[Deck] Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I could accept everything else in the list, but

a) You shouldn't run 4 Tutors. You simply don't need that many and rarely want to cast the second.

b) Never, ever, ever, everever run less than 4 Tops. In early lists I did this for reasons that can only be described as stupidity. Run 4 Tops. Run 4 Tops. Run 4 Tops. There is never a game or a matchup where you do not want to draw and resolve Top. Run 4 Tops.

[Captain Hammer]

About three tutors, there are so many silver bullets here that it seems wrong not to play the max number of tutors so you can grab a combo piece or a moat or something at will.

As for 4 Top, why is top so good exactly. There is no Counterbalance, no fetchlands, and top is worthless in multiples. Without shuffle effects Top is a very weak card imo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I will crawl through your computer screen by magic and devour your fucking soul if I ever hear you say anything bad about Top again.

You have six shuffle effects and Scrying Sheet, which is a drawing engine with Top in and of itself.

Your chances of victory dorp at least 5% every game you don't see Top. Top is the reason to play this deck. Without Top, this deck would be pure Tier 3.

It doesn't matter if it's dead in fucking multiples; you can shuffle the extra way. More importantly, you're much more likely to win by drawing the first.

Also, fun question;

How many silver bullets are there?

a) There's one. Moat. In your list, you have one Silver Bullet. Everything else is in multiples that you should have an easy time finding late game with Top, which you run 4 of.

Or you could not listen to the guy that's piloted this deck thousands of times.

[Captain Hammer]

I will crawl through your computer screen by magic and devour your fucking soul if I ever hear you say anything bad about Top again.

I don't believe in magic and my soul is in my penis so you're welcome to try to devour it all you want.

I only count 3 shuffle effects in your list, so where's the other three? Top works with Scrying Sheets, but Sheets works fine by itself too.

I do however count 7 silver bullets

3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat

along with 5 win conditions

2x Grindstone
2x Painter's Servant
1x Sacred Mesa

that Enlightened Tutor can grab you in a pinch, so that's way more than 1.

I'll take your word on the Top's and you're probably right about it, but since I'm going to play four, I'm probably going to throw in some fetchlands too, to combo with the Top some more.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

3 Eternal Dragon, 3 Enlightened Tutor.

If you add fetchlands, you make Scrying Sheets suck.

Listen. I've played this deck not a few times. You might want to just try taking my word on this, jah? There's room for new ideas, and then there's ignoring hundreds of hours of testing 'cuz.

[Captain Hammer]

Fine, when you're right you're right.

I leave the 4 Tops alone.

My one concern is, the deck has been okay against control. But it seems to be having problems with really fast and aggressive aggro decks. The deck simply doesn't play enough removal, so having to grab a wrath or moat is pretty much the best shot. And there's no guarentee that you can even survive long enough to cast them either.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, that can be an issue. In this scenario, throw down everything you have in defense. Use Chant as a Fog. Use Servant as a blocker; or in this case, I guess, use Guilty Conscience as a bad Reciprocate.

If you think it'll be super relevant, you can add that new Pacifism that gets you 1 life a turn as a Tutor target.

[Sek'Kuar]

If you think it'll be super relevant, you can add that new Pacifism that gets you 1 life a turn as a Tutor target.

Recumbent Bliss? I actually really like Prison Term. The ability to change to a bigger threat later is always valuable. I cant count the times when I wished I hadn't pacified a certain creature because a turn later something bigger/stronger/more powerful came along. Plus it kills activated abilities.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm 90% sure faith fetter's is superior to either option.

Faith Fetters inactivates ANY permanent with an activation, from Survival, to Scepter, to Grindstone, to Top, to Disk, to other creatures with or without activations too. So it's pretty much never dead.

This flexibility (it's not just limited to creatures) plus the four point life gain makes it imo the best pacifism variant any deck could ask for.

[Illissius]

While it may be a better Pacifism effect, is it better as a tool against fast aggro which happens to be a Pacifism effect? It costs four mana, and, as you said, you don't necessarily live that long.

As for other options (besides simply playing more inexpensive removal), if the fast aggro decks giving you trouble share a color, perhaps a Circle of Protection in that color? It's ugly, but could be effective.

[Zach Tartell]

I'm 90% sure faith fetter's is superior to either option.

Faith Fetters inactivates ANY permanent with an activation, from Survival, to Scepter, to Grindstone, to Top, to Disk, to other creatures with or without activations too. So it's pretty much never dead.

This flexibility (it's not just limited to creatures) plus the four point life gain makes it imo the best pacifism variant any deck could ask for.

Wait, you're looking for an answer to super fast aggro and you find it in a 4-cost enchantment? Why not just run another Wrath, at that point?

Possible list of enchantments that can fix a single attacking creature:

• Gelid Shackles
  • Costs 1
  • Requires a Snow mana up each turn to give him defender
  • Shuts off activated abilities
• Hobble
  
  • Draws a card
  • Costs 3 (usually will dodge counterbalance)
  • Doesn't stop blocking (although we're usually swinging either with a hundred Pegasus tokens or a 5/5 flier, so that probably won't be an issue)
• Kirtar's Desire
  
  • Costs 1.
  • No other real advantages
• Pariah
  
  • Plays well with stuffy doll
  • Probably too cute.
  • Dodges Counterbalance?
• Cage of Hands
  
  • Hard Pacifisim
  • Can be returned to hand to play again on another guy.
  • Costs 3, 2 to bounce.
• Prison Term
  • It's like a Cage of Hands that can go on a bigger, scarier guy.
  • Can't be bounced in response to your own wrath, Deed, etc.
• Recumbent Bliss
  
  • Gains life
  • Costs 3

[Tao]

How about Oblivion Ring? Nvm. you are running it already. And Runed Halo? Hmm, you run that, too. So maybe you don't need another tutorable spot removal, especially because Halo and O Ring seem way superior to Pacifisms.

