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Thread: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

  1. #2721

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostfire86 View Post
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...elm-RiP-combo)

    specifically:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post687747

    I'm not sure if you're going to be more consistent with the prison route.

    You can certainly play Energy Flux / Helm of Obedience / Rest in Peace in a Prison shell, but what benefit do you gain? I would think your match-ups are going to be about the same as the more traditional RiP combo decks, but you lack the consistency of their draw, the robustness of their manabase, and the protection of their disruption. What match-ups do you think are improved by using the prison strategy?

    I do still like the idea of using Helm / RiP as a transformational sideboard for Armageddon Stax, though. I think it's unexpected and could sneak a win.

  2. #2722

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...elm-RiP-combo)

    specifically:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post687747

    I'm not sure if you're going to be more consistent with the prison route.

    You can certainly play Energy Flux / Helm of Obedience / Rest in Peace in a Prison shell, but what benefit do you gain? I would think your match-ups are going to be about the same as the more traditional RiP combo decks, but you lack the consistency of their draw, the robustness of their manabase, and the protection of their disruption. What match-ups do you think are improved by using the prison strategy?

    I do still like the idea of using Helm / RiP as a transformational sideboard for Armageddon Stax, though. I think it's unexpected and could sneak a win.
    Those 2 RiP combo decks should not run Energy Field. They run Fetches, Brainstorms, all kinds of things that you need to progress your game state, and nuke your own Energy Field. The decks are okay on their own, but IMO, Energy Field is worth trying in a shell that doesn't run Instants, Sorceries, or permanents that hit your GY. Those are RiP-E Field combo decks. As far as 2-card combos go, Show and Tell/Omniscience is better. But running synergy with E Field, where Field is always good, that's new to me.

    You can't really ask which MUs are improved yet, again, the proposed decklist you literally can't play yet, due to mana-fixing things I noted. And it's not tuned to play in a tournament. I take the decklist as a theory of concept. And in theory, I think Ghostfire is right: Energy Field with prison pieces (E Field IS a prison piece, too) to make your E Field stick around more likely without needing RiP. I give credit where credit is due: the right way to jam E Field, and I totally didn't see it.

    Will a workable decklist be legacy-competitive? I dunno, most of the individual card choices are up in the air, IMO. But there are TONS of prison pieces to choose from, tons of permanents that will synergize with E Field, that it's absolutely worth the experiment to brew something up and goldfish, even play in your weekly to tune.

    Ghostfire - keep in mind, it took me 2 yrs to build a competitive form of UB Stax. So it's an investment. But that was pretty much only with the guys in my LGS, and I think you might find the right gents on this forum here to speed that up a lot.
    (Also - still try to find a way to run Chalice! It'll shut down Cabal Therapy from wrecking your own E Field, and other types of removal! But just my opinion.)
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  3. #2723

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Those 2 RiP combo decks should not run Energy Field. They run Fetches, Brainstorms, all kinds of things that you need to progress your game state, and nuke your own Energy Field. The decks are okay on their own, but IMO, Energy Field is worth trying in a shell that doesn't run Instants, Sorceries, or permanents that hit your GY. Those are RiP-E Field combo decks. As far as 2-card combos go, Show and Tell/Omniscience is better. But running synergy with E Field, where Field is always good, that's new to me.

    You can't really ask which MUs are improved yet, again, the proposed decklist you literally can't play yet, due to mana-fixing things I noted. And it's not tuned to play in a tournament. I take the decklist as a theory of concept. And in theory, I think Ghostfire is right: Energy Field with prison pieces (E Field IS a prison piece, too) to make your E Field stick around more likely without needing RiP. I give credit where credit is due: the right way to jam E Field, and I totally didn't see it.

    Will a workable decklist be legacy-competitive? I dunno, most of the individual card choices are up in the air, IMO. But there are TONS of prison pieces to choose from, tons of permanents that will synergize with E Field, that it's absolutely worth the experiment to brew something up and goldfish, even play in your weekly to tune.

