. It basically smokes goblins, fish, and early in the game its good against thresh. And since your playing blue you will be able to protect it.

It's expensive to cast is the problem. It might be a good 2 of along with 2 or more Earthquake though, since it also does in Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant and other cheap and annoying creatures. Do Mishra's Factories and other permanents that become creatures get around Aether Flash, or are they considered to come into play at the moment they change to a creature?

Related question: using just Red and Blue is there any reliable way to tutor for artifacts or enchantments? I figure Burning Wish is probably locked in at 2 in the deck to go get sideboard Sorceries that deny but are too specific to put in the main deck more than once.

[Michael Keller]

What about Stasis?

[HPC]

What I'm looking for is widely applicable defensive/shutdown permanents that can come into play early enough to form the basis for a Control based theme designed to slow the game down a bit and produce predictability at turn 6 or 7.

Ideally it would be 8 permanents tops in the deck as the main defenses, probably supplemented by Force of Will, Daze and Counterspell.

It sounds like what you're looking for is a slow-down shell that can go in pretty much all decks. But if you're devoting part of your deck to slow down the fundamental turn there's only 2 things that can result:

1) You slow down the fundamental turn, but it doesn't matter because things still happen just at a later point in the game (e.g. Sphere of Resistance, Arcane Lab, Porphyry Nodes, Trinisphere).

2) Your slow-down strategy helps you obtain control over the board and essentially you're not changing the fundamental turn because you reach inevitability before your opponent's fundamental turn (e.g. Stasis, Chant lock, Smokestack).

[Tacosnape]

Tangle Wire comes to mind as the only thing that just flat out stalls the game for a couple turns.

But everything that stalls can be bounced or removed.

[BreathWeapon]

Root Maze and Orb of Dreams are both amazing in a format where 8 Fetchlands is the standard count for every manabase.

[FoolofaTook]

What about Stasis?

Stasis requires enough support elsewhere in the deck that I'm looking at it as a secondary option. One of the sideboard options that I'm considering if I go transformational is a Stasislock sideboard.

Root Maze and Orb of Dreams are both amazing in a format where 8 Fetchlands is the standard count for every manabase.

Root Maze also looks great against Goblin Charbelcher, giving you a turn's grace to kill it. I'll have to look at that seriously, because it also works with Stasis. I do want to run 8 fetchlands myself though so there are trade-offs.

I did not know about Orb of Dreams and yes it looks great for the deck if it transforms to Stasislock. Why would anybody play Frozen Aether over this? Not sure I understand why an artifact was made that much better than a more expensive spell that uses colored mana? The only synergy I can see with Frozen Aether is if Energy Flux and Stasis are being used to make the board artifact free.

Tangle Wire comes to mind as the only thing that just flat out stalls the game for a couple turns.

But everything that stalls can be bounced or removed.

Yeah, the counters are mainly to stop stuff from being removed before it's served its purpose. Tangle Wire might be great or might be too situational and expensive to work. I'll have to proxy it in in some decks and ask a few friends to play me ad nauseum until it either proves or not.

It sounds like what you're looking for is a slow-down shell that can go in pretty much all decks. But if you're devoting part of your deck to slow down the fundamental turn there's only 2 things that can result:

1) You slow down the fundamental turn, but it doesn't matter because things still happen just at a later point in the game (e.g. Sphere of Resistance, Arcane Lab, Porphyry Nodes, Trinisphere).

2) Your slow-down strategy helps you obtain control over the board and essentially you're not changing the fundamental turn because you reach inevitability before your opponent's fundamental turn (e.g. Stasis, Chant lock, Smokestack).

Option 3 is: the deck makes fast concepts so unpredictable that they fall out of favor and also manages to win enough that the victory over cheese is not pyrrhic.

[dre4m]

I meant for the deck, not for the meta. Once a deck is played that does what I am looking to do the meta will shift of it's own accord, just as Flash-Hulk shifted the meta dramatically just by existing.

