Protection is necesarry, no matter how fast the deck is FoW, Daze and more combo hate can still ruin the game for you. Also, I would recomend going up to 8 draw4, because draw4's make it much easier to win, and having multiples is rarely a problem. I also would recomend -1 IGG, +1 Null Profusion, although this oculd be a personal preferance, the only time I use IGG is to randomly win when I have a LED and infernal tutor, and it's always tutored for, so 2 seems redundant. Null profusion just flat out wins when you resolve it, it's rediculous. If you have no hope of casting it, make it mox fodder.Originally Posted by B.C.
I've been playing SI for a year now. The first time I played it against another deck was at the 2006 Legacy World Championships. Before that I had just goldfished a bunch of times. That was also my very first Legacy tournament ever. I went 5-3, finishing in 28th place overall. Through 8 rounds of Swiss, I recorded 8 first turn kills. Here is the list I played that day:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Land Grant
2 Bayou
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
3 Ornithopter
4 Infernal Contract
3 Cruel Bargain
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Diabolic Intent
SB:
3 Tomb of Urami
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Naturalize
The deck played no maindeck disruption, just flat out speed. It was obviously not an optimized list, nor was I an experienced player by any means. I still think that if I would have been a little more prepared for that tournament, I would have made top 8 easily. My only truly deserved loss was to TheInfamousBearAssassin playing Truffle Shuffle. My other two losses were very winnable.
SI is the only Legacy deck I play. Our team is primarily Vintage players, so I don't spend a lot of time tuning the deck or playtesting, but any attention I spend on Legacy is on this deck. I've goldfished this deck (many builds, including the BU version) at least a couple thousand times, and I've taken this deck to at least a half dozen Legacy tournaments with mixed results.
So that's my background with SI. With that being said, here are some of my opinions about card choices and some stuff that has been said up to this point:
Bg Grants vs. Bu Fetches: I go back and forth on this. As stated previously, the Bg version supports Belcher, which is a huge selling point for me. The pros and cons of each build have been pretty well aired, so I'll just say that right now I'm playing Bg, but that could change before Gencon. Everyone's comments have been very helpful so far. I'm not sure if anyone else is bringing this deck to Gencon, but like I said before, it's all I play.
Yes and no. Protection will make some matchups better, some worse. You can certainly win with a build that has no protection, but you're right that Force and Daze can randomly blow you out of games. For a large tournament, I would probably go with the Therapies. This point is debatable, though.
I don't agree with this at all. IGG is a great play in many situations, not just when you're doing the IGGy loop. Many times I have dropped IGG first turn with no hope of going off just to Mindtwist my opponent down to three cards. It's very hard for them to rebuild in time to stop you from going off. As for Null Profusion, I tested this card quite a bit when it came out. I will agree that if it hits the table and you have cards in hand, it's game over. However, it costs a LOT of mana. Enough that the best way to cast it is off of a tutor/LED, which leaves you with no cards in hand. I think there are better uses for that spot. Plus, being able to imprint it on a Mox is a bad consolation prize.
8 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain – Eh. Again, this goes to personal preference. Most people on this thread seem to be running 8, and that's fine. But I think 7 is good too, and I certainly don't feel WRONG for running 7. Same with dropping to 3 Infernal Tutor. Could be ok, could be bad, not really sure.
Street Wraith - I like this card, since SI is an inherently random deck to start with. Unfortunately, this is one of the few instances where the life loss is relevant. VERY relevant sometimes.
Unmask - A pretty good card, but this deck really needs as many cards in hand as possible. Dropping any sort of business for a discard effect doesn't seem right.
Diabolic Intent – In order to run this, you need some Ornithopters. SI has definitely outgrown this card.
As for the sideboard, I still don't have a strong plan for it. My boards usually consist of Naturalize, then some combination of discard and big dudes. I've never gone with the full on "man plan", although I can see how that would be cool. Those of you looking at the "man plan" should consider Tombstalker.
Sideboard cards:
Tomb of Urami – An uncounterable 5/5 flyer for a generally ignorable drawback. Great against control decks, especially since they will have boarded out all their creature hate.
Avatar of Discord – Similar concept to Urami, just not as good. 5/3 flyer that can be countered. Even if he’s not countered, he costs you 2 cards.
Naturalize – Every deck has something they will bring in against storm combo. This will kill a lot of them.
Duress/Cabal Therapy – Discard. Answers counters, Orim’s Chant, Stifle, etc.
