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Thread: The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

  1. #21
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Quirion Ranger is not there just for the wasteland (though it's very good against it). It's there because it's "mana acceleration" when you miss a land drop, and against aggro, it untaps your mongrels/kavu/tarmogoyfs to stop them from racing.

    Edit: Quirion ranger also pumps mongrel, and allows you not to play lands from your hand if you don't have to (saving them from mongrel, protecting them from armageddon, and also good for bluffing)

    I cannot run Leyline of Lifeforce in my sideboard because I cannot afford to mulligan until I draw it unlike you, that have confidant. I run Xantid Swarm maindeck against control, which seem to work. At worst, they attract counters and swords (so it's basically a duress that can be pumped).
    But assuming I could run it, I should cut cards from my sideboard. Which ones to cut?
    Last edited by DrJones; 06-24-2007 at 07:53 AM.

  2. #22

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    You know what why not explain what the cards in your sideboard are good for what match ups do you side them in against. Right now I do not know why you play half of the cards in your sideboard

  3. #23
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Cane818 View Post
    You know what why not explain what the cards in your sideboard are good for what match ups do you side them in against. Right now I do not know why you play half of the cards in your sideboard
    You're right about that. I'll try to write them later. Right now I'm a bit busy.

  4. #24
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Specific Matchup Analysis and Sideboard suggestions

    Really easy matchups:
    Enchantress, Goblins, Merfolks, Burn, Armageddon Stax, Solidarity, Aggro Loam, elves, Pox

    All these decks have a much slower clock than you, pack the wrong kind of disruption, if at all, and their creatures are too weak against you. In some cases, cards that you already run maindeck totally crush their strategy. The best strategy against those decks is to start fast with Kavu and cutters or Mongrel, then play as offensively as you can and just let your deck flow. No sideboard required, but I post the choices anyways:

    • Burn, elves, Solidarity: -3 thoughtseize +3 chalice of the void
    • Enchantress, Stax: -2 might of old krosa +2 gleeful sabotage
    • Pox: -3 thoughtseize -1 False cure +4 compost
    • Aggro Loam: Nothing. If you really worry about this matchup, put Ankh of Mishra on the sideboard. Otherwise same as Goblins.
    • Merfolks: -2 putrid leech -1 false cure +3 Choke
    • Goblins: Also Nothing. If forced to, do -3 thoughtseize +3 Pithing Needle


    Not as easy matchups:

    (to be filled up later)

    Hard matchups:

    Canadian Thresh
    Canadian Thresh is "hard" in the sense that it packs the correct disruption against this deck both main and in the sideboard. However, such cards are almost always 1-1 trades and those benefit you, and your sideboard is definitely stronger (if it resolves). Because both decks spend the early game countering each other, games tend to drag enough for Tarmogoyf to become better than leech. If you expect a lot of Canadian Thresh you have to consider running Relic of Progenitus or Tarmogoyfs yourself. Anyways, the decks are more or less 50/50 the first round. The cards you should worry about are tarmogoyf, spell snare, daze, and submerge. If you have to, use Berserk as removal against goyf or on one of your blockers.

    Duress/Thoughtseize are poor cards maindeck because you lose life and/or the initiative, and there are too many useful/redundant spells in their hand to make a difference. I'm still not sure about what other cards to take out, but you definitely don't want to side out the mights of old krosa. Chalice at 1 and Chokes are really devastating against thresh, and because you don't run artifacts nor enchantments maindeck, the opponent probably won't have any card to remove them if they land. Just extend your hand to him and ask if there's need to keep playing.

