[Deck] Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn

[pandabaer]

how important is the change rules change for the deck
especially the layer change quote:
Layer 1: Copy effects are applied.
Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied.
Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied

Now color-changing effects happen before effects that add or remove abilities. This changes some Snakeform interactions, for example. It also changes how Painter's Servant interacts with effects that cause it to lose all abilities.

cause now painter's servant and humility work together ;)

[4eak]

Now color-changing effects happen before effects that add or remove abilities. This changes some Snakeform interactions, for example. It also changes how Painter's Servant interacts with effects that cause it to lose all abilities.

cause now painter's servant and humility work together ;)

If that is true, then Humility deserves a maindeck spot. Can anyone else verify this is true? E-Dragon loses some functionality, but not much, as you either have your 1x Humility or you don't.

Humility takes care of Pridemage and tons of other odd creatures too.





peace,
4eak

[Valtrix]

Wouldn't it not matter, since either way painter turns everything one color, then humility takes that ability away (returning everything to regular colors), or humility removes the ability so that it can never apply to begin with?

[Van Phanel]

It does matter.

To find out what a permanent's actual characteristics are, you start with what is written on them. Then you go through the layers (one by one) and see if anything changes.

In our example (Painter's servant + Humility) it goes as follows:

Layer1: nothing
Layer2: nothing
Layer3: nothing
Layer4: nothing
Layer5: Everything becomes the chosen color.
Layer6: Painter's Servant loses its ability.
Layer7: All creatures are 1/1.

But Humility doesn't retroactively change what Painter does, it just takes the ability away.

[Maëlig]

cause now painter's servant and humility work together ;)

Completely missed this.
Assuming it is true, it does change things quite a bit imo, humility being such a great control card (even without manlands). I would go as far as to say it probably deserves multiple (most likely 3) slots MD, assuming you build the deck around it (in which case you want some backup).
This makes genju of the fields a very nice singleton MD tutor target. Elspeth and DoJ also looks like increasingly attractive options.

On another note, I'm currently playing the following SB-package against CB :
1 Aura of Silence (tutor target)
3 Ray of Distortion
I'm thinking of changing it to a playset of auras, but I'm a bit scared of the increasing number of 3cc seeing play, making it hard to resolve an aura with an active CB on the table. Has someone already tried this?

[pandabaer]

if it will not toallly change the deck it will at least give people the option to play a cheaper version without moat

[Carabas]

Does Saltblast deserve any consideration here?

Saltblast-3WW
Sorcery
Destroy target nonwhite permanent.

It can take out Goyf, it can work as a disenchant against most things that bother us, it can kill Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold to stop some stupid recursion tricks, it can kill goyf, bob... the list goes on. It'd be a sideboard slot, probably in place of some number of rays of distortion.

[Unknown2]

i've run 2 aura of silence and 3 ray in my SB for months now and have had no problems with it. I would not increase the aura number at all, though.

[ykpon]

if it will not toallly change the deck it will at least give people the option to play a cheaper version without moat

Moat is even better if you use Humility

[Valtrix]

I don't see why we would want to play saltblast as removal when we already have a lot of great answers in the main (halo/ring), and as a sideboard card it seems subpar versus more effective/efficient hate that we could bring in versus specific decks. I'd rather have ray to use twice against things I really need it against, versus something that has more targets. I don't want to side for variety, since I should have plenty of that already. I'm also not sure what you would exactly want to side out for it anyway, since you have the effective board hate, and a lot of the answers in the main are already pretty useful against anything you'd want to side it in against.

Also, it's really bad when painter is set on white :P

[Roman Candle]

Does Saltblast deserve any consideration here?

Saltblast-3WW
Sorcery
Destroy target nonwhite permanent.

It can take out Goyf, it can work as a disenchant against most things that bother us, it can kill Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold to stop some stupid recursion tricks, it can kill goyf, bob... the list goes on. It'd be a sideboard slot, probably in place of some number of rays of distortion.

99% of the time this'll just be a Ray of Distortion that won't Flashback. You have enough ways to handle creatures.

[Valtrix]

Also, this gets countered by counterbalance with force of will, which is pretty bad in my opinion.

[Valtrix]

I know double posts suck, but I have something about boarding that's really been on my mind, about sideboarding:

I love isochron scepter, but sometimes I'm really not sure its usefulness past the first game because of artifact hate/bounce, and I really don't want to have somebody 2-for-1 me with this deck particularly. However, we already have a lot of other targets, and thus it's not a complete issue, I still wonder. I've been siding it out a lot in favor of things that will do something and not get me 2-for-1ed (ray, aura, story circle)

What are thoughts on boarding for scepter? Take 2, 1, or 0 out against things that you know have hate for you?