Leyline of the Void – Good against a lot of decks, although it’s not as good as it is in Vintage. It kills IGGy Pop and Ichorid, hurts Threshold, LftL decks.
Xantid Swarm – Again, since they’ve probably boarded out most of their creature hate, this little guy will probably survive. No more worrying about counters.
Defense Grid – See Xantid Swarm.
Extirpate – Not great, but could be useful in certain situations.
I guess that's it for now. Unfortunately, I don't really have the expertise to talk about the Bu version in depth. I'll be rocking this deck at I-Con in Springfield, IL this weekend if anyone wants a shot at the title. Keep reaching for those first turn kills.
I see your point on IGG, I never thought to use it as a mindtwist, with that said it works much better than Null Profusion. You seem a lot more experienced than me BC, what would be your sideboard of choice. I've been fiddling with two, the manplan and a semi-standard sb.
Man-Plan
4 Tomb of Urami
4 Avatar of Discord
4 Vampiric Spirit
3 Xantid Swarm/Naturalize
I've been goinbg back and forth with swarm and naturalize, I can't think of too many artifacts/enchantemnts that could be devastating, so right now I'm using swarms. My other Sb is
4 Tomb of Urami
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Naturalize
I like the man-plan more, but it's terrible vs. UGr thresh.
Sideboards for this deck are not something I consider myself an expert in. My sideboard usually consists of a combination of:
Duress
Xantid Swarm
Tomb of Urami
Naturalize
Cabal Therapy (if not maindeck)
Charbelcher (usually just 1 extra)
I've only played the Man Plan a little, but I agree that it can be very good against a lot of decks. As I stated in the previous post, my new favorite guy for Man Plan is Tombstalker. I think he's slightly better than Avatar of Discard, and WAY better than Vampiric Spirit. Personally though, I don't think I would ever have a Man Plan sideboard for a tournament. Man Plan does get you around a lot of hate, though. Cards that no longer bother you that much: Spheres (Trini or Of Resistance), Pyro Pillar, Rule of Law, Challice. The only hate card that still bothers you is Solitary Confinement. That doesn't get played much anymore, though.
In general, I would say that both sideboarding strategies are legitimate. Play whichever one you feel more comfortable with. If I were you, I would always have at least 3 Naturalize in the SB, though, just in case.
Tombstalker is a very good card if SBing creatures. I think the belcher in the sb should be cut, because there is no reason to side it in. SI goldfishes fast enough to run over other combo decks, and boarding it in against control/hate does not solve any existing problems. Xantid/therapy should be present in the sb, with the latter having an extremely good case for the mb. Having 10-12 (8 therapies) cards to battle control after boarding is a great advantage that the B/G build has. At least 1 copy of grip is needed too, for the problem cards that you named. Dark confidants could be used too to increase bombs after sb.
In my opinion, both spheres are the worst SI can play against. At least for sphere, you are able to draw4 and tutor into removal, whereas the spheres cut out acceleration, crippling the deck.
Well you are right trini is crippling to SI. It is a game ender if you have sided in no artifact removal expecting the sphere. But you still have cabal therapy to hopefully stop it even though it is as hard to have a 1st turn cabal therapy. But more to the fact no artifact removal needed in sides for SI are needed. Why? Who runs Trini main or side? Name 2 other than stax.
I agree with you greatly on the new build is a great improvement over to B/G list when dealing with Control. Even though I got a 8 out of 10 1st turn win rate. When I hit control I only ever won by then skin of my teeth and small tendrills'ing 2-3 times.
As for Confidant he is ok SB. I say he is not needed due to the fact that you only have so many permanant mana sources to cast him 2nd turn. Then he drains you life you dearly need. He also makes their 4 swords to plowshares relevant.
Team Funk: The philosopher of the 70's.
Quote of the week: List of Power: God is a 10. Humans are 7's. Monkeys are 6's. Koalas are 8's they are telekenetic and control the weather.
A dreamcatcher works, if your dream is to be gay.
-- Demetri Martin
Most of the time, the other deck will be boarding out their creature removal when they see this deck (unless it's burn), so it's very unlikely that they will leave 4 most-likely dead cards in their maindeck, as they need all the disruption they can get. That is why confidant is a nice SB card.
I tested tombstalker, it's very good in the man-plan. I play it over vampiric spirit, becaise tombstalker has a bit of synergy with avatar of discord, and avatar is better than vampiric spirit anyways.
White players will not if they know what is needed for the deck. Tall men are important so if they usually play swords and know the deck they will most of the times keep them. But they do SB them out if they have better options to combo no doubt.