    I kind of disagree... Energy Field, in the linked deck (with fetches), is a (2-of) support piece (the author even mentions how it can be used as an albeit fragile temporary out). In the prison shell (4-of), it looks like it's expected to be more a focal point, but it doesn't do anything without Rest in Peace. In both cases, once RiP is in play, you are working towards Helm for the win. The filtering/draw/protection package seems less fragile than drawing into a soft lock until you draw the win-con.

    I feel like there should be some motivation for replacing consistency (draw/filter/tutor/etc.) with a prison strategy. Don't get me wrong, I like to watch my opponent not play as much as the next guy, but Tinker/Colossus yields the same result...

    I think the shell of this type of combo is:

    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Rest in Peace
    2-3 Energy Field
    2-3 Helm of Obedience

    From there, you can jam prison (sol-lands) or filtering (fetch-lands)... I could see a case for prison, if it helps your tricky match-ups. If it doesn't, I think taking this down the brainstorm path (other thread) is much more viable and consistent.

    Path to Victory - Rest In Peace - Helm of Obedience - Activate - Win (same for both decks)

    Sol-Lands - Prison while finding RiP, Helm, and 4-6 lands

    Fetch-Lands - Miracles while finding RiP, Helm, and 4-6 lands

    The list I linked has a nice Enlightened Tutor toolbox and I'd be curious where Prison would improve the deck. It's certainly not going to improve against discard strategies, but could be more useful vs others. Which ones?

  4. #2724

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I kind of disagree... Energy Field, in the linked deck (with fetches), is a (2-of) support piece (the author even mentions how it can be used as an albeit fragile temporary out). In the prison shell (4-of), it looks like it's expected to be more a focal point, but it doesn't do anything without Rest in Peace. In both cases, once RiP is in play, you are working towards Helm for the win. The filtering/draw/protection package seems less fragile than drawing into a soft lock until you draw the win-con.
    I think in the right prison shell, where all your pieces inherently stick on the field (no Crucible, no Smokestack) Energy Field becomes a hot synergy piece to run with whatever your board state, and not just a combo piece with RiP. You're not going to make yourself sac it because of your Fetch. Its effect is powerful enough that your opponent has to find some way to remove it, somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I feel like there should be some motivation for replacing consistency (draw/filter/tutor/etc.) with a prison strategy. Don't get me wrong, I like to watch my opponent not play as much as the next guy, but Tinker/Colossus yields the same result...
    I despise when my opponent plays cards. It's obnoxious - it's like they feel entitled to have fun. Nope.
    But seriously, a proper decklist will hopefully address the consistency issue. Ghostfire put up Enlightened Tutor which, while I disagree with it as a card choice, is an initial way to address consistency problems.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  5. #2725

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    I think in the right prison shell, where all your pieces inherently stick on the field (no Crucible, no Smokestack) Energy Field becomes a hot synergy piece to run with whatever your board state, and not just a combo piece with RiP. You're not going to make yourself sac it because of your Fetch. Its effect is powerful enough that your opponent has to find some way to remove it, somehow.

    Against what deck? What deck is just going to sit and let you develop with an Energy Field in play (with no RiP)? This is my point, it has to help you in some way against some deck (preferably better than the fetchlands/Brainstorm version). Honestly, if you don't have RiP in play, most opponents won't care about Energy Field (unless they have ZERO ways to interact with you). If I'm playing BUG, I'll wait and Abrupt Decay or Force your next spell or Hymn you and 2- or 3-for-1 you. Miracles/Delver will just counter your next spell.

    Please understand, I can see how useful Energy Field can be. The big BUT, though, is if I've got RiP in play, why not just try to win? I would argue that you would NEVER Enlightened Tutor for Energy Field, even in the suggested decklist. Rest in Piece would be target #1 (obviously, I think), Helm of Obedience would be target #2. (There would be an outside chance where I would Tutor for a Mox Diamond turn 1 so that you would have turn 2 RiP turn 3 Helm and turn 4 win, but you have to have both in hand).

    Just my thoughts...

