ETA: I'm leaving the rest of the post alone, but I'm going to keep the most up-to-date list on the top of the first page.
4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Kor Haven
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant
SB:
3 Ray of Distortion
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Ground
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Karakas
1 Genju of the Fields
1 Runed Halo
Previous ETA:
18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
2x Grindstone
2x Painter's Servant
3x Eternal Dragon
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Wrath of God
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Moat
4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter
SB:
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Ray of Distortion
2x Sacred Ground
2x Story Circle
1x Sacred Mesa
2x Decree of Justice
1x Rule of Law
Now return you to the original post.
[/ETA]
I actually build a metric fuckton of decks that never see the light of day. I'll proxy them up on MWS, maybe play a few games on MWS, then get bored and scrap them. Any number of things can inspire a deck. Sometimes it's actually cards, or any given one card I feel like playing at the moment. Sometimes the deck is actually top-down; say, for instance, that someone makes an account on the Source with a handle referencing a damnably catchy Bob Dylan song I hadn't even thought about in years. I might get said tune stuck in my head for a week, and decide that I'd like to build a deck with that name. Quinn's an eskimo, so obviously it needs to be a Snow deck.
Usually these decks get scrapped, but every one in a hundred actually turns out to actually be really fucking impressive. This is one of those.
18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
Kill Conditions:
2x Eternal Dragon
2x Decree of Justice
3x Adarkar Valkyrie
1x Sacred Mesa
Creature Kill:
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Condemn
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God
Anti-Combo:
4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
Tutoring/Manipulation:
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Enlightened Tutor
Tutor Targets:
2x Isochron Scepter
1x Powder Keg
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Moat
1x Story Circle
SB:
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trinisphere
1x Rule of Law
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Sacred Ground
1x Hannah's Custody
1x Karmic Justice
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Pithing Needle
1x Humility
1x Thunderstaff
1x Grindstone
1x Mindslaver
Actually writing this out on a decksheet would be such a pain. Anyway;
Snow Engine- 25 Snow cards allow you to use Scrying Sheets blind fairly often EoT just to draw a land, keeping up your mana production, while digging you deeper towards the business cards. With Top out, it goes from decent to amazing, allowing you to rapidly dig through and stack your deck. Top also works with E. Tutor and Eternal Dragon for shuffle effects. Tutor is an important part of this deck, as all the one ofs might've made obvious. You can tutor for early answers to various decks in Seal, Powder Keg, and Isochron Scepter (sticking an Orim's Chant on it to lock them mostly out of the game, an StP just to kill all their creatures, or even an Abeyance to keep them off of random cards while drawing more cards yoursself), or get a late game powerhouse in Sacred Mesa, Story Circle, or Moat. With a different draw engine than Rabid Wombat, there's a lot more room for actual business spells; in addition to plenty of creature removal, you have cards that actually stop non-attacking decks; Terrageddon or Armageddon Stax or anything with Wildfire or Devastating Dreams was a nightmare matchup for Wombat, but with Scepter-Chant lock, you can actually shut them completely out of the game before they even get their land-wipes online; Scepter-Chant's good against pretty much everything, actually.
The sideboard is full of one ofs, although lots of them serve dual functions. Karmic Justice can supplement either Sacred Ground against the land-wipe strategies, or Hannah's Custody against Naturalizes; Trinisphere, Rule of Law, and Chalice are all pretty good against combo, and Thunderstaff is, too, actually (in addition to comboing with DoJ). Humility and Thunderstaff can lock out aggro completely, and Humility's good against creature-based combo and most aggro. Grindstone and Mindslaver are bombs in the tedious control-mirror. And Aura and Seal are just for the extra disenchant effects, when you want them- say, against Stax or Raffinity or Fairy Stompy.
