Nice job tweaking the list with those splashs... just wonder why not putting the Salvation list on the first post, since in my opinion it's faster than any of those... anyway...
What's the next name going to be? CSI? xD
I finished testing Burning Wish and the card wasn't working as well as I had hoped it would. Even after replacing the artifact creatures with the Kobolds, I still couldn't get the 4RR needed to cast Burning Wish into Empty the Warrens with out Lion's Eye Diamond. I decided that Simian Spirit Guide was needed in order to facilitate Badlands, Kobolds of Khe Keep, Culling the Weak, Simian Spirit Guide and then either Burning Wish into Cruel Bargain or Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal into Empty the Warrens.
After an additional round of testing, I ended up with a permutation of SITES that I feel is stronger than the original. The presence of Empty the Warrens forces the opponent to counter the rituals, and Simian Spirit Guide protects the rituals from Daze while setting back the opponent's Meddling Mage or Tarmogoyf a turn. Burning Wish is just a superior tutor to Infernal Tutor, because it's a self contained threat that the opponent must counter in order to prevent either an Empty the Warrens or Cabal Therapy from the SB. Also, the original SITES had a critical weakness against Stifle on the draw, because even tho' the deck could draw upwards of 16 cards before casting an Empty the Warrens or Infernal Tutor, Stifle still won the game for the opponent unless I could cast 2 Storm spells, which is a tall order.
The list ended up as SITES -4 Infernal Tutor, -1 Ill Gotten Gains, -1 Cruel Bargain (SB) -8 artifacts creatures for +4 Burning Wish, +2 Tendrils of Agony, +8 Koblds and the deck started to click, but the Tendrils of Agony were dead weight now that Chrome Mox imprints Kobolds for red mana. I ended up cutting two of the three Tendrils of Agony for Infernal Tutors, and at that point I decided to just say "fuck it" and cut a Kobold and a land for the other Infernal Tutors.
I ended right back at Iranon's list -1 Ill Gotten Gains and -1 Kobold for +2 Simian Spirit Guide. I feel that Ill Gotten Gains is just a crutch against aggro, and even then, you can still set it up with Burning Wish if you need to.
This deck is literally Threshold's worst nightmare, they have to mulligan into Force of Will on the draw thanks to your speed, they can't count on Daze on the play thanks to your Simian Spirit Guide, they can't count on Stifle on the play thanks to Draw 4's, they can't count on Engineered Explosives on the draw thanks to being able to cast it for 10+ storm and or on the play game 2 thanks to SB 2 of them out for 2 more Tendrils.
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I really like the blue splash. I'm playing the Quasi SI and I love this version. Although I have a hard time with Meddling Mage, I'm going off on turn two more than 90% of the games. If I'm playing second that can become a problem. The red splash is kinda hard with the deck, and it's hard to get an 17 storm count to make Brain Freeze worthy.
I was thinking on a wish SB, with DeathWish, and silver bullets, like Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Slaughter Pact, Massacre, Infest, Empty the Warrens, Badlands
The SITES list you put up has a total of 8 Infernal Tutors, what are the four extra supposed to be?
Infernal Contract is notably absent.
That explains it well enough.
Yep, 4 of those Tutors should be Contracts. All fixed now, but this just goes to show, that even I can make a mistake every couple years.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
What's the correct SBing for the Man Plan? As of now I'm going -4 Infernal Tutor -4 Draw4, -2 IGG, -1 belcher, -1 Tendrils, +4 Avatar of Discord, +4 Tomb of Urami, +4 Vampiric Spirit. Is this the correct Sbing, or is there a more efficient way?
Well, I haven't used it for awhile, but you're correct. It depended on the exact maindeck you used and the matchup though. I abandoned the man plan due to it being marginally better in only a few matchups and singificantly worse in several others. I don't even play the old list anymore as I haven't see a meta develop for it. I've been playing QSI variants lately.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Kobolds would probably enable a better translation into B/R, but when I tried that aggro/control matchups became worse, as kobolds can't chump as well as the arti creatures. On the other hand, they pitch to mox whereas arti creatures don't. Perhaps 4/4 split? Can be pretty useful when you can't go off on first turn after a draw 4, and lay a creature to avoid discarding and to block lackeys.