But on the confi note i do not run him SB just due to the fact that he makes a dead 4 cards if you are playing against R.
Before the switch from B/G SI to B/U I was considerering running Tombstalker side but at that time I had no cruel Bargains so I could not test them. Do you think they are good side? And if so in your opinion how many?
Team Funk: The philosopher of the 70's.
Quote of the week: List of Power: God is a 10. Humans are 7's. Monkeys are 6's. Koalas are 8's they are telekenetic and control the weather.
A dreamcatcher works, if your dream is to be gay.
-- Demetri Martin
How many stax decks are there in this format? You have 5/3, 5/3 with red/white/blue/black splashes, demonstompy, sun tower, and various other decks built to abuse smokestack. 4 x cabal therapy is not enough to combat the spheres and chalices.Well you are right trini is crippling to SI. It is a game ender if you have sided in no artifact removal expecting the sphere. But you still have cabal therapy to hopefully stop it even though it is as hard to have a 1st turn cabal therapy. But more to the fact no artifact removal needed in sides for SI are needed. Why? Who runs Trini main or side? Name 2 other than stax.
As for naming two other decks running spheres other than stax, now that is not a good question is it, seeing as stax is not so much a deck name as a synonym for prison, whether pure prison or aggro-prison. Why not name two other decks using tendrils other than storm-combo?
Well, the U/B version is definitely better, but I've made some changes to my own list that I run, and I sacrificed a couple of first turn plays to increase threat density and speed a little, so it gets almost the best of both worlds.I agree with you greatly on the new build is a great improvement over to B/G list when dealing with Control. Even though I got a 8 out of 10 1st turn win rate.
8/10 first turn kill? Really? Even Long.dec doesn't average a 80% first-turn goldfish.
With 4 x mox and at least 8x land, accelerating into a bob and a draw 4 before passing on the first turn is a great play against control. Most thresh builds (I assume you refer to thresh builds running white) side out stp in any case, but even if they do leave it and stp on their turn, you have effectively set yourself up with a draw 4 on the previous turn, AND you have taken stifle out of the equation. Confidant also pitches to mox, and even if it results in thresh boarding stps in again, it ensures that they make sacrifices to use the stps, meaning less control, less cantrips or less threats. Either way, more time to sculpt a hand.As for Confidant he is ok SB. I say he is not needed due to the fact that you only have so many permanant mana sources to cast him 2nd turn. Then he drains you life you dearly need. He also makes their 4 swords to plowshares relevant.
Pure burn is a tough matchup for SI. There is no way around that.But on the confi note i do not run him SB just due to the fact that he makes a dead 4 cards if you are playing against R.
1 stalker is usually enough. 2 is fine too. No bargains? SI absolutely cannot work without them, especially the U/B version.Before the switch from B/G SI to B/U I was considerering running Tombstalker side but at that time I had no cruel Bargains so I could not test them.
And how many of them are good and/or competitive? None. You are going to run into chalice 10x as often as trinisphere.
Kronicler
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
The same removal works on chalice as well. I can't see the logic behind that statement.And how many of them are good and/or competitive? None. You are going to run into chalice 10x as often as trinisphere.
I play 4 Tombstalker SB for the man-plan, they're 5/5 flyers that come out turns 1-2 and dont die to bolt. I would only recomend them if you're playing the man-plan though, or else Tomb of Urami is better.
Well it happened 80% of the time with foldfishing and it is the same with no disruption (If you are playing against a deck with no disruption then you might as well be goldfishing).And against disruption I pulled a 30/70 in their favor.8/10 first turn kill? Really? Even Long.dec doesn't average a 80% first-turn goldfish.
Had no money thats why and I was goldfishing which is why I had no real tournie matches with it.1 stalker is usually enough. 2 is fine too. No bargains? SI absolutely cannot work without them, especially the U/B version
A deck with R will kill it before you even draw it just becomes a lighning rod against disruption.With 4 x mox and at least 8x land, accelerating into a bob and a draw 4 before passing on the first turn is a great play against control. Most thresh builds (I assume you refer to thresh builds running white) side out stp in any case, but even if they do leave it and stp on their turn, you have effectively set yourself up with a draw 4 on the previous turn, AND you have taken stifle out of the equation. Confidant also pitches to mox, and even if it results in thresh boarding stps in again, it ensures that they make sacrifices to use the stps, meaning less control, less cantrips or less threats. Either way, more time to sculpt a hand
Thank ya for the advice!!I play 4 Tombstalker SB for the man-plan, they're 5/5 flyers that come out turns 1-2 and dont die to bolt. I would only recomend them if you're playing the man-plan though, or else Tomb of Urami is better.
