This person ive played burning wishes for infernal tutor, infernal tutors for ... Desperate ritual becuase he thought Infernal Tutor was a Demonic Tutor and then decides hmmm I rather take three mana burn then make 10 goblins turn one... he then proceeds to play a belcher and says go, and then says o wait, i could of killed you with Simian Spirit Guide and a Rite of Flame. Then he kills me next turn. TWO TURNS LATER THAN HE COULD OF..... and he still wins... with that many make-me-wanna-throw-up play mistakes. A deck that is that easy to play... and wins that much... is that goood for a format? I wouldn't mind if the combo is like alluren or solidarity or some other deck(if you think those aren't competitive) that takes some skill and an I wouldn't mind losing at all... but when it involves someone who has no clue what they are doing can still win... well that makes me not want to play magic anymore... especially legacy.
You can't dismiss a deck based on beginners luck, if the opponent had tried that against you with an aggro-control deck, you could have really punished him for it. Combo decks are incredibly forgiving against aggro decks because of their nature, there's really not anything you can do about that.
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I guess this is just gaming philosophy more than "Is x or y deck unbeatable"
I don't think it's overall healthy for the format to have decks that can consistently win before Turn 3.....It completely reduces the fun factor for many players.....
If I pay my $10-20 to enter a tournament, I don't want a round lasting a few minutes unless the guy I played against was unbelievably lucky....
And the more combo decks can win Turn 1-2, the more you'll see them at tournaments
Combo is still a perfectly viable archetype if it wins Turn 3-4-5 rather than Turn 1-2....It was played by enough people to make it dangerous, but not enough to ruin tourneys
So, you've convinced me about ETW
So maybe ETW and LED should be banned :)
The problem with that assessment is that ETW isn't winning before turn 3/4, it's just casting 10 Goblins on turn 1/2. That still gives the opponent a lot of options, as opposed to Belcher just being GG.
Nothing about "combo" right now is degenerate, people just don't seem to like it, and that's not a good enough to reason to ban it. I think combo is good for the format, because it turns Goblins from being the best deck into a Glass Cannon and leaves other aggro decks that choose to interact with disruption a window of opportunity to establish themselves.
ETW doesn't scare me. It uses a 4 or 5 storm count to empty it's hand on turn 1 or maybe 2 and then it goes away to Earthquake and just loses.
I got back into Magic 2 months ago and I'm still having problems against a few decks but ETW is no problem at all. The first time I Earthquaked on turn 1 with a Lotus Petal the guy I was sitting opposite just looked at me disgustedly and said something to the effect of: "that's such a janky card, nobody plays it anymore." Of course he's not playing ETW any more, now he's going with Storm Entities and Tendrils of Agony.
CRET Belcher doesn't seem that broken. There are plenty of ways to deal with the goblin tokens and turn 1 Belcher hand is foiled by FoW. So you're not running blue? Then it's only fair that it's a bad matchup because you probably then have a good matchup against aggro-control. A rock-paper-scissors format isn't a bad thing because it keeps the archetypes balanced.
I dunno about TES though, but I doubt it'll rip the format and nobody plays SI because FoW rapes it.
In the past combo has always been the least played decktype and I only think it's fair that it becomes equal with the other decktypes.
I don't see how there's any sort of valid argument that "Rock-Paper-Scissors" is healthy for a format which currently goes something like "Rock-Paper-Doughnut-Aquarium-Chainsaw-Tax Rebate-Scone-Time-Alligator-Spaghetti-Walrus-Bomb-Scissors."
EDIT: For those who need further explanation:
Rock smashes Scissors.
Paper wraps around Rock.
I'd eat a Doughnut instead of Paper.
Doughnuts get soggy in an Aquarium.
Chainsaws appear in more zombie movies than Aquariums.
Tax Rebates make you able to afford Chainsaws.
Scones are nummy.
Time makes Scones stale.
Alligators live a long time.
Spaghetti kills Alligators. Violently.
Walrii can eat more Spaghetti than you can imagine.
Bomb blows up the Walrus.
Scissors cut the wire (THE BLUE ONE) to the Bomb.
Seriously, Rock-Paper-Scissors is a downgrade in health for a format that currently has like twenty hard to define deck archetypes all with bizarre varied results against the other nineteen.
So Scones don't beat anything but lose to Time? And Tax Rebates don't lose to ANYTHING?
So Goblins qualify as Tax Rebates?
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I'm a strong proponent of letting the environment evolve by itself. That's right, I don't believe any card should be banned (but that's off-topic). Just like in the world we live in, where an environment exists and species must evolve and adapt to survive, our Legacy environment constantly changes. Well, certain species have been presented with new advancements and have obviously taken advantage of them (Empty the Warrens). Yes, this speeds them up, and provides them with resiliency and consistancy, agression; Something every deck type tries to accomplish. Just because this deck type was able to do it, doesn't mean you should cut it down.