On another note, I really favour the version that splashes blue, but I'm not really sold on brainstorm due to it turning out to be a relatively dead card in certain situations, such as when you lack shuffle effects or when their effects overlap with draw 4s.
Another problem with the blue splash is the lack of tutors, meaning there is actually a rather noticeable statistical chance of fizzling while trying to chain draw4s. It needs to be more consistent, especially as it gives up some speed for resiliency. Even with 12 draw 4s and 4 brainstorms, there is still a good enough statistical chance of fizzling while chaining. This is assuming brainstorm is not always cast at the end of a chain (ie when there are no other draw4s left or when there is no mana left for draw4 + tendrils) because any other situation would be sub-optimal. Has anyone found a way around that in blue SI? It is in my opinion the best version of SI around, but I'm thinking it still lacks one more piece to complete its puzzle. Plus, unlike usage of tutors and black draw4s, fizzling a chain with meditates being used = next game.
I actually have tested the blue SI deck for quite a while. Few hundred games, but not under tourney pressure. SI has great matchups with aggro in general, but suffers against threshold and other heavy aggro-control decks with short clock, especially after sb if they bring in more stifles. Prison decks eat SI alive most of the time, barring broken turn 1 wins, turn 2 latest, but those decks are rarer. I think most people who have tested this deck rigorously understand how to play the selected versions, so why hasn't it posted results on at least a semi-consistent basis?
When are you trying to go off and what is your criteria for a hand that can go off? It sounds like you are playing incorrectly because I have found that blue aggro-control is actually a pretty stellar matchup that is heavily in my favor. Likewise, I haven't lost to Prison (Sun Tower or Armageddon Stax) in a very long time. I think with proper sideboarding and play these difficulties that you're having can be overcome. Additionally, I cast Brainstorms quite a bit, and definitely over black draw4s a good portion of the time.
Furthermore, how do you lose to stifle? Everytime I go off I can either double Tendrils or Therapy for Stifle. Postboard I bait with Empty the Warrens for a few tokens quite often to apply minor pressure. Perhaps you are forcing the issue too early against control and not properly optimizing. Can you post hands/play situations with your analysis so I can see how you play?
I don't play the deck in tournaments. I play Sun Tower or Grim Iggy. This is a pet project of mine that I test continuously. Right now, I prefer Grim Iggy when I play combo in most metas, although QSI and Grim Iggy are becoming rather blurred as I reach conclusions on what I like best for my playstyle. In any event, I almost always audible into RG Stax because I still think it's the best deck in the format when properly metagamed.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I'm not denying that blue SI is probably the best version, even though I guess the tone of my post suggested otherwise.
As for when I try to go off, generally with 2 draw 4s, at least one ritual, one critter and 1 initial mana source minimum. That way, 2 draw 4s are guaranteed, while hitting a tutor/culling fuels the rest and so on.
I always run 4 x therapies too. When I get them, I usually bring it home, barring an unlucky fizzle. The problem is, do you mull against an aggro/control deck for a therapy? If you had a hand that was 2 x brainstorm, meditate, mox, contract, therapy and dark rit, it isn't a bad hand, but if you keep, you would basically be forced to throw the therapy to rit (meaning almost dead if fow), pitch a brainstorm, needing to hit an initial mana source within next 3, or pitch the contract and hope to topdeck either a black draw4, or a blue source that allows eot medi. Even if the mox were a petal for instance, which is a pretty common hand, a fow on the draw 4 leaves us in topdeck mode. I often get screwed by mage/duress at times too. I mean it isn't a complete picture, but that is kinda why thresh etc have decent game agains tthis deck at least. Fow/stifle means you need to remove two answers and play cautiously against daze as well.
Expanding on the above issue, this deck needs to cast draw4s in order to force the control issue. Random topdecks do win games for SI, but the way the deck is put together also means that topdecking usually means no draw4 bombs when those in your hand are countered (deck runs a lot of accel, but the % of draw4s is not high enough for a 50% topdeck rate, meaning you would be helpless for a couple turns at least).
As for the prison matchup, 3sphere plus CotV at 0/1/3 kills the deck. The latter is still possible, but any sort of clock means 3sphere = good game 99% of the time.
I have also been going for brain freeze quite a lot in game2, as well as a confidant/lowcc manplan against control in game2. Works decently well, but any other tech worth listening to against control matchups? Oh and I saw the primer on sun tower. Pretty nifty deck.
