History
When the format first had a separate list from Vintage everyone feared the dreaded "Combo Winter of 2004" that never came. Deck lists were untuned and just not strong enough to compete in the metagame; many of which ran four Diminishing Returns, Helm of Awakening, and Goblin Charbelcher which were terrible in the metagame. This lead combo to sit on the backburners of the format with its prized deck Nausea created by Evil Roopey in the open forums. Nausea was an alright combo deck for its time but was never broken or strong enough to break through the barriers of tier two.
About a year later a deck that was based on Ill-Gotten Gains came out called "Iggy Pop" created by Michael Bomholt (Bomholmm), this deck with the addition of the newly printed Infernal tutor was strong enough to take down those barriers. "Iggy Pop" did very well at large events such as GP Philly and Worlds. "Iggy Pop" rained champion of Tendrils based combo for a long while, there was other combo around but wasn't very tuned. About six to eight months later the sets Coldsnap and Timespiral were printed.
Coldsnap and Timespiral gave combo cards necessary to handle control and give combo the edge it had been waiting for all along. The card Rite of Flame was printed it was the second best 'Ritual' effect in the game since Dark Ritual. This card allowed combo to "combo off" more reliably and quickly in the opening turns of the game. The next card to help combo dramatically is a card called Empty the Warrens, this card is was put combo over the edge. Combo could now run multiple win conditions that killed in a timely manner, dodge hate cards like Meddling Mage, and kill with opposite cards to avoid hate for the other win condition.
A deck called "The EPIC Storm" created by Bryant Cook (Wastedlife) would soon break the surface using cards from these new sets. "The EPIC Storm" and "Iggy Pop" would soon start competing to be "the combo deck" of the format. Soon after this "The EPIC Storm" took first place at The Mana Leak Open in Stratford Connecticut piloted by its creator. "The EPIC Storm" would soon break another barrier of being the first ritual based combo deck to break the LMF in over two years.
With the release of the next set Planar Chaos combo gained another powerful tool in the card Simian Spirit Guide, all combo decks alike could abuse it but very few did. With Simian Spirit Guides addition to combo, Belcher lists flourished out of nowhere and a team from Canada would make a list called "CRET Belcher". This list was piloted to a second place finish at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft Three in Baldwinsville New York by Brian Diefendorf (Ewokslayer).
Then Flash Happened.
The Decks
Iggy Pop
The EPIC Storm (TES)
CRET Belcher
Spanish Inquisition (SI)
Combo Summer
Many people believe that these combo decks will dominate the metagame in the summer of 2007, much like the hype of "Combo Winter in 2004". But is this hype? Combo has been performing the best it has ever been in the format currently, for the first time we have a format that somewhat resembles a rock, paper, scissors format. Is combo summer healthy? Many believe that combo being this powerful is bad for the format and will make players withdraw from Legacy. I believe this is the healthiest Legacy has ever been. I said it, "Combo is healthy for the format." With combo in the format, it brings the best deck in the format (Goblins) down to reality and shoves it on its ass. While combo is for the first time at its peak, it's not overly powerful. The "Aggrocontrol" deck of the format still goes near 50/50 with each and every one of these combo decks.
The Big Question
Will "Combo Summer of 2007" happen? Combo now has all the right tools to be successful for the first time in the format. Many people believe that combo is unhealthy for the format and should have certain pieces such as Empty the Warrens or Lion's Eye Diamond banned. While I disagree to this due to the fact that it allows the format to evolve and make changes much like a healthy format should, many other people believe the opposite. The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable. Lets face it, little Timmy's elf deck wasn't competitive before Empty the Warrens; why would it be now? Combo is still a small portion of the metagame, and will always remain a decent but small portion of it.
Thank you for reading, and please discuss.