Team Funk: The philosopher of the 70's.
Quote of the week: List of Power: God is a 10. Humans are 7's. Monkeys are 6's. Koalas are 8's they are telekenetic and control the weather.
A dreamcatcher works, if your dream is to be gay.
-- Demetri Martin
I disagree with this statement, burn is a great matchup IMO, they have a 3-4 turn clock, and all you need to do is not be stupid when you draw 4, such as not going down to 5 life when they have RR available, the only problem I've encountered is the unexpected fireblast, but overall it's a favorable matchup.
You are playing the G/B version? With 80% first turn goldfish, you should do a lot better than 30/70 on pure speed alone.Well it happened 80% of the time with foldfishing and it is the same with no disruption (If you are playing against a deck with no disruption then you might as well be goldfishing).And against disruption I pulled a 30/70 in their favor.
That is why you do not sb bob against red aggro/burn, but you sb him against control. Thresh splashing red is not so much of an issue, as them burning bob gives you more time, and he is essential to winning control matchups on tempo/card advantage.A deck with R will kill it before you even draw it just becomes a lighning rod against disruption.
Well, I'm running a version with street wraith in, and that could have compounded my problems against burn, but I can see other situations in which burn could cause problems.I disagree with this statement, burn is a great matchup IMO, they have a 3-4 turn clock, and all you need to do is not be stupid when you draw 4, such as not going down to 5 life when they have RR available, the only problem I've encountered is the unexpected fireblast, but overall it's a favorable matchup.
No matter which version of SI you run, and especially if you run the blue version, you will need at least 2 x draw4s to go off. Blue SI typically goes off turn 2 or 3. A first turn fetchland leaves you at 9 after the first draw4, and at 4 after the second draw4. All the burn player needs to do is to burn you after 1-2 draw4s. With fireblast, chain lightning and bolt around, it should not be a problem dealing enough. It is still very winnable due to SI's speed, but by no means a good matchup/
I just got back from iCon 2k7 and BC and I split in the finals of the Legacy event. I ran Grim Iggy, he was playing B/G/r SI.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
@BC and Emidln: You guys have reports on the tourney? Always like to see combo do well.
I ran the list I posted previously:
4 Land Grant
2 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard:
3 Naturalize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Tomb of Urami
The tournament was 18 people or so, 4 rounds of Swiss, cut to top 8. I got some really lucky matchups in the Swiss:
Round 1 - Richard w/ Mono-White Rebels Life Gain Combo
It was pretty apparent that it was this kid's first Legacy tournament. He was playing unsleaved and wasn't familiar with many of the cards I played. I wasn't worried about winning the match, and he was nice enough, so I didn't push it too hard and gave him a few turns. Game 1 I dropped EtW for 10 guys turn 1 and beat for the win a couple turns later. Game 2 I kept a hand that probably shouldn't have been kept, but still was able to Draw 4 a couple times and win with Belcher on turn 3 or 4.
1-0
Round 2 - Aaron w/ (mostly) Type 2 Mono-Green Stompy
This kid actually ended up with a good enough record to make Top 8 (2-1-1, I believe), but had to drop out of the tournament because he had to get home or something. After the Swiss he told me he played Tendrils combo 3 times and won against 2 of them. Game 1 I got sort of a slow hand, but was able to drop EtW for 14 dudes on turn 4. I was a turn away from attacking for the win, but I was at 5 life due to a couple Draw 4's, when he dropped an Uktabi Drake and buffed it with Might of Old Krosa and flew across to pull out the win. Boo. Game 2 I IGG on turn 1 to Mind Twist him down to 3 cards, then get a Belcher win on turn 3. Game 3 I dumped a bunch of goblins on the table turn 1 or 2 and it was over fast.
2-0
Round 3 - Tim w/ Sligh
At this point I can draw into the top 8, but when I offer my opponent a draw he says "I came to play, I'd rather just play it out". I explain to him that if we draw, we're both definitely in the Top 8, but if we play, the loser might not make it at all. He says "I didn't come here to make Top 8, I came here to play Magic". I smile and say ok, deciding at that point to beat him in the most vicious way possible. Game 1 he plays Mountain, pass. I play Bayou, pass. He plays Mountain, pass. I storm up to ten and Tendrils him for the win on my second turn. Game 2 it doens't even go that long. He play Mountain, pass. I storm up to 15 before I stop counting, I got myself down to one life with 4 Draw 4's, but I ask him if he has a Lightning Bolt or a Shock or something, and he doesn't. I Tendrils him for infinity. That's the match, but I just want to say that this guy was a prick. After game one he said something like "nice deck, you probably just found the list on the internet, right?" After the match, Ogre talked to him and his friends for a while, debating the pros and cons of netdecking (even though I don't feel much like a netdecker with this deck). In any case, he was terrible and I'm glad I beat him viciously.