If you are talking about this deck, you are just stalling your opponent, not changing the fundamental turn. Their fundamental turn will still be the same, because you are one deck, and you cannot compare a deck that stalls to HulkFlash, because HulkFlash is a totally degenerate combo that wins faster than you can say "chaos orb." If anything, a deck like this would only encourage faster combo decks that can win before your stalling comes online, the only card that I think can help you here [outside of fast mana rituals which are counterproductive to your strategy] is Root Maze, and that will only be good if combined with something resembling an RG Stax shell, but you will still have the problem of needing to cast your own spells while your opponent can wait a turn, untap, and Ritual their way to victory.

As to the topic, it really is not combo-specific, although anti-combo needs to be part of the equation. The small number of permanents that cause the effect will need to be anti-aggro, anti-combo and resilient against discard.

Aggro is much easier to handle than combo, especially at the moment, because there are plenty of good and efficient board-sweeping spells and other cards that are effective against creatures, but combo can kill you much, much, much faster. I will urge that you will NOT get the effect you want with a small number of permanents. In order to slow down a large portion of the format, you will end up devoting your deck to it. Finally, no card is good against aggro and combo that is not vulnerable to discard, because EVERY card is, except maybe Guriella Tactics and Dodecapod.

The basic assumption in the deck is probably going to be Blue counters to prevent disaster and protect the key permanents. It's looking more and more to me like Red is going to be the second color as it gives access to a wide range of Sorceries that can cheaply control aggro without having to target potentially untargettable creatures.

UR control has been tried , and neither of these colours will give you what you need in terms of stalling power, so you will either need to change the focus or play severely suboptimal cards that will probably hurt you as well, like Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere.

So from that standpoint I'm looking at Blue and Red enchantments and artifacts as the likely permanent pool to pick from.

I'd like to go creatureless in the MD to invalidate anti-creature cards in the opponent's plan and also to setup a possible transitional sidebord to a creature aggro based attack for game 2.

What are you going to kill them with? Urza's Rage? Fireball? Good luck living long enough.

You are not at all changing or slowing down the fundmental turn, but simply drawing out the game, which has more to do with how your deck operates than anything about the format's general speed. Plenty of decks have the tools to slow down an opponent, such as counters, discard, removal, etc, but if you want something truly along the lines of what you are talking about, consider Emidlin's Sun Tower.

[scrumdogg]

Root Maze also looks great against Goblin Charbelcher, giving you a turn's grace to kill it. I'll have to look at that seriously, because it also works with Stasis. I do want to run 8 fetchlands myself though so there are trade-offs.

I did not know about Orb of Dreams and yes it looks great for the deck if it transforms to Stasislock. Why would anybody play Frozen Aether over this? Not sure I understand why an artifact was made that much better than a more expensive spell that uses colored mana? The only synergy I can see with Frozen Aether is if Energy Flux and Stasis are being used to make the board artifact free.

Frozen Aether has two significant advantages over Orb of Dreams - for U extra, only your opponents permanents come into play tapped (symmetry sucks...) and it pitches to Force of Will (with free counters being an important component in a Stasis deck).

[Cait_Sith]

I am trying to understand what he wants here. You want a deck that is designed to prevent your opponent from reaching his fundamental turn on schedule and are looking for permanents that are good at that? A fundamental turn is the turn in which a deck, unopposed (or with little opposition), either A) Wins the game or B) Has effectively ground out your opponent. Technically a fundamental turn cannot be changed, but you can prevent them from having a good position when they get there.

EX: Goblins has a fundamental turn of approximately 4.5. TES has a fundamental turn of 1.5. Solidarity has 4. Most Aggro-Control has 6 or 7.

You want to stretch this out? Play Prison. Ghostly Prison on the field can add 4-5 turns to Goblins. Use Discard. TES has a much harder time going off if you Duress away something important, or hit them with a Hymn. Solidarity... Just play Aggro-Control or several Chalices, a Trinisphere, an Ivory Mask... Against Aggro-Control you can play straight Aggro or Control.