The problem with the rock, paper, scissors analogy is that Combo can still beat decks designed to hate on it, and a lot more effectively than Goblins ever could. Combo can go first and have 16 Goblins on the board, a lethal Belcher shot, or a 11 Tendrils of Agony on the stack before you can get a move, and there isn't a consistent way to stop any of this. Even really good hands can bully their way through Force of Will.Originally Posted by wastedlife
Even if you get a turn, what then? A lot of the storm decks, especially TES, tend to shrug off Duress and Cabal Therapy like they aren't even there. Cards like Hymn to Tourach and Meddling Mage have become too slow, which I think is very bad for the format. Decks are relying on narrow cards like Chalice of the Void simply because it can be played for 0 mana, and 0 mana disruption cards are quickly becoming the only way decks can counteract combo. Four of the biggest anti-combo cards in recent times have been Force of Will, Leyline of the Void, Engineered Explosives, and Chalice of the Void, and Tormod's Crypt isn't far behind. All of which can be played for 0 mana.
I believe that combo is too fast and will drive players out of this format very quickly. The possibility of dying before getting a turn fills a lot of players with a sense of futility and resentment towards the format. Everyone I know around in Birmingham would rather face Goblins than any combo deck because with Goblins, decks have a shot without dedicating 12-20 maindeck slots to fighting it.
Combo being as powerful as it is now is bad for the format.
Flash was banned. Because it made the game unfun and very often people didn't even get a turn. It hit that "Nothing I could do about it" nerve that a lot of people get, correct or not.Will "Combo Summer of 2007" happen? Combo now has all the right tools to be successful for the first time in the format. Many people believe that combo is unhealthy for the format and should have certain pieces such as Empty the Warrens or Lion's Eye Diamond banned. While I disagree to this due to the fact that it allows the format to evolve and make changes much like a healthy format should, many other people believe the opposite. The format has dealt with many powerful things and has adapted to deal with them such as Goblin Lackey and Flash. It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable.
Lackey is a 1/1. Lackey can be dealt with by countless cards. Lackey can also be completely ignored by most combo decks, as well as decks packing anti-aggro locks like Solitary Confinement, or decks packing board sweepers by Pyroclasm. Lackey doesn't win the game if he succeeds. Combo decks win the game if they succeed.
Comparing the two for any reason beyond them being the two cards that made the most impact on Legacy is absurd.
Lion's Eye Diamond has had the third heaviest impact of any card in Legacy. It's fueled Gamekeeper Salvagers, Iggy Pop, Epic Storm, and countless other decks including modern Dredge decks. But it's arguable that it's not the culprit, and I don't think it is. Like all the other accelerants, it can cause severe problems, but none of the accelerants on their own are the problem. The problem is when they all get piled together.
The culprits are Empty the Warrens and to a lesser degree, Burning Wish.
Empty the Warrens is the single strongest Storm card ever printed. It's also the single strongest kill condition legal in Legacy right now. Tendrils may kill you instantly, but it takes double black and needs a storm count of 9 to do it. Brain Freeze decks you, but needs multiple copies or a storm count of 15-17. Empty the Warrens can put you in a game state most decks can't recover from with a storm count of only 4-6, which is ridiculous. This means it can do it without any tutoring or drawing, off only the opening hand. Whereas Lackey can be dealt with by fast and good cards like Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and so forth, a quick Empty the Warrens requires you have a 1-2 mana boardsweeper, and very few of those exist. Engineered Explosives, Punishment, Powder Keg, Sandstorm, and Rain of Blades are the big guns here, but none short of possibly EE has comparable strength to the Lackey answers.
Burning Wish is the strongest tutor in Legacy, and in large part it's Burning Wish's fault (And slightly less so for Infernal Tutor) that Lion's Eye Diamond gets such a bad rep. Burning Wish gives combo decks insane resiliency and consistency, though this is not as large of a problem as the sheer speed of the combo decks.
Combo Summer 2007 will probably happen to a minor degree, but it'll get worse in the Fall. Empty the Warrens will be the chief culprit with Burning Wish as its partner-in-crime, but it's ETW who will ultimately be the most responsible for the downfall of the metagame.
none of those decks shrug off duress like it wasn't there. Occasionally, they will topdeck right back into the card they needed to combo off, but often it can buy you a turn or two, which may be all you need to get more vital disruption online.
Although I did duress an iggy player turn 1 on the play once, and he did have a duress proof hand. That was gay, but there's nothing you can do about it.
As far as a combo summer, I wouldn't be at all surprised. Goblins will still always be a dominant deck, although it may have trouble with the combo matchups, if the format shifts heavily towards combo and anti-combo, goblins will be a solid choice to wreck the anti-combo decks.