    -3 thoughtseize -1 windswepth heath? -2 putrid leech? +3 chalice of the void (set to 1) +3 choke.
    if you play Tarmogoys instead of leech, that would be -1 mongrel -1 false cure (spell snare target)

    Card by Card Explanation:
    Compost - Essential against discard and dredge, as the only thing this deck needs to win is drawing cards. Playing one first turn against Ichorid this is basically an autowin.
    Chalice of the Void - Keeps combo in check, protects against discard, swords to plowshares and spell snare, and makes a lot of cards in the opponent's deck worthless, specially against burn, zoo and threshold decks. Set at 1 makes your berserks uncastable, but keep them in hand just in case the opponent destroys the chalice and wins teh prize.
    Pithing Needle - Keeps other kind of combo in check, and useful when nothing else qualifies. Stops wasteland, survival, kiki jiki, dread return and other ugly cards.
    Gleeful Sabotage - Cheaper than Krosan Grip, it also has the potential of getting 2-for-1. Blue decks like Dreadstill have to counter it twice, and the Conspire copy evades Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance. All in all very useful.
    Choke - Back to Basics against blue and thresh opponents. The tempo swing is usually too high for them to recover and thus lose soon thereafter.
    Last edited by DrJones; 08-23-2009 at 07:07 AM.

  5. #25

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I believe null rod isn't need in this deck. Your deck is fast enough to not worry about artifacts that you listed, just make it 4 crumbles which is a great card for this deck.

    I love what your doing with Tarmogoyf and Xantid Swarm. I tried Xantid storm and they worked well in my deck I just have them in my SB instead of main deck.

    I personally do not see the point to chalice in this deck. The only ting you can really set it to is 1 or 2, and you never want to set it to 2. I guess i just never worry about castign cost 1 spells. I know it stops the most hated swords to plow, but just never make your kavu have more power than you have life when you play fulse cure. Problem solved. Also I do not have problems with thresh decks I just side leyline of the void, and thresh still is not much of a problem.

    About compost. I know discard hurts this kill combo. My version is a little more resilient to discard than yours. But i still up my odds aginst all black decks by adding 3 more combo pieces. Refreshing rain great card burn and life gain lol.

    Iam still testing so stuff out. But have you tried Funeral Charm over might of old krosa it comes in handy.

    Iam going to try adding the one forest to the deck I think it will help a bit.

    Also Maze of ith sucks for this deck.

  6. #26
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I tested Refreshing Rain, but black runs both discard and cheap creature removal, which leave me without the cards with which Refreshing Rain comboes. Compost is a threat by itself, and a very strong one. It also draws you a lot of cards, so you find your combo pieces sooner.

    Chalice of the Void is there against superfast combo decks that kill you turns 1-2. A Chalice for 0 or 1 is required to slow them down. It happens that a chalice set up to 1 is also good against threshold. I've yet to test them against goblins and counterslivers.

    Null rod is working so good in testing, that I plan to include more. I discovered that it stops mana abilities from moxes and artifact lands, and time vault combos. It cannot be replaced by Crumble, because it doesn't stop charbelcher. I'm so happy with it, I'm considering promoting it to maindeck.

    I've tested Funeral Charm, but it doesn't work as good as might of old krosa/rancor. Maybe if I had more discard, or the meta had more 1/1 creatures that had to be killed...

    Fortunately, I don't find Maze of Ith very scary. If it's so good against your build, you could test adding "1xTaiga 1xbadlands" to the manabase that allows you to run 2 or 3 Fling (red berserks 5-6). In my goldfishes, that mana base lost me/slowed me 2% of the games, but you seem to run more lands and more draw, so you might want to give it a try.

  7. #27

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I am trying out the compost. I am running two rain and two compost. In side board. My discard helps some aginst black so I don't mind black discard as much. I know fling might hurt. But I played a land deck where I lost 2 won 1. He drew maze of ith in both starting hands. It just made me a sad panda.

    Iam also trying 2 elvish spirit guides. They are okay the first turn crumble is nice. Though I all ways seem to need black mana not green when I draw it.

    I tried running the 1 forest it seemed to work ok, i still dotn have to much trooble with wasteland i seem to get around it.

  8. #28

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I decided to run a forest in the sideboard over main deck.
    Its worked really well. I cut the side down to 2 Deeds.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I've been playing this deck these weeks on MWS non-stop, and it's amazing.