Other decks need to adapt or they will be kicked out of the tier. So you're Goblin deck isn't playable anymore. Frankly, big fucking deal. This isn't casual, where you can play your pet deck and expect to win. If you want to compete then you need to do what is necessary. Vintage is a perfect example of this, Combo is extremely fast and resilient, and certain decks have managed to stick around. Namely, Fish and Stax, and plenty of Workshop. Consequently, those decks have become viable in our format. So play them. Other decks like Thresh, Black Aggro, and Landstill can and have been tweaked to survive, and survive well. Even Goblins. I'm surprised that more people haven't tweaked with the Dirty Kitty version. It's got a strong, surprising combo packed into an agressive Goblin shell. Multiple win conditions (Grapeshot, hasted tokens) that Pithing needle can't stop because you have access to Hooligan, and Meddling Mage is worthless against because you still have that fast Goblin agression.
Anyway, if you need to pack a bunch of hate to deal with this, then you need to do it. Raise the bar by competing, don't lower it by cutting your competition down (unless you're across the table from them).
I'm currently running a disruption package of:
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Duress
with Confidant to keep the pressure coming, Goyf for quick, efficient beats, and plenty of deck manipulation/cantrip. I'm also tweaking to fit a triad of Explosives in main, though now I have them in the board, along with Plagues. This set-up has been working quite well. Fish can play a similar gameplan. Stax is insane. I think it's packing every viable hate card in a shell that can also beat a huge portion of decks in the field.
Basically, what I'm getting at, is quit bitching and start tweaking.
I think this topic came up with whole flash madness, but Legacy has nothing to do with vintage. I'd like to play a format where diversity is valued, and for that, I wouldn't mind seeing some unfair card to be banned. I know some people claims that eternal format's power lever will eventually lead the format into becoming Vintage Jr. Well, that should never happen, and thats the reason that some cards are Banned.
Constant pressure of losing game on turn 2 is a serious concern if you do not build decks with counters, and that's why everyone is worried about, at least that's what I think. This is legacy, where everyone can have fun with non-blue, non-black cards.
About the combo summer, we well have to see, but I think It will eventually prove to be too much for the format. there aren't much you can do outside of B/U to stop the fast combo, and that's pretty unhealthy, at least in legacy standard.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
There are plenty of ways to answer the decks. You can answer the combo itself (e.g. Chalice, FoW, discard), or answer the Goblin tokens it pours out(Engineered Plague, Earthquake, Pyroclasm, Tividar's Crusade, WoG)
G/r/w have a ton of disruption to choose from, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar, Sandstorm, Earthquake, Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives, Leyline of Singularity, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Jotun Grunt, Loaming Shaman, Phyrexian Furance, Tormod's Crypt, Glowrider, Truebeliever, Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Gilded Light to Red/Pyro blast etc. It's not as if G/r/w are helpless against combo, it's that G/r/w hasn't bothered to interact with combo, and it has conceded the match up because of it. It's never going to be a positive match up, but it's not as if it's hopeless.
Is this a valid argument? Loosing turn 2 if you do not play counters/hand disruption is much better than loosing turn 3 if you don't run removal for turn 1 lackey or cheap board sweepers?
Combo puts control again on the map, or at least gives counters and disruption a role in the format. Goblins by itself pushed a whole slew of control decks (and cards) out of the meta and you guys just acted like "whew, gotta run that plowshares, pyroclasms and plagues, then"... C'mon, people, Goblins used to take more slots in t8s than Flash did in the GP: Flash. Why is it ok for a guy to build a deck with pyroclasms main (or BW Confidant play plagues main for that instance) and its not for a guy to build a deck with Duresses and FoW main? I don't get it.
You guys gotta adapt again. Just that. Really.
Now entering scoop phase. Effects?
Um. GP Flash didn't have Summoner's Pact OR Pact of Negation, so i see no fair comparison of Flash and Gobbos.
Also, at least playing against Gobbos, you can block their Lackey/beaters with Wall of Roots/Blossoms.etc, kill their creatures. You can't use any of those to stop a 'turn 0, Caverns, ESG, Flash, Hulk, GG'. Which is why people hate combo.
If you don't have some controls as to which combo cards are available then the Legacy metagame will eventually (probably immediately) turn into go-win on turn 1 or earlier. There are just too many good threats out there and not enough answers that are immediately available. Flash-Hulk was almost at the go-win point in the less predictable DoTV variant. With the addition of Future Sight it might well have been at go-win.