Realistically, empty the warrens may be too powerful for the format, but it's way too early to tell.
I feel like many people have a preoccupation with hating combo. People dont like combo because it means that aggro decks without disruption are pretty much useless but I didnt hear much crying when goblins pretty much forced out blue based control. I think it all comes down to people not wanting to change with thier environment. People get comfortable with a certain style of deck being playable and when that is disrupted they get upset. I think combo getting better is good for the metagame because as stated earlier it pushs goblins back to just being a good deck and it means that control can play. With combo getting better it also means that legacy is going to start looking more like vintage and will become more so as more sets arrive. I think its ok as long as it doesnt speed up the format too much and every so often it happens but I think having combo decks that can win consistently on turn 3 is not bad afterall combo wouldnt be any good if it couldnt at least outrace aggressive decks in the format.
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
Combo is becoming more consistent, and now has stronger tools to fight aggro-control, control, and even the combo mirror.
Bryant, that's a great piece. Now that I think about it, every player, whether they're playing aggro, tempo, stax, or any other combo deck, expect to hate on it. I cant think of very much to hate on combo when they have so much flexibility in the form of Burning Wish (or Living Wish if you're playing Golden Grahams). Being able to answer cards like Null Rod, while forcing them to answer so many must-counters is deadly, but in a deck with a faster goldfish is basically saying "Hi, I'm Combo. I'm Vial Goblins with a faster goldfish and a hot fallback girilfriend (Empty the Warrens, not really, but since it wins, it's hot).
Goblins was able to employ this strategy of answering certain cards while forcing them to be on the edge of the fence. Siding in Tranquil Domain while still playing crap like Matron to find Goblin King(s) and Ringleaders to slowly leverage itself until it can find Domain is quite deadly, considering the fact you have to answer the threats more often than the answers to your answers. In short, reflect that with decks like TES.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
I don't think Combo is too good at this point in time.
I agree with the statement that Combo is alot like Goblins- it makes people play good cards, and competitive decks.
Hell, most of the hate against Combo isn't that narrow or is good against other decks such as Stifle, Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, etc. And the one card I don't want to see when I'm playing Combo is Stifle. God that card is so fucking nuts right now.
What I see happening with the increase of decks like TES and Belcher is the rise of Control decks that beat said decks and the decks that prey upon them, Threshold and its ilk.
I believe that the Legacy metagame is incredibly diverse and healthy. Great piece, btw.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
I actually prey for said winter, as I know we all know that combo is getting more and more consistant and faster... lets face it people, the turn shifted from 3-4 to a CONSISTANT 1-2 kill. TES and SI love to go first turn with a lethal storm count and make you cry... but if these decks weren't any good, would there be any fun at the table for either player (the pilot of said combo & his opponent).
no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game', whether it be the combo deck that just fizzled or the control deck that forced them to 'fizzle'.
Combo decks need to be good, so control players an have a challenge and aggro players don't have a prayer... that said, looks like I am going to be playing landstill for this combo meta comming up!
First off I cant stand that you compared Lackey and Flash. Yes Flash is utterly broken to that point. It was ban worthy and beat the snot out of dedicated hate decks. Where the hell were you this spring?
I dont know if you left Solidarity and Gamekeeper out on purpose or simply forgot about them. You can have your personal opinions all you want Gamekeeper is a combo deck and it has placed very well for itself.
I dont think combo is too much of a problem. The only decks that combo completely snuffs are the ones designed with no proper outs to a combo opponent. Those decks usually get a significant boost against control/aggro because of what they lack against combo. Glass Cannon decks are fine in certain meta's.
Now playing real formats.
Despite having combo finishes it's difficult to call High Tide and Gamekeeper/Salvagers combo in the same sense of the word that we use to describe TES and Belcher because of their fundamental turns. I'd argue that High Tide is a control deck with a combo finish and Gamekeeper/Salvagers is a board control deck with a combo finish more than actual combo. I don't think I've ever heard some one use the words unhealthy or unfair when describing High Tide or Gamekeeper/Salvagers, and I think that's probably because of aggro being able to race race both of those decks to their fundamental turn.
I think in order for combo to be "combo," it needs to be a full turn faster than the fastest aggro deck in the format.
