Please note that Roopey and CAngel were working on this deck simultaneously. I have merged their threads and the first two posts contain worthwhile introductions to the deck.
Peter_Rotten
Well despite the fact that I said that AEther Vial sucks in the Goblin Sligh thread, I went around to test it out. I found out one thing, the deck is actually good. I guess this proves the fact that you shouldn't bash something until you test it, right? So I have done some testing with the deck, nothing to extensive, but the deck definatly show much promise. So here goes.
Vial Goblins
Lands:
14x Mountain
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
Creatures:
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Wachief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Matron
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Mogg Fanatic
3x Seige-Gang Commander
2x Goblin Pyromancer
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Vials:
4x Aether Vials
Sideboard:
3x Price of Progress
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Tinkerer
2x Patron of the Akki
4x Pithing Needle
4x Pyrokensesis
Well, there you have it folks. I know. I know. It looks exactly like the Extended decks. Thats because it is exactly like the Extended decks, plus Lackeys of course. The deck is built upon the card advantage given to you by Goblin Matron and Goblin Ringleader and mad beats from Goblin Warchief and Goblin Piledriver, all to lead up to the big turn where Skirk Prospector and Goblin Sharpshooter goes nuts on your opponent. This is all by using Lackey and AEther Vial as ways to pump out creature after creature.
The card choices seem to be pretty obvious, we've all seen goblin decks before, this one is no different.
Match-ups
Solidarity: 4-6 This probably wasn't a good choice to go first, but this is the only matchu-up that I have tested extensively. Against this deck you want to matron out Warchiefs and Piledrivers and go nuts. A first turn Lackey second turn Warchief almost always wins the game. If you are worried about this match-up a lot you can run an 8 blast board cutting Swords.(I was actually thinking about doing that anyways BTW.)
I don't know the numbers for any of the other match-ups, but i will tell how to play against it.
ATS: Well against ATS your going to want to outrace them while gaining card advantage at the same time. So Matron will almost always get a Sharpshooter first. Then it will get Ringleader after Ringleader. There will be times when you want to get Ringleader instead, just so you can get the engine going, but garanteed Sharpshooter is amazing against this deck.
RG Survival Advantage: In the few games played against the deck it seemed kind of like a 50/50 match-up. I think this was only because of the splash of black for OVersold Cemetary in the RGSA deck which made every turn Baloth more plausible. Against the normal RGSA though I think it would be around 6-4 in Vial Goblin's favor.
Landstill: This is the deck that I fear. All of the creature hate plus Humility from the board makes this matchup a difficult one to win, but not impossible. You can easily just overcome them with threats, and if the first turn Vial resolves you should be in good condition.
Angel Stompy: I haven't had the time to test this considering no one in VA plays the deck because its bad.
Well I think thats it, I will definatly report back when more testing is done, but I wanted to get the deck out there to see if anyone could help bring it along. So please discuss!
Roop
Intro:
Goblins have been a popular archetype in every format they have been legal in; From people playing Goblins of the Flarg with Goblin King, to Onslaught Block and Gob-Bidding. So it is no surprise that they are a beloved archetype in Legacy. I was a very avid Food Chain Goblin player in the old 1.5, but that was ended on September 1st. Saddened by the loss of my pet deck, I turned my focus to helping Zilla revamp Goblin Sligh for the new format with decent success. Recently though, Goblin Sligh has fallen out of favor as the power level of Legacy has increased. Trying hopelessly to keep up, I played it anyway, trying to figure out what was so wrong. The answer was simple: Your early rush could be easily stopped, and then you are stuck topdecking and looking for answers. Frustrated, I shelved the deck and worked on other projects.
Fast forward to February 4th. Mike Flores posted an article on the new Starcitygames Premium site discussing Goblins in Extended. There were various versions: some with Burning Wish, some with Living Death and Patriarch's Bidding. Regardless of what direction the deckbuilder took they all had one thing in common: A card advantage engine. Without further ado.. (Authors Note: I realize this is nearly identical to the R/b 1.x builds, I have tried bringing in the 1.5 cardpool, but it really just doesn't do much for the deck.)