The solution:
mox imprinting meditate, brainstorm. If you hit another mana source you can rit into draw4 and pass. Otherwise, you have another brainstorm next turn that will dig 2 cards deeper. If you get an initial mana source, you have brainstorm to help you out in the event of fow on draw4.
You run 11 draw4s, 4 cabal therapy (8 virtual copies), 4 brainstorm, 4 tendrils preboard. That makes 27 things to do. If they FoW 1 draw4 you now have 26 things to do. In a 60 card deck where you start with 7 cards in hand, there is no only a great chance you already have a second card to play, but if there isn't, it would not be uncommon to topdeck one every other turn.
Against prison you drop fast mana turn 1 if you have it. Then you don't break fetches until you need to when under chalice/3sphere to enable you to bounce the 3sphere when necessary. You have 17 sources to hit three mana (actually, more in SITES since you can RFG SSG) to cast ETruth/H.recall/Rebuild. Additionally, you will almost always brainstorm or draw4 turn 1 to increase the liklihood of you seeing the 3 mana necessary. Additionally, if 3sphere does not come down, you can very likely win turn 2.As for the prison matchup, 3sphere plus CotV at 0/1/3 kills the deck. The latter is still possible, but any sort of clock means 3sphere = good game 99% of the time.
As to prison with a clock, such a deck doesn't exist. 5/3 is rarely played (and heavily inconsistent when it is, mulling itself out of the potential for turn 1 trinisphere most often), Faerie Stompy doesn't run Trinisphere, and very old white stax lists can go turbo exalted angel turn 2 after a trinisphere, but even that could be played around with Rebuild with a marginal hand.
I haven't been playing brain freeze much recently postboard. I bring in ETW and force control to deal with draw4s (specifically meditate), etw, therapy, and confidant en route to mini tendrils.I have also been going for brain freeze quite a lot in game2, as well as a confidant/lowcc manplan against control in game2. Works decently well, but any other tech worth listening to against control matchups? Oh and I saw the primer on sun tower. Pretty nifty deck.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I understand your solution. The thing I wanted to illustrate was that SI hinges a lot on its first draw4, because those are the only things that generate real card advantage, and which dig the deepest. Even storming twice gives the opponent 1-2 turns to find a counter to the draw4, which is why I sometimes tend to aggressively go for the first draw4, which also compounds the problem I tried to illustrate with the above example.
I agree and I understand. Just playing a little devil's advocate when saying that SI is almost always about the first draw4. Not always, but majority of the time. Tendrils is often not really a good topdeck early game though, even though I guess it does make good mox fodder.If they FoW 1 draw4 you now have 26 things to do. In a 60 card deck where you start with 7 cards in hand, there is no only a great chance you already have a second card to play, but if there isn't, it would not be uncommon to topdeck one every other turn.
To be honest, I was making that point with 5/3 in mind. I understand the inconsistencies of mulling for a 3sphere, but with 4 x 3sphere and 4 x CotV, anyone of those could conceivably wreck a game.As to prison with a clock, such a deck doesn't exist. 5/3 is rarely played
When going etw postboard, how often are you mana screwed for red, seeing petals are almost always needed for other uses when chaining draw4s and brainstorms? I often found myself wanting a 4/4 split between arti critters and red ones when I went for etw game 2, even though I board in 3 max in case I need to revert to tendrils.
I would always brainstorm over draw4, because if I brainstorm and it gets forced I am still even on cards, and, importantly, have plays next turn. If I draw4 and it fails due to counters, then I'm left sitting with no plays at all. Furthermore, brainstorms have always been less likely to get forced than draw4s for me, probably because you are seen also investing a ritual into the draw4.
Often, I find the first draw4 is for setup. It gives me extra but not really want I exactly need to go off. What it does is setup another draw4 or brainstorm, which gives me the critical to go off. Now, draw4s into 4x guys happens sometimes (unlikely, but I've done it), you just have to go with it. That's actually not all that bad since it gives you time to setup. The tall men buying a few turns is one of the reasons to play SI over Belcher.I agree and I understand. Just playing a little devil's advocate when saying that SI is almost always about the first draw4. Not always, but majority of the time. Tendrils is often not really a good topdeck early game though, even though I guess it does make good mox fodder.