This is flawed logic. The fastest aggro deck in the format is now Manaless Ichorid. It wins turns 1-3 the fundemental CRET and TES turns. Does this mean it is a combo deck?
Some builds of flash combo were designed to go off specifically turn 3 instead of a turn 1-2 rush. Are those not considered combo by your standard?
I have heard many many clammers of Solidarity being unfair by winning instant speed and being reliable enough to master the stack. Ive heard many of my opponents tell me Gamekeeper was unhealthy as a combo deck simply because I ran 8 discard spells. These decks are simply under represented at the moment. Gamekeeper just won the 2 Man Tournament run by Tacosnape and it does extremely well for me whenever I play it.
I would say the only difference between the aforementioned decks and Solidarity/Gamekeeper is the skill required to pilot them. Alot of people made cracks about Gearhart being the only one that could pilot Solidarity correctly till multiple other fans grinded out games and learnt how to make the right play with the deck. Gamekeeper is admitedly the most complicated decision packed deck Ive ever played.
Most decks like TES and CRET actually play themselves. You just need to play the cards in the right order and filter colored mana correctly.
Now playing real formats.
No, surmising that Mana-Less Ichorid is indeed an aggro deck when the deck has no traditional affiliations with aggro and uses Lion's Eye Diamond and Token Creatures to win, characteristics which could be used to categorize Mana-Less Ichorid with combo, is a tangential counter argument for a point I think most people will recognize for what it is.
Isn't it obvious that Turn 3 Flash is still faster than the Turn 4 fundamental turn of aggro and thus fits the definition of "combo" as I used it above?
Where are those cries of the unfairness of High Tide and Gamekeeper now?
I'm not going to get into an argument about skill.
why are you guys arguing about whether or not gamekeeper, ichorid, and solidarity are combo?
they are obviously combo, and I do not see any room for confusion... now if we had an exact definition then that would be nice.
to settle the 'arguement', breath was right... end of discussion.
this thread is about whether or not there will be a high population of combo players this summer. It has nothing about decks that could be combos or not.
honestly, I would truely like to know what you guys personally think the fundamental turn has become with the 'newer' meta.
Personally I think it is 1-3, that is enough time to kill with a quick goblins' hand, kill with a combo deck, and find answers for either by the third party (i.e. control).
Chill out a bit, take a breather before posting. If you reread what I said I was talking about Empty the Warrens and Lion's Eye Diamond when mentioning the "Unstoppable or utterly broken".
It was meant to be on Ritual based combo neither Gamekeeper or Solidarity fall under this catagory. I've never said gamekeeper hasn't placed for its self, but I believe its more like the Rock with a combo finish than a combo deck. Combo decks aim to win ASAP were as Gamekeeper takes its time winning.
It's not like either card mentioned is unstoppable or utterly broken to the point a large part of the metagame is unplayable.
Im pointing out how you mention Flash is stoppable and not utterly broken to the point that a portion of the metagame is unplayable. Which is absurd. Flash rendered several archetypes unplayable such as Angel Stompy, Survival, Lands.dec; Look through the N&D and check out how many people drop the chime "cant beat flash".
I didnt see anything posted about your "History" of combo only in regards to ritual combo. The topic is Combo Summer not Ritual Combo.
I dont really care whether each deck is classified as Combo/Control or Control/Combo but nontheless each wins in a combo fashion not by swinging with Mishras Factories. Keeper does play Dark Ritual and is fully capable of winning turn 2. Doesnt that still make it a ritual based combo with a fundemental turn 2?
In conclusion, this thread needs more Gearhart.
Now playing real formats.
I know people are going to go on and on about this forever without really changing either sides minds but from what I have heard from proponents of both sides is this:
Proponents of banning warrens feelings: Its ok that goblins distorts the format and certain specific cards like lackey make most control decks near unplayable but thats ok because I don`t like control. Empty the warrens and belcher are bad evil cards because it means my aggro deck is stupid and I have to play with control cards in my stompy deck.
Proponents of keeping things the way they are: Everything that is good distorts the format in some way to where certain cards or even decks are unplayable. Empty the warrens makes it to where you have to be able to answer another I win type situation. If you don`t like it`s too bad. Suck it up or die because the DCI ain`t gonna save ya.