My testing results so far, mostly preboard;
CRET Belcher: 1:1. This is better than I had expected. The scariest thing is first turn Belcher with LED, but you can Tutor for (or just draw) Seal of Cleansing and Powder Keg to shut down tokens/Charbelcher, or Orim's Chant in response to a Desperate Ritual. Or you can cast Orim's Chant with kicker to fog a turn while you get to Wrath mana. About half of the time, that's insufficient, but post-board it should also get noticeably better with Pithing Needle, Chalice, and Seal of Cleansing/Rule of Law, etc. in place of StP and Wing Shards.
Goblins: 5:2. This is about what you'd expect. You have most of the tools Wombat has against Goblins; while there's no lifegain (although I'm pondering an Ivory Tower in the board), and only one Rune, you also have Moat and Scepter-Chant, to which they have no real answer most of the time. Humility and Thunderstaff are strong sideboard options here.
Threshold: 3:2. It depends a great deal on what color you're playing against; white and black are easier game 1 than Red, which can more often burn you out if you get too low. This matchup isn't a cakewalk at all; you have to respect the power of Mongoose and Tarmogoyf backed up by Force and Daze. If they don't draw too many counters, however, you should be able to keep their board clear and resolve some bombs, either defensive in Story Circle and Moat and Scepter, or simply in Valkyrie/Eternal Dragon form.
Red Death: 2:1. Sensei's Divining Top and Enlightened Tutor are fucking amazing here. Dark Ritual is their scariest card, as they can sometimes outrace you, and burn can take you out if you stabilize at too low life, but generally your ability to play from the top and kill all the threats they produce wins you the game.
RGBSA: 2:5. Genesis and Anger are really bad for you, especially with discard/Wish backup. Your best bet here is to try and get Scepter-Chant online as soon as possible. Humility and Pithing Needle and Crypts make this a little bit better postboard.
Solidarity: 1:Graham's Number. I don't think it's actually possible to win this matchup against a competent opponent unless they have a heart attack midway through the round.
Edit:
Most Recent List:
18x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
2x Eternal Dragon
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Sacred Mesa
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Argivian Find
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Wrath of God
1x Moat
4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter
Sb:
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Argivian Find
1x Grindstone
1x Painter's Servant
1x Isochron Scepter
1x Sacred Ground
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Pithing Needle
1x Aura of Silence
1x Powder Keg
1x Jester's Cap
1x Defense Grid
1x Ghostly Prison
Last edited by TheInfamousBearAssassin; 04-26-2010 at 07:50 PM.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Why not playing some fetchlends tu tune SdT
“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.
Running Fetchlands would mean that the Scrying Sheets engine doesn't work anymore.
I like this deck, it has much of the power Wombat had and a nice drawing engine. With Solidarity not being one of the major parts of the metagame anymore, the combo matchup should become at least winnable since decks like Belcher can be more easily disrupted with Chant and Abeyance.
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
I've got fond memories of playing Frigid Wombat, at least before I got bored of 30-minute games. The deck's close enough that IMO you could have just posted it in the Wombat thread, but that's not worth discussing.
Major notes:
1) Adarkar Valkyrie was always terrible to me. Being snow doesn't make up for paying 6 mana for a pumped Serra Avenger with a rarely-relevant ability. Exalted Angel wins the game when you're losing, Adarkar Valkyrie wins the game when you're winning.
2) Clean up the wannabe-wishboard. Karmic Justice is only played in Enchantress, and is much worse than Sacred Ground. Hannah's Custody is crap even in Stax. Mindslaver is worthless. Aura of Silence is no Serenity. Rule of Law does basically the same thing as Trinisphere. Grindstone is cool, but worse than the Future Sight Millstone (whatever it's called). Play some Spheres of Resistance.
3) Lands: +1 Urza's Factory, +1 Ancient Den, +1/2 Mouth of Ronom
4) Possible "man plan" in the SB? If you maindeck Angels and bring in Moms, Avengers, and maybe some Knights...