Round 4 - The Jaker w/ Goblins
ID - We go get some wings from Hooters.
Top 8 - Dave w/ Mono-Black Deadguy Ale Type Deck
I consider this probably the worst matchup for SI. Dave was 2-2, but made Top 8 due to the fact that Aaron (round 2 opponent) had to drop out of the tournament. I curse my luck, but Dave starts talking about how inexperienced he is with the deck, so I think I might have a chance. Game 1 he Duresses first turn, but takes completely the wrong card. I Draw 4, then spend a couple turns getting beat for 2, then win on turn 4 or 5 (I think with goblin tokens, I'm not 100% sure). Game 2 I keep a hand with a lot of acceleration, but no business. I figured I would draw into something, but that doesn't turn out to be true. He beats with Dark Confidants and such for the win. Game 3 I take out my SB cards, reverting to the original list. Turn 1 I storm up to 11, Draw 4 myself down to 2, but never find the finish and have to pass the turn. Turn 2 I get what I need and find Belcher for the win.
Top 4 - Jacob w/ Recruiter Aluren
Game 1 I get a very solid opening hand and drop 18 goblin tokens turn 1 or 2. Win two turns later. Game 2 I side in Therapys and Duresses, which prove to be useful. I Therapy 4 times, taking Aluren, Intuition, Recruiter. He sees NO disruption either game, and I am able to drop 20 goblin tokens on turn 2 or 3 and swing for the win. This win broke a very long losing streak I have with Jacob in tournament play. I think the last time I beat Jacob in a tournament was I-Con 2006. Seriously.
Finals - emidln w/ Grim Iggy
Split - Each of us walks with 2 Force of Will, 2 Taiga.
Conclusions:
- This build is fine, even without maindeck disruption. This was not exactly a rigorous test though, as I was blessed with very favorable matchups.
- I only won with Tendrils twice throughout the whole tournament. I won with EtW five times and Belcher three times.
- I barely used my sideboard at all. There are some matchups where speed is the best thing you can bring to the table.
- It was a good couple of tournaments, and the prizes were ridiculous (especially for Vintage). Thanks to everyone on the organizing side.
I've been testing this deck for two weeks now, and you were indeed incredibly lucky (and with a very undeveloped meta). This deck sucks! I've tested thousands of variations and there's no way to stabilize it. The deck auto-loses to burn, force of will, random hate, and 25% of time to just bad luck. (Of course, faster=lower consistency)
Some comments:
0. 8 robots is not enough. The deck should pack minimum 10.
1. Chrome Mox + robots is HORRIBLE!!! Kobolds at least ensure chrome mox won't be a dead card (and allows Burning Wish/Empty the warrens). The deck should pack minimum 4 kobolds, but it would be better if it could ditch entirely the moxes.
2. 2x Phyrexian Tower is AWESOME!! Consistency++
3. 2-3x Jet Medallion is AWESOME!! Consistency++ (allows for more a chain of Infernal Tutors among other things)
4. 1x Ill-Gotten Gains is enough. Makes room for other, more important cards.
5. 4x Land-Grant is AWESOME!! Consistency++
6. Only alternate draw spell that works is Glimpse of Nature, specially with 11-12 men.
Even then, this deck is so inherently inconsistent and autistic that it's not fun.
0. 8 is enough 10 is too much. Why you want gas or meat and this only helps gas.
1.Yes you could run kobolds but if you fail to combo and need the to block critters, let your 0/1's die.
2. Tower? You cannot fetch it and you cannot land grant like you want.
3. Jet Medallion? Wow you run something that doesn't even help you with much (Gas is either 1 or 2, Meat is 3 black, only would help old version and only a little.)
4. What? are you playing the B/G version?
5. Same thing as above.
6. Same as 4.
Team Funk: The philosopher of the 70's.
Quote of the week: List of Power: God is a 10. Humans are 7's. Monkeys are 6's. Koalas are 8's they are telekenetic and control the weather.
A dreamcatcher works, if your dream is to be gay.
-- Demetri Martin
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