I am obviously biased but anyone who is honest with themselves or those around them know everyone is biased to an extent. I think the comparison between goblin lackey and ETW is the stongest evidence for leaving things as they are and its what has made me a strong advocate for leaving ETW alone.
If goblin lackey is left unanswered or uncountered it will win the game by turn 3 and so will ETW. Almost all the same tools that is good against lackey is good against ETW. The only thing that makes lackey manageable today is the distortion that was caused by lackey himself. I think in time people will learn to adapt and the same distortion will make ETW manageable.
In short I beleive ETW and lackey are on the same power level so it is reasonable to make the claim that ETW is broken, distorting and should be banned if you agree that goblin lackey is also broken, distorting and should be banned but it is NOT ok to say ETW should be banned if lackey is ok. If you are making that argument you are arguing for a format with a metagame distorted to your personal liking rather than what is reasonable and balanced in correlation with what else is available in the format.
To not thirst for power is to be at the mercy of those that do
Pinpoint creature removal is good against ETW? Wow. I've been missing out. Mass removal will effect both, but the problem is "Will you be able to cast your board clearer in time?"
Last edited by Cabal-kun; 06-17-2007 at 10:46 AM. Reason: Quote tags weren't working.
This is such a ridiculous statement. What the hell do StP, Lightning Bolt, Funeral Charm, Small Pox, Mogg Fanatic, Darkblast, Plated Sliver, Nimble Mongoose, Basking Rootwalla, Carnophage, Sarcomancy, any other 1-drop capable of blocking and killing lackey, or any pinpoint removal do against EtW? Kill 1 of 12 turn one tokens? You can make the case that anti-goblin cards (Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison/Propoganda, Hail Storm, Pyroclasm) all work against EtW, but anti-Lackey cards certainly do not. The problem is, Goblins cannot get 10 - 16 power out on turn 1, so you actually have time to get enough mana to cast any of the aforementioned cards. EtW can, and there is very little one can do against a horde of 10+ goblins before you even get a turn.
Brightstone Ritual.
I can imagine Vial Gobs sideboarding in brightstone ritual after a g1 anal pounding by TES, only to add 14 red mana to their pool and go bonkers with warchiefs, piledrivers, ringleaders and so on.
It is true that all cards that effect Empty the Warrens also effect Goblin Lackey.
The point that blacklotus3636 was making just got turned on it's head because he reversed the cases. When the metagame adapts to handle a turn 1 ETW effectively then Lackey will no longer be a big threat. Aether Vial will still be an issue though.
Broken does not necessarily mean ban-worthy. It just means a very synergistic and powerful card, or combination of cards. In this case, yes Goblins is a broken deck. It, as Diablos put it perfectly, has Demonic Tutors, FoFs, Lackey, Vial, and a load of synergistic removal that's not dead against combo. Does the fact that this deck is by far the most resilient and powerful deck in Legacy (yes, it's both more powerful and resilient than fast combo) and that it distorts the meta around 1 (although you could also argue that Aether Vial is distorting in it's own various ways as well) 1cc creature that you MUST be able to either answer immediately, or ignore and win anyway, to be a viable deck make it worthy of some sort of banning? Debatable. The answers to Lackey are plentiful and in every color in one form or another. Sure it's frustrating when you're 3 color control deck isn't really viable because its goblin matchup sucks, or that your aggro deck will rarely be an optimal choice because goblins has better disruption, a faster kill, and more resiliency, but that happens in every format. There will always be better decks, faster decks, whathaveyou.
However, combo decks like TES are really pushing this format to the brink. On it's own, TES probably wouldn't be that big a problem. It's not that difficult to adapt your deck to deal with a combo deck, but, it is very difficult to shift your deck to simultaneous deal with both insanely fast combo with EtW and Goblins. It might even be impossible, although I doubt it. It's not so much the individual power of these decks that's the issue, it's the combined affect they're having on the format. I, personally, don't think a ban is necessary, but even if it is, what would you ban? Lackey? Vial? EtW? LED? Banning any one of those cards probably wouldn't kill the deck it resides in anyway, weaken it sure, but not kill it. As I said, I have no preference as to what get banned, if anything. But, make sure you're banning cards for the right reasons, and just because you're frustrated with the way the format's going.
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