I don't find myself completely wrecked by a single chalice often. This is largely dependent on my opening hand, but the last several times I've had chalice played against me I've won handily. I haven't tested against 5/3 in awhile since I've never actually seen someone else playing it in a tourney. I generally test against RG Stax, W Stax, and Faerie Stompy for prison.To be honest, I was making that point with 5/3 in mind. I understand the inconsistencies of mulling for a 3sphere, but with 4 x 3sphere and 4 x CotV, anyone of those could conceivably wreck a game.
When I board in ETW, I generally keep in at minimum 3 Tendrils and find other things to board out. I generally fetch my badlands and use it. I don't tend to chain together all at once, especially postboard as you are more prone to fizzling. I'd rather ETW for 6-12 tokens, then spend another turn attacking, drawing 4, maybe play a mini tendrils, and keep going. I try to win small.When going etw postboard, how often are you mana screwed for red, seeing petals are almost always needed for other uses when chaining draw4s and brainstorms? I often found myself wanting a 4/4 split between arti critters and red ones when I went for etw game 2, even though I board in 3 max in case I need to revert to tendrils.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
To be honest, I haven't noticed the difference between having blockers and not having blockers, because once Combo reaches draw go against aggro-control the game is just as good as lost. The Kobolds can still stop aggro-control from "countering" a Draw 4 thru' their damage for a turn, and imprinting them for red has won me more games than not.
As an aside, I made a minor improvement to the mana base.
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
1 Dryad Arbor
The deck can go, Wooded Foothill->Dryad Arbor, Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox/b and then Culling the Weak on the first turn to combo with Draw 4's or just decrease the reliance on the other creatures over all.
It's important to not lose to turn 1 Lackey if you don't win turn 1 against Goblins. If you drop a kobold, it's easily hit by a wide range of removal and lackey can put in stuff that will put unneeded pressure on you. It's important against Goblins to take your time game 1 because with Chalice and Pyrostatic Pillar combined with pressure, game 2 can be make for trouble.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I just noticed that there is a thread for SI. Thanks for finally starting this, emidln. After playing maindeck Cabal Therapy for a long time, I've recently decided to sacrifice protection for speed. Anyway, here is my current list:
4 Land Grant
2 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard (Still really unsure about this)
3 Naturalize
1 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
3 Xantid Swarm
I know this post is a little thin, but that's because I don't have a lot of time right now. I'll read the whole thread more thoroughly and edit this post with more details as soon as I can.
SITES goes off on the first turn so often tho' that it's almost a moot point. I could see those blockers being useful in the second game, but the best answer to losing the second game in the combo vs aggro match up is to just win game three. The Kobolds are just more efficient than the artifact creatures in "goldfishing," and I'd rather run a more efficient combo deck than a combo deck that can block. I'll admit that the artifact creatures let the deck keep "bad" hands against aggro, but that feels like a crutch to me (albeit a useful one).
Fair enough. I guess the point I was making is that brainstorm is a great setup card, and makes 8 first turn plays with therapy, but after all is said and done the first draw 4 still needs to be cast at some point in time, and will likely be done with an accelerant, and so sculpting a hand with brainstorm gives you a better hand and more fuel for the chain, but also gives an opponent who knows what he is up against more time to answer. Moreover, a case can be made that a brainstorm is actually more efficient without a draw4 left, as a draw4 draws cards that you have already seen with brainstorm. There aren't nearly enough shuffle effects to consistently storm and shuffle. Brainstorming after a draw 4 to setup for next turn does nearly what an eot meditate would do, seeing cards that would be useful as gas and giving an opponent a much tougher choice of whether to counter.I would always brainstorm over draw4, because if I brainstorm and it gets forced I am still even on cards, and, importantly, have plays next turn. If I draw4 and it fails due to counters, then I'm left sitting with no plays at all. Furthermore, brainstorms have always been less likely to get forced than draw4s for me, probably because you are seen also investing a ritual into the draw4.
I feel that mystical tutor deserves a place somewhere, especially as the blue version already gives added consistency. A single card disadvantage is a small price for getting a necessary card to carry on a chain or to go off next turn. It could also become +2CA with a draw4. At least in the sb. I know it has been brought up before, but I think it deserves more thought.
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