If you play in a real aggro Meta you just need something for the case you get swarmed or burned. In case fear to get swarmed I'd go with Ghostly Prison and in case you fear the burn you can add a single Sphere of Law to your Story Circles.

[FoolofaTook]

Meekstone can be a decent silver bullet against a deck looking to resolve one or two big threats and do you that way with constant hand or land-based disruption as the covering fire. Team America's game plan is disrupted heavily by a 1cc artifact that turns Tombstalker off after one strike.

It does have the drawback that it won't stop Goblins or Elves or Merfolk (most of the time) from over-running you before you get up the mana to Moat or WoG.

[Captain Hammer]

Meekstone is a great idea. I will be trying Meekstone instead of something, maybe Eternal Dragon, since elves and goblins are the only threats Meekstone doesn't stop. Or maybe I'll try Ensnaring Bridge instead.

Also, I decided that I will be playing Mother of Runes in my Stuffy Doll build of the deck.

The card does serve as a great chumpblocker, and thus forces your opponent to either use up two removal spells to deal with it, or forces them to use up a removal spell and simulatonously prevents Goyf from hitting you for one turn.

Either way, that means you live longer and your opponent will have used up his StP effect already which means he has less ways to take out Stuffy Doll.

I think I will also up the Stuffy Doll count up to 4 for the same reason. It works great in the deck, even when it's not helping you combo off.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Eternal Dragon is an easy card to cut. Early on, it's a two mana plains + shuffle effect, which isn't too fantastic, and later on, all it does is recur for five mana to give you a seven mana 5/5 flyer. Hardly exciting.

That being said, it's almost always wrong to cut Eternal Dragon. Aside from StP, the card has no answer; and especially with Stuffy Doll, your cards are drawn elsewhere. It's not flashy and exciting, but it serves basic roles you want at every stage of the game. It single-handedly tilts the control mirror in your favor; control-on-control is often decided by recursion. Eternal Dragon is the best and most useful recursive card in the control-on-control card, and one of the few that produces direct and immediate card advantage; I've lost track of the number of games I've won in tournaments by getting a half dozen plains out of my library during a topdeck lull, and then going for the kill.

It's not flashy and exciting, but it supports the entire deck. It's like this I-Beam. You'd think you could just take out this I-Beam, install a disco ball, and the house would be much sexier, but no.

I admit I've been tinkering with the Stuffy-Conscience combo a bit myself;

18x SC Plains
4x Scrying Sheets

3x Eternal Dragon
3x Stuffy Doll
1x Sacred Mesa

3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Sensei's Divining Top

3x Guilty Conscience
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Runed Halo
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Wrath of God
1x Moat

4x Orim's Chant
2x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter

I upped both Doll and Conscience to a 3-of for the reason that both are usable as simple control elements, although neither is fantastic at that job.

[Captain Hammer]

I like that build a lot. I'll try running a carbon copy of it.

It never made too much sense to me as to why this deck would play Grindstone+Painter for the kill instead. Yes, that combo is easier to protect. But, both Grindstone and Painter are useless on their own. Why play dead cards in a control deck when you could play cards that are useful outside of comboing off?

That's a good point about Eternal Dragon. But it really sounds like it is a very mid-late game card.

Recursion can't really be usable before turn 8 or so. Given that, couldn't you easily get away with playing 2 Eternal Dragon rather than three? That could free up room for a full playset of Stuffy Dolls which really is a very strong control element on it's own (better than Guilty Conscience imo). Plus, you often lose your first Stuffy Doll to an StP if your opponent is competent and playing white. So having more copies of it is not a bad thing.

IBA, I really would love to see you try to remake Train Wreck for this meta as well.

Black has a lot more control tools in things like Innocent Blood, Edicts, Smallpoxes and what not which are fantastic now that most decks play 8-12 creatures total. Train Wreck was always great against aggro control already.

Plus, there is no reason why 3 Scrying Sheets + 18 Snow-covered Swamp + 3 Cabal Coffers can't be used. Hell, you could use that 3cc Pestilence that only works off of Snow mana as an alternative win condition.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Stuffy Doll is hella expensive. I really don't think you want to clutter up your hand with it early on, while cutting off a mana source. 3-of is plenty with Tutor + Top.

[georgjorge]

IF the recursion of Dragon wouldn't be important, Tithe would look like a great replacement.

[Tao]

I upped both Doll and Conscience to a 3-of for the reason that both are usable as simple control elements, although neither is fantastic at that job.

Doll can be pretty solid, even though it is expansive and loses against Swords. But you are overvaluing Guilty Conscience. It is not only "not fantastic", it just sucks as much as a card can suck.

It cannot deal with Utility creatures (Birds, Lackey, Warchief, Confidant, Merfolk Lords, Imperial Painter), Manlands, Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. And that are basically all creatures played in the format.

The only creatures it can kill makes Snuff Out look like it has no drawback: Doran, Tombstalker, Piledriver, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher, Terravore, equipped Chalice Stompy Monsters (they also play SoLaS which makes it even worse). "Destroy target creature, deal 5 damage to you" is not what a control deck wants.

So imo you should just play the superior Painterstone Combo.

IF the recursion of Dragon wouldn't be important, Tithe would look like a great replacement.

Now that sounds solid. Imprinting Tithe into Scepter is possible, too, and there are matchups where this is no bad idea.

[snackfu]

I understand that Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience creates a loop of damage, but can someone explain exactly how it works to me? For some reason, I am not seeing it.