  6. #2726
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    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    Against what deck? What deck is just going to sit and let you develop with an Energy Field in play (with no RiP)? This is my point, it has to help you in some way against some deck (preferably better than the fetchlands/Brainstorm version). Honestly, if you don't have RiP in play, most opponents won't care about Energy Field (unless they have ZERO ways to interact with you). If I'm playing BUG, I'll wait and Abrupt Decay or Force your next spell or Hymn you and 2- or 3-for-1 you. Miracles/Delver will just counter your next spell.

    Please understand, I can see how useful Energy Field can be. The big BUT, though, is if I've got RiP in play, why not just try to win? I would argue that you would NEVER Enlightened Tutor for Energy Field, even in the suggested decklist. Rest in Piece would be target #1 (obviously, I think), Helm of Obedience would be target #2. (There would be an outside chance where I would Tutor for a Mox Diamond turn 1 so that you would have turn 2 RiP turn 3 Helm and turn 4 win, but you have to have both in hand).

    Just my thoughts...
    1st I would like to address BUG and other decks that target the player. Like always there is the sideboard for the lack of strength. Lets not worry about what might be and focus on what is.

    To the point that your making I have to agree...partially. If you have RIP and a way to collect Helm, drop, and activate by all mean go for it. This really comes down to probability, draw, play style, and the opponents ability. Hypotheticals in a preliminary of a theory is not always productive. If I have no opening but can enclose myself then push forward till you gain ground.

    Stax seems like a mid range deck when compared to Pox and Enchantress. Go to far in one direction and your in the neighborhood of one of the decks.

    Deck thoughts:

    Core
    2 helm of obedience
    3 energy field
    4 rest in peace

    Shell
    1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
    3 trinisphere
    4 winter orb
    4 ghostly prison (maybe a split between this and propaganda)


    So with this we have the beginnings of something:
    winter orb + ghostly prison=no one can attack you
    winter orb + Trinisphere=nothing gets cast quickly by the opponent except every few turns
    winter orb + the tabernacle at pendrell vale=opponent has at most one creature on the field (need to close this to zero)

    trinisphere, ghostly prison, the tabernacle at pendrell vale all hindering the opposition.

    I have my own reservations towards the RIP/Helm combo with the EF addition. It has little synergy with the deck in whole. Essentially the attack is on the mana base, but the core does nothing for this. I feel a pull towards changing the core into something like this:

    4 mana vortex
    3 crucible of worlds

    Add in 2 chrome mox to assist in mana production

    We now have a list that looks like:

    2 chrome mox
    4 mox diamond

    4 winter orb
    3 crucible of worlds
    3 trinisphere

    4 mana vortex
    4 ghostly prison

    24 cards....Add 4 chalice of the void. From a few games I've played there has been the growing picture that I really am only going to CotV for 1 counter most times. If I CotV for 2 at some point I hopefully have mana vortex on the field. Remove the white from this list by changing ghostly prison to">winter orb in play already, or mana vortex on the field. Remove the white from this list by changing ghostly prison topropaganda[/cards] and add in Kiora, the Crashing Wave. We nullify a permanent that we don't have an answer for, drop more land into the field to counter mana vortex with the bonus of card draw, and have a wincon of the emblem.

    2 chrome mox
    3 mox diamond

    3 intuition

    4 chalice of the void
    4 winter orb
    3 crucible of worlds
    3 trinisphere

    2 sylvan library
    3 mana vortex
    4 Propaganda

    3 kiora, the crashing wave

    34 cards....

    2 engineered explosives

    36 cards.....

    Add in academy ruins, and tolaria west........yep its looking much better I think.

    This is really stepping out of my normal deck designing....ugh...Im going to take a break and hit it again later. Let me know thoughts and ideas. GU may be better or worse, but I like to have a contrast deck to test against the main deck design, and another alternative. Its missing a secondary win condition.....true-name nemesis, and terravore would shine here I think.

  7. #2727

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by ghostfire86 View Post
    2 chrome mox
    3 mox diamond

    3 intuition

    4 chalice of the void
    4 winter orb
    3 crucible of worlds
    3 trinisphere

    2 sylvan library
    3 mana vortex
    4 Propaganda

    3 kiora, the crashing wave

    34 cards....

    2 engineered explosives

    36 cards.....

    Add in academy ruins, and tolaria west........yep its looking much better I think.

    This is really stepping out of my normal deck designing....ugh...Im going to take a break and hit it again later. Let me know thoughts and ideas. GU may be better or worse, but I like to have a contrast deck to test against the main deck design, and another alternative. Its missing a secondary win condition.....true-name nemesis, and terravore would shine here I think.
    I just posted a decent reply, and my f-ing internet connection choked and lost it. Sweet MF'er.

    Anyway, I forget whatall I was going to say. Basically, lemme throw you a full decklist so you have something to jam with (here are your lands, sir):

    Spells 31:
    3 intuition

    4 chalice of the void
    4 winter orb - make into 4x True-Name Nemesis?
    3 crucible of worlds
    3 trinisphere

    2 sylvan library
    3 mana vortex
    4 Propaganda

    3 kiora, the crashing wave

    2 engineered explosives - make 1x Eng Exp into Intuition #4?

    Mana 28:
    2 chrome mox
    3 mox diamond
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Tolaria West
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Island
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Wasteland
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Karakas

    (1 slot open - run Mox Diamond #4?)

    You're a little light on Green - only 9 direct sources - but you can Intution / Tol West for G if you need it.

    Also, I think cutting Winter Orb (which does nothing against Tempo/Combo/Burn, etc) for a win con will help you get there. WOrb can go in the SB, I think that's where you want it for playtesting right now.

    Pretty sure I put in all the lands you asked for! Mishra's Factory ain't no Creeping Tar Pit but it's something, I guess. Good luck! Feel free to jot down notes while you're playing, and share them with us!
    -Frogger
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  8. #2728

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Spells 31:
    3 intuition

    4 chalice of the void
    4 winter orb - make into 4x True-Name Nemesis?
    3 crucible of worlds
    3 trinisphere

    2 sylvan library
    3 mana vortex
    4 Propaganda

    3 kiora, the crashing wave

    2 engineered explosives - make 1x Eng Exp into Intuition #4?

    Mana 28:
    2 chrome mox
    3 mox diamond
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Tolaria West
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Island
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Wasteland
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    1 Mishra's Factory
    1 Karakas

    (1 slot open - run Mox Diamond #4?)

    You're a little light on Green - only 9 direct sources - but you can Intution / Tol West for G if you need it.

    Also, I think cutting Winter Orb (which does nothing against Tempo/Combo/Burn, etc) for a win con will help you get there. WOrb can go in the SB, I think that's where you want it for playtesting right now.

    Pretty sure I put in all the lands you asked for! Mishra's Factory ain't no Creeping Tar Pit but it's something, I guess. Good luck! Feel free to jot down notes while you're playing, and share them with us!
    -Frogger
    I think you're really light on green to consistently cast Sylvan Library early (normally you want 12-14). Intuition is way more powerful, so you may think about those spots and see how it plays.

    I also think you are light on blue to hit UU for Tolaria West, Mana Vortex, or True-Name Nemesis.

    Would you be better off using a Talisman or Signet instead of Chrome Mox? You're light on 'extra' colored cards for Mox and better artifact mana will help with a Mana Vortex.

    I understand why Engineered Explosives is attractive with Tolaria West, but setting on 2 is going to be rough on your Orb and Library. Would you be better off with Ratchet Bomb? Just thinking about what board state you might want Explosives to handle. It would also allow you to lower your Tolaria West count so that you aren't putting it into play tapped too often.

    I'm interested to hear how the Mana Vortex / Crucible / Orb lock plays. It seems too symmetric to me.

  9. #2729

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I understand why Engineered Explosives is attractive with Tolaria West, but setting on 2 is going to be rough on your Orb and Library. Would you be better off with Ratchet Bomb? Just thinking about what board state you might want Explosives to handle. It would also allow you to lower your Tolaria West count so that you aren't putting it into play tapped too often.
    Eng Exp is honestly kind of the bane of a Prison deck. But as a 1-of, that you can tutor multiple ways, and that your heavy hitters tend to be CMC higher than most Legacy threats... most of the time you dodge hitting yourself too hard.

    Also, Eng Exp was always told to me this way: "This card is Powder Keg with haste."

    Whatever Eng Exp nukes, Ratchet Bomb does the same thing. Not sure why you would swap to something far less tutorable.

    (Also note: Eng Exp tends to nuke your own Dimir Signet or whatever the appropriate mana-rock would be. Chrome Mox dodges this problem a lot better. Esp now that Insectile Aberration is CMC 1 and not CMC 0 these days.)

    EDIT: You can't just lower Tolaria West count, it's your manabase, but you can potentially replace it with another land. So instead of Tol West x4, what would you do: Tol West x3, Mystery Land x1? Not sure there's anything else that's more powerful than Tol West, esp that color-fixes.)
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  10. #2730

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Eng Exp is honestly kind of the bane of a Prison deck. But as a 1-of, that you can tutor multiple ways, and that your heavy hitters tend to be CMC higher than most Legacy threats... most of the time you dodge hitting yourself too hard.

    Also, Eng Exp was always told to me this way: "This card is Powder Keg with haste."

    Whatever Eng Exp nukes, Ratchet Bomb does the same thing. Not sure why you would swap to something far less tutorable.

    (Also note: Eng Exp tends to nuke your own Dimir Signet or whatever the appropriate mana-rock would be. Chrome Mox dodges this problem a lot better. Esp now that Insectile Aberration is CMC 1 and not CMC 0 these days.)

    EDIT: You can't just lower Tolaria West count, it's your manabase, but you can potentially replace it with another land. So instead of Tol West x4, what would you do: Tol West x3, Mystery Land x1? Not sure there's anything else that's more powerful than Tol West, esp that color-fixes.)
    I don't disagree that Tolaria West has usefulness, but, realistically, it sucks to have to play it from your hand as a mana source. It's a tutor that can play as mana. It's also a pretty narrow tutor for the cost, UU1 to find Chalice or EE or a mana rock is going to be rough with that few blue sources (including the TWs). Personally, I would test 4 Mox Diamond, 25 lands (8 sol-land, 2-3 TW, etc.) and 2 Coalition Relic. I'd love Relic to be Basalt Monolith, but I think you need the colored source more. Relic, at least, gives you a boost every other turn to help break the symmetry of some of the other lock pieces. (It should also dodge you CMC 2 issue while not causing the problems Chrome Mox will have. My gut feeling is that this deck cannot handle the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox.) Mana Vortex is a tricky card and you'll need mana-advantage rocks, especially with Winter Orb. Right now, I feel the TW tutor package is very slow. I might add a Hangarback Walker in as a tutorable potential win-con, mana-sink.

  11. #2731

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I don't disagree that Tolaria West has usefulness, but, realistically, it sucks to have to play it from your hand as a mana source. It's a tutor that can play as mana. It's also a pretty narrow tutor for the cost, UU1 to find Chalice or EE or a mana rock is going to be rough with that few blue sources (including the TWs). Personally, I would test 4 Mox Diamond, 25 lands (8 sol-land, 2-3 TW, etc.) and 2 Coalition Relic. I'd love Relic to be Basalt Monolith, but I think you need the colored source more. Relic, at least, gives you a boost every other turn to help break the symmetry of some of the other lock pieces. (It should also dodge you CMC 2 issue while not causing the problems Chrome Mox will have. My gut feeling is that this deck cannot handle the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox.) Mana Vortex is a tricky card and you'll need mana-advantage rocks, especially with Winter Orb. Right now, I feel the TW tutor package is very slow. I might add a Hangarback Walker in as a tutorable potential win-con, mana-sink.
    Again, Tol West is in the manabase - if you don't want to run it, which land are you going to swap for it?

    Coalition Relic is just about the same problem as Signets/Mana Rocks, as far as Engineered Explosives goes. Almost all Legacy threats are not CMC 0 (why Chrome Mox will most likely dodge Eng Exp) - a lot of Legacy threats are at CMC 1, 2, and some at 3 as well. It's the nature of balance in the cards. No one cares about Memnite, it's the Cranial Plating that gets you.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  12. #2732

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    Again, Tol West is in the manabase - if you don't want to run it, which land are you going to swap for it?

    Coalition Relic is just about the same problem as Signets/Mana Rocks, as far as Engineered Explosives goes. Almost all Legacy threats are not CMC 0 (why Chrome Mox will most likely dodge Eng Exp) - a lot of Legacy threats are at CMC 1, 2, and some at 3 as well. It's the nature of balance in the cards. No one cares about Memnite, it's the Cranial Plating that gets you.
    I'd add another Trop and/or Flooded Strand/Misty Rainforest in the proposed build. You need more green without giving up blue. Mana Vortex and Winter Orb are going to make this deck very 'clunky' early.

    P.S. I don't think this deck can play an Explosives at 3, realistically. Basically, whole deck resides there. Using EE to blow up 1 card is almost always going to set you back worse. Relic is about your best option (unless you want to play Darksteel Ingot) to give you a mana advantage about every other turn (Tap on opponent's turn to get 2 mana on yours).

  13. #2733

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    I'd add another Trop and/or Flooded Strand/Misty Rainforest in the proposed build. You need more green without giving up blue. Mana Vortex and Winter Orb are going to make this deck very 'clunky' early.
    This is such a minor suggestion that can only be confirmed by playtesting, anyway. It's not really suggesting a new, potentially better card, so much as tuning a deck that's never been played. Ghostfire, if he throws the deck together, will make that determination; it's not up to us backseat drivers to tell him how to use his blinker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Bear View Post
    P.S. I don't think this deck can play an Explosives at 3, realistically. Basically, whole deck resides there. Using EE to blow up 1 card is almost always going to set you back worse. Relic is about your best option (unless you want to play Darksteel Ingot) to give you a mana advantage about every other turn (Tap on opponent's turn to get 2 mana on yours).
    I'm going to leave that up to Ghostfire, again. I've never played a CMC 3 mana rock in legacy, and I strongly suspect it's simply not viable.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  14. #2734
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    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by frogger42 View Post
    This is such a minor suggestion that can only be confirmed by playtesting, anyway. It's not really suggesting a new, potentially better card, so much as tuning a deck that's never been played. Ghostfire, if he throws the deck together, will make that determination; it's not up to us backseat drivers to tell him how to use his blinker.



    I'm going to leave that up to Ghostfire, again. I've never played a CMC 3 mana rock in legacy, and I strongly suspect it's simply not viable.
    Once the holidays are done I'll be proxyung some decks together for testing.

  15. #2735

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Armageddon and lock pieces always paired great with planeswalkers.

    Are planewalkers the missing piece needed to make this strategy viable? If so, white is about to get an awesome planeswalker.

    Serra the Benevolent
    WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
    +2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
    -3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
    -6: You get an emblem with "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."


  16. #2736

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Armageddon and lock pieces always paired great with planeswalkers.

    Are planewalkers the missing piece needed to make this strategy viable? If so, white is about to get an awesome planeswalker.

    Serra the Benevolent
    WW2, 4 Loyalty Planeswalker
    +2: Creature you control with flying get +1/+1 until end of turn.
    -3: Creature a 4/4 Angel Creature token w/ Flying and Vigilance
    -6: You get an emblem with "If you control a creature, damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead."

    Sounds promising. I remember playing hero of bladehold. It was great if it didnt eat removal. I bet this one is bettter!

  17. #2737

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Court of Grace seems fantastic here.

    Just wondering if this deck's strategy could potentially make a comeback. Lots of goodies printed recently.

    Can Emeria's Call be discarded to Mox Diamond? If so, Emeria's Call is an autoinclude.

    Chalice, Trini and Armageddon/Ravages/Cataclysm, Wasteland+Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Flagstones, Tabernacle, Karakas are all still amazing cards. Cataclysms ability to boardwipe all planeswalkers makes it better than ever imo.

  18. #2738

    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Court of Grace seems fantastic here.

    Just wondering if this deck's strategy could potentially make a comeback. Lots of goodies printed recently.

    Can Emeria's Call be discarded to Mox Diamond? If so, Emeria's Call is an autoinclude.

    Chalice, Trini and Armageddon/Ravages/Cataclysm, Wasteland+Crucible, Ghostly Prison, Flagstones, Tabernacle, Karakas are all still amazing cards. Cataclysms ability to boardwipe all planeswalkers makes it better than ever imo.
    Emeria's Call is a Sorcery, so doesn't work with Diamond.

    Cataclysm is great. I also ran it with Suppression Field, which is pretty flipping great, though tricky with SFM. Though there's also a new 3/3 flying sort of SFM in Commander Legends.

    Armageddon I think is terrible, really. RUG Delver is probably the top tier deck. Snowko gets by with 3-4 mana (Oko/Uro) so they can really minimize the effect of losing all lands. IDK if Angel Stompy is where you want to be quite honestly.
    Final Ritual: "I was your round 14 opponent with the 3 giant goyfs. I didn't know what the fuck you were piloting."
    Drunken Master strategy. If I don't know what I'm doing, how would you?

  19. #2739
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    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    I loved this deck back in the day, but at this point I think Thalia Stompy is just the better version. Geddon and Staxx are too slow.

  20. #2740
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    Join Date

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    Re: [Deck] Armageddon Stax

    This Bosh N Roll video shows white Stax has potential again, thanks to Urza's Saga. Crucible returning Saga is a thing that makes Crucible look good again, even when you can't Wastelock opponent.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZmeHa4zk4w

    The donation list has some weird combo with Drannith Magistrate and Uba Mask that just got boarded out every game, because the deck is already too grindy with minimal card selection. Drannith Magistrate is a cute maindeck hate piece vs Uro and Ragavan but performed pretty badly in the other matchups.

    The deck seems good at abusing Saga and doing the whole Smokestack thing. Cutting Geddon seems bad in the matchups where opponents stabilized against Tangle Wire/Stax/3sphere, so I'm adding it back in. The lack of wincons and card draw is also a problem so +1 Court of Grace. Tangle Wire and Bridge both help keep Monarch (Ghostly Prison helps even more), so Court can snowball out of control quickly.

    1-of Hex Parasite lets you remove counters from Urza's Saga to keep it at Chapter 2. It also removes counters from Smokestack if the opponent stops playing lands, so you don't have to suicide your Smokestack and can just keep it out at 0 preventing the opponent from playing Magic again.



    //Lands: 27
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Wasteland
    3 Urza's Saga
    3 Flagstones of Trokair
    7 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    //Artifacts: 26
    3 Mox Diamond
    1 Mox Opal
    1 Hex Parasite
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Sphere of Resistance
    4 Tangle Wire
    3 Trinisphere
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    3 Smokestack

    //Enchantments: 1
    1 Court of Grace

    //Spells: 2
    2 Armageddon

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Sundial of the Infinite
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    3 Walking Ballista
    3 Thought-Knot Seer
    2 Ghostly Prison


    I found 4x Sphere of Resistance maindeck odd. With such a high curve, it risks punishing this deck even more if opponent wastes the turn 1 sol land. But is there a better 2nd play off a single sol land (after Chalice)? The Winter Orb plan seems bad with Urza's Saga. Maybe it should be Sorcerous Spyglass or be boarded out for Spyglass/Ballista against Wasteland decks. T1 Sphere is good to curve with Urza's Saga, which can then make early constructs while neither player can cast many spells.

    Sundial of the Infinite is weird tech you can activate on upkeep to duck your own Smokestack/Tangle Wire/Urza's Saga chapter triggers in grindy matchups to keep them oppressing the opponent forever (at the cost of your draw step). It can also counter combat tricks and removal on your attacking Constructs or things the opponent tries to do on your EOT. It has potential in some long games but seems conditional enough to leave in the SB for now.

    The deck is pretty much colorless, so there is also the potential to play it in blue instead with 4x Emry, Lurker of the Loch and 2x Sai, Master Thopterist. Both seem amazing at sustaining Smokestack and generating card advantage by rebuying lock pieces or sacrificing extra ones for value.

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