//Name: Vial-Goblins v1.0 (Port by CorruptedAngel, inspired by Flores and 1.x)
//Mana
12 Mountains
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 AEther Vial
4 Chrome Mox
//Goblins
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
//Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy
Card Choices:
Lands: Pretty self-explanatory. An argument could be made for running a full 8 Fetchlands, but so far I have had no problems drawing land or getting black mana when I need it.
AEther Vial: This card is simply amazing. Usually played Turn 1, an AEther Vial then enables you to play instant speed blockers and later plays a vital role in your Card Advantage machine.
Chrome Mox: Acceleration. Gives the ability to Therapy on turn 1 to scout for trouble, then pitch what is the most dead to you at the time (spare Warchief or Therapy, a Siege-Gang that'll be dead for a few turns, etc) and turn it into a 1 drop goblin, or preferably an AEther Vial.
Mogg Fanatic: Arguably Reds best one drop. Is a Goblin. Serves multiple roles. Questions?
Prospector: Good for accelerating out early Warchiefs, also useful later for turning used Matrons and tapped/about to die Goblins into mana to play more threats. Enables a potential alternate win through SGC and Goblin Sharpshooter, thus 4 is easily the correct number.
Piledriver/Warchief: There is simply no point in having a Goblin deck without these cards. Piledrivers are your biggest beaters and Warchief turns just about every draw into a serious threat.
Matron/Ringleader: Your Card Advantage system. Topdecking either of these will create more Goblins and reverse a grim board position.
Sharpshooter: Hurts Survival decks mana bases and makes quick work of opposing weenie decks. Used in conjunction with SGC and Prospector he can create wins when you need to win right away.
Siege-Gang Commander: Goblin generator as well as a reusable damage source. Tokens can be used for mana, Damage, or simply making Piledriver huge.
Kiki-Jiki: When Kiki hits he creates Card Advantage by copying Ringleaders and Matrons. Can also be used to copy Piledrivers, Siege-Gangs, or Sharpshooters to create lethal damage in a pinch.
Cards not included:
Goblin Lackey: Yes, yes I know. Cheap cost, broken effect. The downside? He is a 1/1 creature that has to live and connect with your opponent to be anything more than a Mons Goblin Raider. I have tested him and I found him to be useless 9 times out of 10, so he was cut.
Burning Wish/Living Death: These cards take the deck in a different direction, but I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. They orient the deck to set up for one lethal turn, similar to Food Chain. More to come on these variants later.
Goblin Goon/Mogg Flunkies: Could probably be fit in the deck, but I found them to be sub-par compared to other choices (Sharpshooter, Kiki-Jiki, etc.)
Sparksmith: Could very well find its way back into the deck, as it is removal in a deck that is in a lack of it. Reservations about it are that it damages you (which can hurt when you are running a vast number of Goblins.)
Goblin Cohort/Mogg Conscript: Identical cards that could possibly find their way into the deck as they are 1 drop 2/2s in a deck that will likely be playing creatures on nearly every turn.
Sideboard Options:
The board currently is under construction, as it is usually very metagame dependant, but a list of possible options are as follows:
Sulfuric Vortex: Can stop Pulse of the Fields, E.Angel, Baloth, Spike Feeder, etc. as well as being a damage source.
Anarchy: A catch-all sweeper for white. Shuts down Decree tokens, E.Angel, Pro-red critters, CoP: Red, Warmth, Worship, etc.
REB/Pyroblast: These are fairly obvious choices if your metagame has blue in it. Forcing through spells or destroying obnoxious Chills can be very beneficial to you. These also could help you in the Solidarity matchup.
Crash: Artifact destruction. Cheap and easy way to get around Chalice of the Void, Powder Keg, and Disk.
Burning Wish: Running it in the board allows you to run a copy of Bidding or Living Death in board aswell to board in versus Mass Removal ala Disk, Deed, and Wrath of God.
Duress: Extended decks run these to give additional disruption in the Control and Combo matches, no reason why it isn't possible here either.
Planar Void: A speed bump for survival decks, hopefully slowing them to give you additional time to win.
Perish: Catch all answer to Green creatures. Stops annoying creatures like Troll Ascetic and Plated Slagwurm while killing off mana acceleration at the same time.
There are obviously much more options than this, but these are a few that are predominant in my mind. Feel free to adapt the board as needed to best suit your metagame.
Playing the Deck:
The deck is fairly simple to play as a Beatdown deck, but it also has some nifty tricks that allow it to pull out wins it shouldn't. Your primary objectives are to lay an AEther Vial and begin churning out Goblins, using Matron and Ringleader to restock your hand. Cabal Therapy is in the deck for protection and disruption, throwing off your opponents game plan or pre-emptively striking at dangerous cards such as Wrath or Survival. It plays much more similar to Food Chain than it does to traditional Goblin Sligh... which leads me to the big point about AEther Vial...
AEther Vial is very key to this deck, and I will not hear any questions of "Can Vial be removed for Lackey? Lackey is strictly better right??" Wrong, Lackey is not strictly better. Lackey is faster, to be sure, but it has to survive to connect to your opponent and sucks after turn 3. Turn 3 and later is where this deck begins to shine. By using your turns 1 and 2 to set up Vial, Therapy away threats, early board control via Fanatic, and acceleration with Mox and Prospector, your turn 3's can be very explosive, having Ringleader, Warchief, and a Piledriver swinging at your opponents face. The biggest misconception about this deck is that it is sub-par to Goblin Sligh because it doesn't consistantly Goldfish by turn 4... The problem with this statement is, neither does Goblin Sligh. This deck takes into account the fact that it's early game will be disrupted, and creates a favorable late game by using Vial and Matron/Ringleader to produce card advantage and threats en masse.
That being said, you usually want to put a counter on your first Vial every turn until it hits 4. This allows you to play threats (Fanatics, Piledrivers, Matrons/Chiefs) in order, and then ultimately start generating advantage via Ringleader. Your second Vial usually stops at 3, this allows you to play free Warchiefs, but more importantly, it lets you drop Matrons to go and get Ringleaders or the Goblin you need specifically at that time. I would only go to 5 counters on a vial if you have a second Vial on 4, and only if you have a Kiki-Jiki or SGC in your hand.
Do not be afraid to use Prospectors ability. A Turn 1 Prospector is still a turn 2 Warchief, and potentially a turn 3 Ringleader. That is by no means a bad start. The late game Prospectors may seem dead, and you likely will want to remove them to Chrome Mox, but I would resist the urge to do so as they allow for broken plays with Siege Gang and Sharpshooter.
Matchups:
Landstill: Ugh... U/w Landstill has been the cause of one hell of a headache. They maindeck Disk, Wrath of God, and Swords to Plowshares already and can board in Chills, CoP: Red, and Pulse of the Fields... this is probably your worst matchup. The general idea is try and hit them with Cabal Therapy as early as possible for countermagic, using the flashback when possible to nab any cards that might ruin your day (Wrath, Disk, etc.), this coupled with an early Vial can allow you to start getting your beats in and begin using Ringleader and Matron. So far this is the only matchup where I have missed Lackey.
Survival Variants: Goblin Sharpshooter anyone? Follow your primary strategy: Therapy for key cards, let your Vials create threats, Sharpshooter away their mana base, and let your Ringleaders and Matrons overwhelm them with the Card Advantage they provide. If you can keep them off of Survival and their Mana with Therapy and Sharpshooter, this should be a fairly simple matchup. In the case of WeldSur, you may need to modify your plans a bit, but keeping them off of Survivals and Welders forces them to try and hardcast their fat.
Enchantress: I went into this matchup expecting a blowout in their favor... I came out wondering how the hell I went 2-0. The answer was fairly simple: I kept Confinement from resolving. Their biggest threat against you is Solitary Confinement, do whatever you can to keep it off the board. Build mana to force Piledrivers through against Elephant Grass, anywhere from 5-10 points of damage is all you need. Sharpshooter, Fanatic, and SGC clean them up.
Belcher: This actually isn't as bad as many would think, primarily due to Spoils of the Vault. Their Duresses and Therapies can hurt, but they aren't overly devastating as you are running more creatures than anything. Use your own Therapies to keep them off the major acceleration like LED and Tinder Wall, then use your Beats in conjunction with their own Spoils to win.
So far this is all I have tested, as these results are primarily based upon the three Tournaments I have played the deck in. I plan on doing more testing vs. Survival Variants, Angel Stompy, other Control, Solidarity, etc. and I will post matchup results and strategies when possible.
Conclusion:
In a field where Goblin Sligh is becoming less popular due to it's struggle to perform in the current state of the metagame, this deck offers a solution by slowing the clock a bit, but increasing redundancy and adding a Card Advantage engine that can simply overwhelm your opponent or turn a grim game-state into a favorable one.
Comments welcome.
Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1109694846
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Before cutting Lackeys, did you think about making it a 2-of? For example, -2 Skirk Prospector, +2 Lackey. I would want the most free ways to get Goblins into play as possible, even if the Lackeys are sub-par.
Also, one of Flores' more interesting choices was maindeck FTK. I know it's not maindeck worthy, but in matches where the card advantage isn't as important, FTK might deserve to be sided in for Ringleaders.
What do you think of Kirdape's analysis of the RG Survival Advantage matchup that he talked about in the Goblin Sligh thread?
Love the deck. I think we were on the same wavelength after reading that Flores article.
Driving hours to play Magic since 1994.
Honestly I have tried various numbers of Lackeys after deciding it wasn't worth it as a 4-of, but in the end they really didn't do me any good. I think I actually played something off them once in my testing with them where I wasn't already winning, and that's saying something. Although, being as powerful a card as the Lackey is, room can be made for those who hate playing without it. Simply cutting a Prospector (Lackey does nearly the same thing) and maybe a Chrome Mox would give you the 2-of slot. But I found them to be unneccessary.
On the FTKs, I primarily left them out because of the fact that they aren't Goblins, but that isn't to say they aren't strong. This deck does lack removal, and having a few FTKs in the board could potentially be strong as you want your Vials on 4 anyways. My primary worry about them would be dropping them to the bottom of the library via Ringleader, because I have never wanted to side out Ringleaders so far. Plus they are not tutorable via Matron.
Kird wasn't really comparing them in a matchup sense more than he was saying that he found the deck Sub-par to play while he has access to R/G Survival, and in a way that is partially understandable, but I am not sure it is correct. I think both decks are on a similar level, and while it is true that R/G Survival can produce Card Advantage over multiple turns where as Matron and Ringleader are more of 1-shots, Goblins can drop an army on the table to overwhelm the opponent faster and can abuse Kiki-Jiki to extend the Survival-esque tutoring and drawing past the 4 Matrons and 4 Ringleaders. I do believe that, currently, R/G Survival may be a stronger deck.... but with some fine tuning Goblins should easily be on the same power level.
Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1109717019
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
I agree that Goblin Lackey sucks if not dropped turn 1.
I'd still insist on running a full set of 4, since it's a lot more powerful than some other cards in the dec. Especially since you are only running 4 Aether Vial's and building this dec completly on it's shoulders sounds like you are asking for a whole lot of mulligans. Especially angel's list looks like it needs that turn 1 vial badly!
On the same note, building a dec that relies on an Artifact, in a format where people are packing maindec disenchants left and right don't sound too hot.
Have you considered Wasteland?
Actually, it (lackey) is much less powerful than any of the other cards in the deck. Running 4 is completely out of the question, as Mons Goblin Raiders isn't that hot of a Goblin anymore.Originally Posted by mackaber
Specifically at the AEther Vial comment, the deck isn't built around AEther Vial... It's built around a redundant amount of Goblins to make an advantage engine such as Matron/Ringleader good. Vial just makes that engine Ridiculous. While I am always eager and happy to play a Turn 1 AEther Vial, it isn't a required Turn 1 play. Running 20 permanent mana sources (16 non-Fetch lands, 4 Chromes...24 if you count Prospectors) you can fairly easily hardcast just about any threat in the deck, it is just much easier with the Vial. So no, I don't find it "not too hot" to build a deck like this in an environment with Survival hate, because the deck doesn't need the Vial to win.
What would you propose dropping for Wasteland? My primary argument against it is that it's not a permanent mana source. You would be removing spells in order to fit it into the deck, which in this case spells would be mostly Goblins, thus weakining your Ringleaders and diluting the decks redundancy. That's not exactly a hot proposition, even if it is keeping your opponent off his Taiga. Testing is warranted, and I will take a look into it, but currently it doesn't sound like a tech play.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
Well it seem CAngel and I have completely different views when it comes to Goblin Lackey. Not running 4 Lackeys in any Goblin deck where Lackey is legal is a sin. I wasnt running Lackey when I first started testing the deck since I just netdecked it and played it to see what the Legacy cardpool could add to the deck. Goblin Lackey was definitly one of those cards, actually it was the only card. Goblin Lackey is like a super-vial. It does everything Vial does except faster. I don't understand how you can not run this card as a 4 of.
@CAngel
I don't see how your using a redundant amount of Goblins to produce full advantage of Matron/Ringleader when you cut 8 Goblins from the main to run Therapy and Mox. I hated drawing Chrome Mox after first turn, and even then it slowed me down more than it sped me up, since you have to pitch gas to it. Chrome Mox just doesn' fit in the deck I don't think.
BTW never assume that Prospector and Lackey do the same thing since what they do aren't even similar.
Roop
Funny how I started a thread Very similar to this about a month ago and it was closed because "goblin sligh Thread" already existed.
Anyway, we did alot of playtesting and it almost never beat Welder Survival We decided that Goblins just wasn't good w/o Scull clamp or recruiter.
A good friend of mine once said:
>Pron w/sound FTW... Actually, Porn FTW. Yep. Fixed.
Actually I was just testing against WeldSur yesterday and beat went 6/4 against it. The fact that you can get out a turn 2/3 Sharpshooter because your run 6 is amazing. And just pure card advantage and speed overran the deck completely. I will admit though the stupid first turn Survival thing was like an automatic loss, but other than that it was actualyl a favorable matchup.
Good thing I don't believe in sinning. I was running lackey as a 4-of in the deck when I first started playing it (ask Artowis), and he was just... not good... I do not run this card as a 4-of, or at all, because I don't care about dropping Siege-Gang Commander turn 2, and that is all Lackey does. I want my first two turns worth of draws before I play a Ringleader that way I can hopefully draw some more land/therapy before I start dropping things to the bottom of the library. The deck isn't built for speed, it's built to survive past Turn 3. A vulnerable 1/1 that must deal damage for his effect to be useful in a deck with next to no removal is very sub-par... he's bad vials 5-8 and is entirely unneccesary. Goblin Lackey does absolutely nothing for your late game at all.Not running 4 Lackeys in any Goblin deck where Lackey is legal is a sin.
I never cut 8 Goblins from the main... those Goblins were never there. My creature-base is a near identical port from the 1.x creature base, due to the fact that you don't need more Goblins. Cutting Therapy (your only disruption) for something like Mogg Flunkie is a weak venture at best, and leaves you more vulnerable to any form of permanant based hate your opponent can run. In your R/w version (what version did you port that had White in it, btw?) I would easily cut those Flunkies for STP or Disenchant main, because the deck needs disruption. As far as the Lackey vs. Chrome Mox. It's simple, I want to cast my threats before my attack phase. I hardly ever have a chrome in my hand with nothing that I can pitch to it, and normally once I cast a Ringleader I will have at least 1 Goblin in my hand that I don't need, so it has been more of a help than a hinderance.@CAngel
I don't see how your using a redundant amount of Goblins to produce full advantage of Matron/Ringleader when you cut 8 Goblins from the main to run Therapy and Mox. I hated drawing Chrome Mox after first turn, and even then it slowed me down more than it sped me up, since you have to pitch gas to it. Chrome Mox just doesn' fit in the deck I don't think.
Actually, this is untrue. They do the exact same thing, they generate a way to accelerate your higher cost Goblins onto the table. Prospector just has a nicer interaction with SCG and Sharpshooter. In the grand scheme of playing this deck, they are nearly identical, and the Prospectors side benefit makes him infinately stronger than Lackey.BTW never assume that Prospector and Lackey do the same thing since what they do aren't even similar.
@ All: Do not make comments about "All goblin decks need Lackey" without testing first. Lackey is not the end all, be all Goblin. It can't be broken if it can't realistically survive.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
I don't know, I personally think that it's a blatant error to not run 4 Lackeys. Sure, you have all of these things that are better than Lackey on any other turn but 1 - but there's nothing almost in the format better than that Lackey. It's both Vials 5-8 AND a guaranteed block or removal spell from the opponent, because hitting a Siege-Gang Commander (or God forbid, a Kiki-Jiki) is pretty close to game right on the spot.
An analogy is Workshop into Trinisphere on the play. Any other turn but 1, it's pretty mediocre (they're liable to have dropped their Moxen to get their 3 mana to cast anything) - but it's powerful enough to have just gotten restricted.
Then I suppose I am the minority here who sees that it isn't necessary.. Whatever. All I can say is I have played the deck in two different areas locally (1 with more established "net decks" the other with more home grown style decks) and have fairly consistantly monkeystomped without the aid of said 1/1 dork. Run him if you wish, the only thing I can realistically see cutting is Chrome Mox, but I highly advise against it.
Do as you wish.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
The thing that everyone BUT Sims is looking for is the 3rd-4th turn kill. What Sims is looking at is a deck that overloads his opponent and then has the ability to come back from the overload faster than his opponent.
That is why Lackey isn't in his deck. I would like to say that everyone should rethink what they are saying before pulling out the cross to burn him on. THE FORMAT HAS SLOWED DOWN!!!! If you can't overload your opponent before he has caught up to you, you lose. Flat out, no other way around it. Any intellegent person would know what to do against a Lackey. (Ehhh I'll block it with my BOP, then my wall until I kill you.) Now if your playing against non-White non-Red decks it might be good to side in but what do expect from your opponent???
Mythic Rogue Deck Builder
Team Freshly Baked Crayons
Team Albany
I expect to be able to let that Lackey draw fire, then kill them with a Warchief and company. If he hits, in a lot of cases that's a huge swing. If he doesn't, then that's fine. Killing a Bird or mutualing with an Elf is perfectly acceptable to me. Otherwise, he's Vials 5-8. I'd personally play with a creature that says 'When this deals combat damage to an opponent, add up to RRRRR to your mana pool. This mana may only be used to cast Goblins.'
Goblin Lackey is banned in Extended for a reason - this deck would be utterly dominant in that format if he was still legal. It's Tinker for red... that can't be horrible. Skirk Prospector isn't anywhere near on this level.
The format slowed down? Thats a really bold statement, considering all it has done has become faster. Everyday people are working on making Solidarity and WeldSur better and faster decks. ATS takes around 4 turns until you can't beat them anymore, and racing a turn five Disk or turn 4 Wrath against LandStill is very hard without Lackey. Hell even GoblinSligh will kill your tuirn 4-5. I dont knwo where you are getting that the format has slowed down in anyway.
Roop
@Watcher: The basic assumption behind your whole argument is that you wan't to build a sort of a controlish goblin dec around your Aether Vials, now obviously this is a viable strategy since it seems to be working in extended right?
The point is however, when looking at a format with a greater cardpool there will be some other strong cards that you might suite the dec quite nicely, now Legacy gives us an additional tool in form of Goblin Lackey.
Since we already have a card that serves a simialar function, and might even be supirior, since it can't be blocked and is better than the Lackey when drawn late in the game we could assume that we don't need Lackey anymore, since it does not suite the dec's strategy as well.
I for my part think this logic is extremely flawed, for one thing Angel comparing goblin lakey to Mon's Goblin Raiders is not doing lakey any justice, and your other argument to defeat his claim to beeing one of the most broken goblin's of all time is that he is so easy to answer, hell yeah he's a 1/1 red creature what were you expecting? To quote David Price on this one "There's no wrong threats only wrong answers". And goblin lakey is one hell of a threat on turn 1. Assuming your playing first there is only a very limited number of spells that are actually beeing played that can handle him and in case your opponent puts a 1/1 or god forbid 0/1 creature in his way you still have 6 or so cards in your dec to kill it and let lakey through. Trading your lakey for StP, FoW, or findhorn elf is rarely going to be a bad play since it draws out the good answer's for your other dudes or stunts the opponent's developement. And don't you tell me that people are not affraid when goblin lakey comes down on turn 1.
And why is that so? because hitting with a turn one lakey is always good, you can do so much more than just siege gang turn one. Double piledriver any one? I personally love matron for piledriver go.
I agree lakey sucks later than turn 1 but hell how good is vial any later than turn 2?
All this leads me to the conclusion that maybe when building this dec we should take a better look at the available cards and try to exploit these cards as best as possible, even if this means to push the dec into a slightly different direction.
@Roop: Thank you for agreeing with me. Prior to the bannings The fundemental turn for Legacy was (big galla openning) TURN 3. I wonder what it is now....... ohhh yeah TURN 4. Thank you, try the veil.
@mackaber: It's not like I'm dissing the little punk goblin. I have used it to some good. But my big thing is that I like it as a sideboard option. But the thing that a few people obviously ignore is the fact that prior to the bannings the deck played about 16 land with 6 fetchs, and was not able to cast Siege Gang unless you sac'd a bunch of goblins. With both of these decks are so high on the curve to begin with. The other problem, Lackey places goblins into play AFTER COMBAT, no hasty beasts, no huge win.
Mythic Rogue Deck Builder
Team Freshly Baked Crayons
Team Albany
Ok I think I am really missing something here. How is Lackey good in GoblinSligh which is full of dudes that you can cast with ease, but he's not good in a deck where your guys actually cost redonkulous amounts of mana. Goblin Sligh runs critters that cost 1 and 2 mana maybe 3 if you are running Warchief yet no one argues against him in that deck. Is he even neccesary in Sligh? No, no he isn't. Actually the deck would be fine without it. Buts that as far as it would go, fine. We want perfect. We don't settle for fine. Goblin Lackey just makes Goblin decks good. Sure they would be OK without him, but we want a deck that is actually going to beat the person that sits across from you.
You don't want to watch Solidarity go off when the only thing you have played is a Vial, Prospector, and a Warchief. Is that going to kill them by turn 4? No it isn't. So why would you ever ever play this deck without Lackey?
Flames deleted. No need for personal attacks.
Pete_Rotten
I think a lot of this is personal preference, and there isn't going to be an answer on the Lacky really until someone does some serious testing with the deck and takes it to a tournament. Personally, I think the Lackeys are better than the Chrome Moxen in the deck, but maybe that's just me. In CA's favor, he did Top 4 with it in Albany last weekend. I'm assuming that was a no Lackey build. What about the build that calosso Top 8'd with at the Lucky Frog last week? Lackey or no Lackey?
The Extended tech for playing fast combo is to use a single Goblin Pyromancer in the MD to Matron up. It usually pushes the kill to turn 3-4. It also acts as a Wrath of God against the mirror.You don't want to watch Solidarity go off when the only thing you have played is a Vial, Prospector, and a Warchief. Is that going to kill them by turn 4? No it isn't.
Driving hours to play Magic since 1994.
Calloso was running my build. The only reason he played it was cuz i gave him the list like 2 days before the tounry.
Pyromancer might have some potential, although it needs testing.
And just so you know that I have constantly been testing the deck for the past 2 weeks and wouldn't cut Lackey if you gave me a dollar.
Roop
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