    Latest changes:
    Swapped Tarmogoyf and Xantid Swarm. Tarmogoyf raises the number of green beaters from 8 to 11, and they are also good against control. Xantid swarm is still amazing, but with tarmogoyf the deck can pass better through removal and counters.
    When needed, Xantid swarm replaces 1 Land Grant and 2 Summoner's Pact (too risky if the opponent runs counters).

    Changes to the Sideboard:
    3 Compost (they were 4)
    3 Null rod (they were 2)

    I think this decklist, as it stands now, is optimal and competitive enough to be moved to the Open Forum. Do I need to add anything else to the thread before the move?

  10. #30

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    How about how it dose against different top tier decks.


    I can't think of any additions or changes to the "base" deck.
    Everyones meta is different.

    I have had great success with this deck as well.
    good luck.

  11. #31

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Nice deck. Swapping Tarmogoyf and Swarm is definitely the correct decision.

    However I think there is one card that should certainly be added: Grove of the Burnwillows!

  12. #32

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    grove of the burn willows isnt very good I do not need red mana and its not a forest.

  13. #33
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    This is the decklist Xavi Fugaroles took 2nd place at the "4 Sea Drakes at Pendrell Vale" tournament. Future Sight wasn't legal then (decklist taken from Germagic.de):

    5 Forest
    4 Bayou
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Wooded Foothills
    1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    2 Swamp

    4 Skyshroud Elite
    3 Mire Boa
    4 Wall of Blossoms
    4 Skyshroud Cutter
    4 Kavu Predator
    4 Dark Confidant

    2 Umezawa's Jitte
    4 Invigorate
    2 False Cure
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Putrefy
    4 Duress

    Sideboard:
    2 Xantid Swarm
    4 Extirpate
    2 Sudden Spoiling
    3 Krosan Grip
    4 Engineered Plague

  14. #34
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I've tested changing Might of Old Krosa for Rancors, but even though it makes the deck more consistent against goblins (Mongrel and Goyf can no longer be chump blocked), it slows too much its clock against other matchups.

    In the sideboard, I'm testing -3 crumble, and put instead +1 Compost and +2 Seeds of Innocence. Seeds of Innocence seems better against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void, but I don't know how well will they do against Scepter and Charbelcher.

    Some tricks about how to play the deck:

    1. Don't play a land if you don't have to. If you have Quirion Ranger, it's better to tap the land, return it to your hand, and play it again. The deck doesn't need more than 2 mana most of time. Let the opponent guess wheter you are manascrewed, or you are just keeping lands in your hand for Mongrel.

    2. The above play is only worse when you really need 3 mana next turn (False Cure + Berserk). So play one turn in advance.

    3. Going second is as good, if not better, than going first. The exception being against discard decks and combo decks that go off sooner than you.

    4. First turn Kavu Predator has to be followed with a Skyshroud Cutter if the opponent plays black to avoid Pox/Innocent Blood/Diabolic Edict. 1st turn Reverent Silence is good too if the opponent runs red. Against blue/white it's better to wait before playing those cards.

    5. First turn Mongrel is good against red, green and white. It's worse against Goblins.

    6. First turn Quirion Ranger is good against goblins, prison and zoo decks alike. It stabilizes the deck for a turn 3-4 kill.

    7. The trick "Tap mana --> Quirion ranger returning a land --> Discard land + rest of hand to Mongrel --> Berserk" has given me many games.

    8. Summoner's Pact searchs for Skyshroud Cutter for +5 life, or for Elvish Spirit Guide to pay for Berserk/Crumble/Might of Old Krosa. If you really need an extra black mana to cast False Cure and win, you can do it this way: Summoner's Pact for Spirit Guide --> Remove Spirit Guide to Cast Quirion Ranger --> Tap land/Return land/play it again.

    9. The life gaining part is a cost. It cannot be countered except by stifle. It doesn't target, either. Can be used through a Nether Void to pump Predators.

    10. Unless you have a weak hand or playing against combo/lock, try to delay playing thoughtseize or duress until your second/third turn. That way, you still get your early pressure set up, and most cards you want to target will still be in your opponent's hand. That's because they usually cost 3cc or more, are horrible plays if you control the board, or they would have been protected by the brainstorm he just spent to search for Force of Will.

    11. Many decks started putting Submerge in their sideboards. Here's a trick that you can use against them. First turn play a Kavu or Quirion Ranger. If the opponent has Submerge, he will let the creature resolve, and he will also wait your attack/pump before using it. A big mistake! Next turn, cast the other half of the duo (that will likely also resolve) and then you play a cutter/reverent silence (plus Invigorates), then reply to them activating Quirion. The opponent might try to play Submerge then, but he will not be able to do so, because you don't control forests!!! There's no time window for him to reply, and he can't counter the life gain either, so he will be stuck with a giant monster he just helped create.

    Some examples of turn 2 kills of the deck:
    I)
    1. When going second, Land + ESG/Lotus petal to play Wild Mongrel.
    2. Tap land for Might of Old Krosa + Invigorate, then land/esg/lotus petal/summoner's pact to pay for berserk, and discard the rest of your hand to mongrel in response for 24 trampling damage.

    II)
    1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Kavu Predator
    2. Land/Lotus Petal for False Cure, play any two lifegaining spells, attack with predator.

    III)
    1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Mongrel/predator/Tarmogoyf
    2. Invigorate + Land/lotus petal/ESG/Summoner's Pact --> 2 berserks (works with Might of Old krosa if there's another mana source)

    IV)
    1. Bayou/fetchland + Quirion Ranger
    2. False Cure + 3 lifegaining spells. (some don't kill right now, but makes for an easy kill next turn)

    V)
    1. Land + ESG/Lotus Petal --> Kavu Predator
    2. Invigorate + any other lifegaining spell + Berserk.

    There are many more turn 2 kills, but these are the most common ones. There are more if the opponent helps by taking damage, and there are too many 3 turn kills to list here. Many 3 turn kills deal +30 trampling damage, which pass through any blockers the opponent could play second turn.
    Last edited by DrJones; 08-22-2009 at 08:08 AM.

  15. #35

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Forgot to ask whats the "final" deck look like for you.

  16. #36

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Just a quick question did you ever try scryb ranger.

  17. #37
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    Hi. I haven't tested Scryb on this deck, but it was the card that gave me the idea of using Quirion Ranger here. Scryb Ranger is an amazing card, the problem is that it's a 2cc drop, and what the deck lacked was a good 1st turn drop (other than the Xantid). Another problems are that Scryb Ranger doesn't cut as many lands from the deck to improve the land/creature ratio, and that it makes the deck more vulnerable to Chalice of the Void and Engineered explosives (Tarmogoyf is already too much 2cc for my tastes, but is still there because it's outright better than any 3cc green beater).

    I would suggest a 4x Quirion Ranger 2x Scryb Ranger configuration as long as you also run Birds of Paradise in the deck. This allows for plays like first turn birds, second turn scryb plus mongrel/goyf/kavu/false cure. Scryb doesn't clog in the hand that way and you can cut another land from the deck.

  18. #38

    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    also a fun card a ran for a while was llanowar Augur.

  19. #39
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    I think tarmogoyf is an auto include in any green deck that wants to win by attacking. He's too good not to be used and is almost always bigger than a mongrel without the card disadvantage.

  20. #40
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    Re: [Deck] The Cure (Kavu Predator / False Cure)

    What you mean? Tarmogoyf is there. Are you saying that you're happy it is there? Otherwise I think I'll have to update the decklist on the first post.

    I've been testing Duress in the deck, along with Birds of Paradise, Scryb Rangers, and such. I've not found these cards as good as the cards they replaced (1 land grant and 2 summoner's pact), so I'm sticking to my previous decklist. I'll try to write something tomorrow, and then ask a moderator to move the thread to the Open Forum.

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