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I actually found the ability to be quite useful in the Threshold matchup. 4 life a turn often doesn't counteract Tarmogoyf beats, but stealing a Tarmogoyf after a Wing Shards or Wrath can be completely game-swinging.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I'd be hard-pressed to find a better example of win-more
Anyway, my tweaked list:
// Lands
15 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [CS] Mouth of Ronom
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
1 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
// Win conditions
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
// Creature control
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [DIS] Condemn
2 [SC] Wing Shards
3 [PR] Wrath of God
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [LG] Moat
// Stall or lock
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [OV] Abeyance
// Search
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
// Toolbox
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [FNM] Seal of Cleansing
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [WL] Serenity
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [TE] Orim's Prayer
SB: 1 [TSP] Stuffy Doll
Changes:
+1 Condemn, -1 Wing Shards: Unless you're playing against Goblins (the only deck that will give you storm before attacking), Wing Shards is a crappy Edict until turn 4 at best. In my book, that means it's a 2-of, not a 3-of. With a lot of Goblins in the meta, it can deserve the third slot.
Exalted Angel over Valkyrie: Already explained.
Toolbox lands: Combined with dropping the Valkyrie, this brings the snow count down to 21; considering that Scrying at blind doesn't happen that often (you'll usually draw either a Tutor or a Top, and if you have neither, chances are your hand contains removal or Angels), I find that an acceptable price. I went with Darksteel Citadel over Ancient Den, since it's immune to Wasteland (which is critical when you're Tutoring for a land). Urza's Factory was skipped since the deck already has four separate win conditions, and Extirpate-style hate isn't expected in Game 1.
Sideboard: Completely reworked.
4 Spheres of Resistance give you a shot vs. combo, and going to 3 Powder Kegs makes Goblin tokens much less scary - but it is also useful against Landstill manlands and the like.
Jotun Grunt is graveyard removal that doubles as a solid beater; works well as a generic spot-filler.
Serenity owns Stax and Enchantress (protect it with Chant/Abeyance against the latter!). At first I was worried about it blowing up Sacred Ground, but then I realized that if you have Sacred Ground in play against Stax, there's no reason to want to blow up the board.
Orim's Prayer replaces Thunderstaff; the Staff's ability is irrelevant since you'll side out Decree and Mesa in those matchups, and an enchantment is generally harder to remove for Burning Wish Combo.
I cut the Millstone wannabe (although my pick for that slot, if any, would be Tower of Murmurs), because the only deck against which I'd rather have that than Stuffy Doll is Life.dec. The Doll performs admirably against large, non-evasive beaters (Tarmogoyf, I'm looking at you).
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
While I'm not 100% sold on Adarkar Valkyrie, Exalted Angel is little better. The spirit link isn't significantly better than Vigilance + creature stealing, and I never want to morph her. And often not costing a card off of sheets pushes Adarkar significantly over. If I was to drop her at all, it would be for +1 DoJ, +1 Dragon, and +1 Scepter.
Combo: I already have a shot versus combo. The new combo doesn't care about Sphere because it's usually going off before Sphere hits. I'd rather run Pithing Needles or more Ghostly Prisons or Powder Kegs to deal with Goblins (Ghostly Prison being good against all kinds of Goblins). Combo simply works differently than it used to. It's less vulnerable to slow stax effects, at it doesn't wait to get a few extra cards and mana drops before going off; but it is more vulnerable to things that deal with 1/1 hordes.
I don't need Wing Shards before turn 4 against Gro/Fish variants, and Goblins feeds it if they're going to kill me before it hits. Considering that StP + Wing Shards is almost always a Wrath at instant speed, I don't think your argument for cutting the number of Wing Shards is strong enough. I really don't want to lose to Nimble Mongoose simply because I can't find an answer. I think 5 StPs is enough here.
I'm definitely interested in Mouth of Ronom, but I'm worried that 15 White sources is too few. I have found myself wishing I could tutor for mana, and Darksteel Citadel is also a bonus against Armageddon, so I'm definitely interested in running that card. I might try one Mouth for a bit.
Stuffy Doll eats it to StP in the Landstill matchup, which Grindstone does not. Although the thought of running Tower of Murmurs instead had occurred to me, given how slow that matchup is.