The challenge for the DCI would be to create a Legacy meta in which Force of Will was just a good card, not an option that every deck with blue in it had to have.
Yes, It is OK. Having to deal with a broken creature deck is much more healthier than having to deal with broken combo deck. Creature, and combat step is much more general way of winning the game then making 12 goblins on turn 1 or tendrils for 20, thus there are more ways of keeping things in check.
@BreathWeapon
If this is your argument, I can argue for unbanning of Yagwill by naming 2,000 things that hoses graveyard. All the answers that you stated, except some exceptions, are way too slow. Some does not work with the color. Others are simply too slow.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
Warrens and Will have nothing to do with each other, one is a win condition that requires that the entire deck be built around it and the other is an engine that can be added to any deck. Warrens requires mass removal while Will requires graveyard removal, and in this format mass removal is more useful than graveyard removal, because it affects every deck in the format other than High Tide and Burn. Playing mass removal after a Warrens is the equivalent of a Mind Twist, while playing graveyard removal before/after a Will is one for one.
Those answers are too slow? Let me break this down for you,
Belcher, averages turn 1 Warrens at 10 Tokens
TES, averages turn 1 Warrens at 8 to turn 2 Warrens at 10
Against Belcher, all cards up to 2cc are guaranteed to stop the Tokens
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Crop Rotation for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Glacial Chasm, Sandstorm, Pyroclasm, Rough/Tumble, Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Devastating Dreams, Crime/Punishment, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg
Against, Belcher, all cards up to 3cc have a 50% chance to stop the Tokens game 1 and then a 100 chance to stop the tokens game 2/3.
Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague, Tividar's Crusade, Hailstorm, Solitary Confinement, Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Living Wish for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Burning Wish for Pyroclasm etc. and Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds.
Against TES, cards in the 3cc range have higher odds to stop the Tokens game 1, and even cards in the 4cc range have low odds to stop the tokens game 1. Most 4cc cards also either have Dark Ritual, in the case of Damanation, and Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, in the case of Magus of the Tabernacle, to accelerate the answer, and most 3cc cards have Dark Ritual, in the case of Engineered Explosives, and Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, in the case of Propaganda and Ghostly Prison, and Mox Diamond, in the case of Solitary Confinement, and Chrome Mox, in the case of almost any deck, to do the same thing.
Empty the Warrens is like playing Goblin Lackey with a self imposed Mind Twist. The problem with combo in this format is that it turns all of the opponent's answers into win conditions, and that's what makes combo fair in our environment. If you're consistently losing to Empty the Warrens, it's because you aren't prepared for Empty the Warrens. Goblin Charbelcher and Tendrils of Agony are much more threatening against aggro as it stands.
First, I have never actively said that ETW was problem. And, yes, your breakdown makes my point. So far, you have suggested two types of answers. Ones that addressed storm, and the other being ones that deals with large amount of tokens. Generally, the ones that runs one cannot run another, otherwise it's just a janky deck that loses to everything but combo.
And, I think someone already addressed this point, but Threats > Answers. Every single time. You can name ten billion cards that can answer first turn combo, It will always randomly win that die roll and kill you before you get to answer it. Did you not learn that from the Flash? Fish sucked balls, in a one deck dominated format, even with all that answers. The deck that packs answers you say will do the same. Sucking balls in every damn game and lose.
And your argument for my first post was you just throwing out random answers for the problem. I just want to prove that such argument does not work. You can make case for all the cards in the Banned list like that, and it is wrong.
EDIT: I know the link is part joke, but I like that post too much.
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
There's nothing that prevents a deck from running anti-storm and mass removal cards in the same deck,
Goblins: Root Maze, Pyrostatic Pillar, Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Pyrokinesis and Goblin Sharpshooter.
Dragon Stompy: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Pyrostatic Pillar, Earthquake, Rough/Tumble, Rolling Earthquake, Pyroclasm, Devastating Dreams, Burning Wish, Pyrokinesis, Cave-In, Siege Gang Commander, Warmonger and Powder Keg etc.
Fairy Stompy: Force of Will, Chalice of the Void, Trinket Mage for Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg.
AfFOWnity: Force of Will, Chalice of the Void and either Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives or Leonin Blade Trape.
Armageddon Stax: Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Glowrider, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Ghostly Pirson, Magus of the Tabernacle and Windborn Muse.
You also need to reconsider your definition of threats and answers, because in the Empty the Warrens vs mass removal model, the mass removal is the threat to the combo player, because he loses the game if his Empty the Warrens is removed. Goblins doesn't lose the game if Threshold casts Swords to Plowshares on the Goblin Lackey.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote