On paper, yes, in practice, no. Once Land Grant SI is disrupted, it tends to lose regardless. Aggro-control or control gains the upper hand if it can counter a mana source and Time Walk into Counterbalance or Meddling Mage. You don't use Land Grant SI because it's good against control, you use Land Grant SI because it's fast and it supports Goblin Charbelcher. The 8 Spirit Guides just make the deck faster and protect your mana sources from Daze.Originally Posted by TeKo
Game 1 the deck goes all in, game 2/3 the deck can walk a fine line between going all in and baiting with Xantid Swarm and Goblin Charbelcher. The deck isn't even that much more committal, since you aren't obligated to use Summoner's Pact, you just can't keep bad hands against aggro and block like you use to.
If you want a better game against control, I think you have to play SITES with Kobolds, where uncounterable land drops and threats give you better odds.
Edit: Also, I think the Pact list's access to green mana for Xantid Swarm can't be under sold, compared to Cabal Therapy, Unmask and Pact of Negation, it's the most efficient disruption card of the lot. Between 4 ESG, 4 Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox with 18 targets, you can usually cast it and protect your Land Grant.
That makes some sense, I didnt see Dryad Arbor when looking in your list at first, so I guess there are more creatures than I thought. Im still not sure Id do 4 Culling the Weak, but if it works for you I guess go for it.
So you Pact for Swarm, play it, then, on your next turn, produce 2GG and combo off?
4 ESG, 4 Lotus Petal and 4 Chrome Mox (12+ Green Cards to imprint)
= more green mana sources than the "standard" BG list plays.
Originally Posted by Pinder
Turns out that some weird chemical reaction between the Twinkie filling and Ranch Dressing opens up a portal straight into Hell, through which the Devil is then able to shit directly into your mouth.
No, the deck has 4 Xantid Swarms to cast post SB, it just uses Pact to tutor for a Xantid Swarm when it's in the middle of chaining Draw 4s to sacrifice to Culling the Weak. Pact produces G mana when its imprinted on Chrome Mox, so the deck has 4 Land Grant, 1 Bayou, 1 Dryad Arbor, 4 Elvish Spirit Guide and 7 other green imprint targets to cast a single Xantid Swarm. The 4 Elvish Spirit Guide make it easier to cast Xantid Swarm than the original deck could cast Cabal Therapy, so you can protect your black mana sources from counters better.
@Bovinious
Honest mistake, don't sweat it.
I see, I don't know BG that well, I play BU or BUw.
I've been pondering a few cards for this deck and two cards recently struck me.
1) Plunge into Darkness: in the traditional builds with a sizeable number of Robots, you gain the option of turning superflus Robots into life/ tutor power instead of exclusively using them for Therapy/ Culling of the Weak, and digging into a vital card can be as good as landing a draw 4 in certaint situations. Not sugesting it over draw 4s, but as something to mull over in general (on a general note, you can let the cards on the stack resolve and drop the Robot weight from your hand before playing Plunge, but is there any risk behind that that I fail to see?).
2) Promise of Power: Worst comes to worst it's a draw 5, but in better situations it's an alternate win condition that's more friendly with the original deck framework than Tombstalker/ Avatar of Discord.
Also, how much of the deck would be ideal to dedicate to mana production? To drawing cards? Is an Ill-Gotten Gains loop really needed or am I just too fond of it? Could Intuition fit into the deck, or would you rather have more draw (Meditate, maybe Promise of Power)?
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
You have no answer for Countertop. To be honest man, I really like your creativity but, all you have done to the deck is make it that much worse against a Chalice at 0. You also have no answer for Meddling Mage in the SB and no Empty the Warrens in the main. Also, IGG #2 has to be in the main, it lets you win a lot of games in which you shouldn't. I am not even going to start in on playing with the Pacts, as there have been a lot of discussions on this board already but in short they don't belong in SI. Now, in Flash, I understand the green pact, in High Tide I can understand Pact of Negation, but why would you take a deck, in particular a deck that is the fastest in the format, and make it more vulnerable to decks that are already really good against it? Xantid Swarm is also really bad, Cabal Therapy/Duress is a lot better. If you opponent resolves Countertop Xantid Swarm has almost no effect against a control player who knows what they are doing!
I don't think you really understand the SI vs Threshold match up, if you let them resolve Counterbalance or Meddling Mage, then you are going to lose any way. The only way you can really deal with Counterbalance or Meddling Mage is to win the game before they resolve.
Being worse against Chalice at 0 is sort of irrelevant, over the course of a three game match, I'm going to win game one, and even if I lose game 2, I'm going to be on the play game 3. That said, I'm in a better position to deal with Chalice of the Void than the original version, because I can resolve Oxidize in the SB thru' ESG and I have 6 non 0cc creatures for Culling the Weak.
Xantid Swarm is a lot better than Cabal Therapy in Pact SI, because Xantid Swarm is easier to cast with ESG.
Pact SI isn't worse against the original SI's bad match ups, Pact SI is faster and it's Daze proof.
Also, it's not like the SB is set in stone.
I've been goldfishing the pact SI list for a few times. And I'm allready going of T1 on regular basis. yet i wonder if some MD protection isn't needed?
Any imput on this?
From my testing, the fastest version is very similar to the ancient lists, with Glimpse of Nature in the place of Diabolic Intent (that version also makes conventional clocks almost irrelevant, meaning the opponent needs something backbreaking even for your bad draws). The Pact version doesn't even come close.
ESG allowing one to play around daze just makes it bad instead of horrible.
Hey guys,
In the weekend I played my first and second tournament with SI and i would like to thank you all for sharing your decklists and for the good discussions about SI.
I won the first tournament playing this list:
MB:
2 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Phyrexian Walkers
4 Shieldsphere
2 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain
1 Spoils of the vault
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher
SB
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Naturalize
3 Smothers
Obviously is the spoils of the vault replacing my 4th cruel bargain that i don't have yet.
Standard sideboard, didn't have any experience with other sideboard hate so the list is pretty standard except the 3 smother's, i had 3 slots left and didn't knew where to use them for, until i found my pox side board and decided that smothers where better than nothing..
Short tournament summary:
Utrecht, 12-4-08 (Holland)
R1 - Elves
I lost the first round, due to Thorn mainboard, but keeping that one in mind I played first the next game and won, last game I boared naturalize's in and won again.
2-1
R2 - Elves
I won game 1, lost game 2 won game 3 in turn 1.
2-1
R3 - burn
I won 2-0 goldfishing all along
R4 - 43 land
I won game one in the second turn, game 2 i lost to Thorn and I boarded confidants in what was kind of a mistake. but i won the last round by letting my opponent play so i could drew an extra card and won turn 1
2-1
R5 - goblins
Game 1 i won with ease in turn 1.
Second game i was worried for a turn 2 chalice but than piledriver came :)
I won in the second turn.
2-0
Mol, 13-4-2008 (belgium)
R1 - Ub??
I won the first game t1 only saw an island and a brainstorm, i thought it was MUC so boarded 4 xantid swarms in.
Second game i was suprised to see my opponent playing an underground sea and duressing me, but that didn;t do the job and I won in my turn 2 after he played a confidant.
2-0
R2 - ********
Well kinda lost 2-0 for getting crucial things countered while trying to combo off...
R3 - goblins
I knew what my opponent was playing so I kept a semi-bad hand, knewing that i had 3-4 turn to draw bombs...
I only drew shit so i lost the first match..
The second match i kept a semi-bad hand to, i maneged to stall him to turn 5 by blocking his 2 lackeys with walls but i only drew shit so i lost :(
yeah yeah i know, shame on me, i should have won that one.
0-2
R4 - Tes
He made a small error by accidantly revealing a brainstorm while shuffeling, so my first cabal therapy was nameing fow, obviously missing and giving me the info that he was playing tes..
The second was was naming dark ritual but ofcourse he brainstormed it away and that was just fool play from my side.
I won the game 2-1 simply be being faster, but had a nice chat with my opponent and both dropping dark confidants game 2:)
R5 - Fish
I won with ease game one, but lost the second game to chalice.
Third game i played a chrome mox t1 having 2 mana with a bayou and a naturalize in my hand and was simply building my hand.
He played a chalice for 1 and a chalice for 0 the second turn but by naturalizing his chalice 1 and me having enough fuel to powerup the engine i won in my next turn.
R6 - Doran with confi's, goyf's etc...
I lost game one after 1 dures and 1 hymn by comboing of asap, i played a tendrills for 20, couldn't storm for more but that @#@%#$% played a swords on his tarmogoyf gaining some lifes, he ending up with 2 lives me on 31 and empty handed.
But shortly played an other goyf hitting my for 5 every turn and me ofcourse didn't have any chance...
Second game i won by using belcher, couldn't storm he enough due to a leyline and only having cabal rituals.
Third game I lost too don't know why
So I ended up playing 3-3 on 50 man tournament ending up as 30st.
Now something completely different,
Is manamorphose making worth the cut/risk to play in any SI deck?
Giving possible color fix when used with SSG, ESG, ETW, free storm and draw.
But not acually giving any netto mana, an infestment of 2 and only hurting you when daze-ed?
Greetings,
Michel
PS I only played like 5 games with my SI in real live, before i played my first tournament with it... It actually plays much and much better than MWS, I had to muligan less and fizzeld less, and at first i didn't believed the shuffeler is crap, but i really sucks monkey balls, so i would recommend you to proxie any combo deck and than goldfish it, because it actually plays out better.