I had been running 2x Crypt for the ability to play it twice, which I found quite useful. I wasn't running Jotun Grunt though. But in my experience, while Jotun Grunt can be a good beater, he's actually really shitty graveyard hate against anything but Threshold.
The argument about Orim's Prayer being harder to remove for Belcher than Thunderstaff is actually pretty decent. But at that point I think I'd rather just run Ghostly Prison and be able to bring it in against Vial-Goblins.
Right now I'm looking at something like this:
16x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
1x Mouth of Ronom
1x Darksteel Citadel
2x Decree of Justice
2x Eternal Dragon
3x Adarkar Valkyrie (or +1 DoJ, +1 E Dragon, +1 Scepter)
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
4x StP
1x Condemn
3x Wing Shards
3x Wrath of God
2x Isochron Scepter
1x Powder Keg
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Story Circle
1x Moat
sb:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ghostly Prison
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Powder Keg
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Humility
1x Sacred Ground
1x Tower of Murmurs
1x Ivory Mask
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Wow, I'm touched. And I even like the deck. Snow is too cool.
I suppose the obvious question should be asked. What makes this deck better than a straightforward port of extended No-Stick?
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Coming from a standard players POV, if you need lifegain martyr of sands could do that. Obviously as a board card, but he can throw his body into an attacker and gain 15 life.
Thank god someone is abusing E. tutor. I've been trying and failing for a few weeks now.
I know you can't get too cute with the mana base, but have you ever felt the need for an Ancient Den as a fetchable one of?
Edit: Nihil beat me to it.
If you haven't already given up on the Solidarity matchup you could try fitting 3 more Rule of Laws in the board. As well how about the janky "Wall of Hope" in the board vs Aggro?
Your numbers vs CRET Belcher seem optimistic. I would be interested in the results of futher testing against the deck.
I think a few of the creature choices, mainly so many Valkyries are sub-par. If I feel up to it I will search the Gatherer for creatures and suggest a few.
I really like the deck and I think that with some work it could become competitive.
Did you try that Snow-Artifact-mana card for 2 mana? Heart of Something? I use 3-4 Mind Stones in Wombat and I find them critical to ramp up the mana curve to 4cc on turn 3. Is it not worth it to tap out on turn 2?
Speaking of 4cc have you tried Gerrard's Wisdom? Seems like your hand would be full of cards with the Snow Engine. I use Wisdom in Wombat to Time Stretch against aggro, and its pretty rediculous against decks with a slow clock. Also, it can make a turn 3 Tendrils win much harder for your opponent if you can accelerate into it.
I think you could stand to be a little (a lot) less zealous with the Tutor Board. Why Story Circle over Rune of/Circle of Protection? I think Warmth would be a good target for the burn MU.
EDIT: Coldsteel Heart
info.ninja
they haunt minds...
Despite my efforts, I find myself unable to figure out what the Grindstone and the Painters Servant in the sideboard are for? You already run them maindeck, so what's the point?
Also, the Defense Grid in the SB seems unuseful, this is not a tempo deck and opposing control decks can just wait until they have the mana to circumvent the effect and use their counters to anyway. Tutoring for a Scepter and imprinting Abeyance or Orims Chant seems much more useful.
When I'm more worried about removal/counters, or the combo is going to be my first line of offense rather than a delayed win condition (such as, for instance, when time is an issue), I'll side in the extra parts of the combo. The third Painter comes in especially often against StP, for instance.
Defense Grid is more usful than it might seem. While this deck is still slow, it does have the option of winning turn 6-7 realistically (earlier occasionally) through the combo. And the mere threat of Defense Grid forcing through the combo can force them to keep mana open even where they have free counters. And besides the combo, it can also just force through all the silver bullets. That said, it's not one of the most important cards in the SB, and could be cut.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Have you considered scour in the board? It seems like a good answer to counterbalance and this deck really needs some help in that department. Might be a little narrow but counterbalance tends to be everywhere at most "high level" tournaments.
they haunt minds...
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