Last edited by chocomel; 04-14-2008 at 12:45 PM.
Congratulations on the good results. It looks like your list is missing 4 cards. Cabal Therapy?
Goblin Charbelcher and Xantid Swarm in the SB are SBed in against counters/stifle.
@Iranon
Isn't Glimpse of Nature just win more? I never got how it was suppose to make the deck go faster, it just stopped the Draw 4 chain from wiping if you had G mana open when I ran it. Do you cut the win conditions for ESG so you can cast it easier or something?
I also played SI in a tournament over the weekend, although I didn't do very well. I'm just afraid that it's a bad choice for the current metagame, at least for the New England metagame, which is riddled with Dragon Stompy and Dreadstill. Anyway, here's a short report:
My list:
2 Bayou
4 Land Grant
4 D Rit
4 C Rit
4 Culling
4 LED
4 Chrome
4 Petal
3 SSG
4 Sphere
4 Walker
4 I Tutor
4 I Contract
4 C Bargain
2 IGG
2 Tendrils
2 EtW
1 Belcher
SB:
4 Therapy
4 Duress
4 Urami
3 Tombstalker
Round 1 - RWGB Zoo
Game 1 I kill him first turn with IGG loop. Game 2 I do not sideboard. He opens with Thoughtseize followed by Cabal Therapy, flashback Therapy, get down a Pyro Pillar. I mini Tendrils, but it isn't enough. Game 3 I am on the play and have a very good hand. I accelerate into a D4, another D4, another D4, another D4. I am left at 1 life, BBR in pool, Petal and LED on the board, and nothing to play. Burn to death (inconceivable!). I drew 16 cards in this game and never found a Tendrils/EtW/Belcher/I Tutor. I lose the match while my opponent did not have a turn in 2 out of the 3 games.
Round 2 - Dragon Stompy
Game 1 I win the roll and play first. I dump 16 goblins on the table turn 1. He can't stop 'em. Game 2 I do not sideboard. He plays first and goes Ancient Tomb, SSG, Trinisphere. I scoop 'em up. Game 3 I'm on the play and I go Land Grant, Chrome Mox, I Tutor finding second LED. On my second turn I can do I Tutor/2 LED loop for the win as long as he does not play Trinisphere on his first turn again, but he does. Lose.
Round 3 - UGB Threshold type deck
Game 1 he counters an early spell or Thoughseizes or something, gets down a blind Counterbalance, but no Top. He does not draw a creature ever, I rebuild slowly and Tendrils for lethal.
Game 2 I bring in all 15 SB cards. I get a turn 2 or 3 Urami token and he goes the distance. Win. I am very pleased with the performance of this sideboard against blue-based control. Dreadstill might not be included in this, as they have a much faster clock, but it may still be the best option.
Round 4 - Angry Beavers (BG Dredge Goyf deck)
Game 1 he doesn't do anything I care about and I win quickly.
Game 2 (no board) he Thoughtseizes, but then doesn't do anything else to disrupt me. I win quickly again.
Round 5 - Slivers
Game 1 I don't really remember, but I lose. Stifle maybe? Game 2 I bring in all 15. I get a fairly early Tombstalker, followed by a Urami. They meet some resistance with flying Slivers, but they get through for the win. Game 3 he tells me he's bringing his STPs back in, and I know I should go back to my original build, but it's been a long day and I'm not in contention, so I just say screw it. I drop an early Urami, which gets Swordsed. I lose.
Overall, I would say the deck performed pretty well. There were just a couple things that didn't go my way. I didn't get to play Dreadstill, which is too bad because I want to see how that matchup goes. From my testing I think it would go very very badly, but you can never really tell.
The list is either missing 4 Therapy or 4 Serum Powder. I've been feeding people 4 Serum Powder lists recently, so it possible it could have been Powder. It seems like Powder would have been mentioned in the report though.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
B.C. aren't you making a serious mistake of playing 4 Bayou and 2 Land Grant? I'd play 4 Land Grant and 2 Bayou. Of course, I don't know, so please explain :D
The reason why I'm concerned is that you often deal nonlethal damage with Belcher. That's why.
Other than that, props on that tournament. Well played!
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
editet; ofcourse 4 cabal therapy's :)
Yeah, sorry. It was actually 4 Land Grant, 2 Bayou. I've fixed it in the decklist. I've made that mistake before on tournament reports.
Fair enough, it was just, it's been a while since I quitted playing SI due to the very large presence of threshold in my meta. So I was just confused if this change was some new sort of tech :P
"You're English is terrible and inconsistent."
-DownSyndromeKarl
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