On another note, what are thoughts on playing grindstone early, so that we only need 5 mana to combo out/6 mana to protect servant. I think that preboard it's usually pretty safe to play grindstone early, since you have plenty of other things that they need to save removal for that can end the game. Post-board it's a little riskier, but at the same time if they try to disrupt your combo, then it leaves you open for more control.

[Fossil4182]

Could Elspeth, Knight-Errant be a faster win condition than Sacred Mesa if they somehow stop the PainterStone combo? I know Mesa can make 2/2 flyers but its extremely mana intensive and doesn't do well if you need to start dropping threats around turn 4-5 as it will tie up too much mana prevent you from casting other spells as opposed to Elspeth which is less likely to get hit with CB and doesn't need a lot of help after its resolved.

[Roman Candle]

Could Elspeth, Knight-Errant be a faster win condition than Sacred Mesa if they somehow stop the PainterStone combo? I know Mesa can make 2/2 flyers but its extremely mana intensive and doesn't do well if you need to start dropping threats around turn 4-5 as it will tie up too much mana prevent you from casting other spells as opposed to Elspeth which is less likely to get hit with CB and doesn't need a lot of help after its resolved.

Sacred Mesa is tutorable. You only really need to go for it late game, since Quinn is pretty good at stalling.

[Nekrataal]

I was playtesting Quinn and it is a blast to play and surprisingly good (for me) also against decks packing counters. So I will bring Quinn to a tourney on Sunday (~25 ppl, expecting a lot of Aggro: Folks, Sligh, Zoo). In my playtesting EXP it became obvious that a lot of ppl do not know how to play the deck and once they are chanted and Pianter/Grindstone comes down they go "Argh, it is a combo deck". However I expect Game 2 to become much harder. when ppl pack their SB hate which will be at least 3 Grips usually. Sadly my feeling is that I have alot against aggro that can be sideboarded but not much against control or combo, whoch leaves me with a lot of dead mainboard cards eventually taht can not be replaced via SB. Even in theory this is hard because white lacks the cards or am I wrong on that?

Here is a current list derived from 4eeks one to utilize Humility under the new layer rulings:

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TP] Humility
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [10E] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [4E] Disenchant
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: Metaslots: 1x Humility, 1x Story Circle, 1x Spiritual Focus (wanted to pack something against Discard/Black Aggro)

[LostButSeeking]

Sadly my feeling is that I have alot against aggro that can be sideboarded but not much against control or combo, whoch leaves me with a lot of dead mainboard cards eventually taht can not be replaced via SB. Even in theory this is hard because white lacks the cards or am I wrong on that?

White has a lot of good ways to deal with combo. You’re running a LOT of them maindeck; trust me that Quinn is NOT a deck that rolls over and dies to combo. The problem is that your sideboard cards against combo are combo deck specific. What you want against (say) dredge is different than what you want versus belcher, ANT, solidarity or whatever. What’s the popular combo in your meta? You don’t have to have sideboard answers for all decks, just the decks you play games against.

[Shawon]

I've been thinking. Wouldn't the MD Halos be better served as additional Humilities? I've been toying with both Quinn and Rifter 2.0 and from my experience against aggro, Humility is practically 100% gg against them, combined with your other aggro-ass-kicking cards of course.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TP] Humility
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [10E] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [4E] Disenchant
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance

I think you should cut the 4th Tutor for the 3rd Dragon. 3 Tutor is consistent enough (and you effectively run at least 2 copies of each of your bullets) and E. Dragon is really helpful in finding your land-drops.

If you can, you might also want to fit the SB Decree MD. Decree of Justice is an amazing Game 1 card, whether it be in Landstill, Quinn, or Rifter. It catches people by surprise and it's effectively never a dead draw. I would go up to 2 maximum.

Wouldn't Ray of Distortion be better than Disenchant in this deck, or are you looking for a cheap answer? I think Seal of Cleansing is a better answer, since you tutor for it, as well as Abolish, because it can dodge Counterbalance, and you can freecast it. Perhaps 2 Disenchant -> Seal of Cleansing + Abolish = 2 Abolish?

[Valtrix]

About Humility:
I also don't feel like humility in any way replaces halo. No damage from one threat on turn 2 is usually a lot better than taking 1 damage from a few threats later in the game. I don't think you should ever cut all halos, because it's an incredibly versatile tutor card that I've never been disappointed to draw. (Also it all but guarantees that we have enough tools to beat combo.)

Although I haven't played with humility in a deck ever, I'm no so convinced that it deserves a spot in Quinn. Unlike decks such as rifter and landstill, we don't actually have a way to stop those 1/1s besides are regular removal, in which case we should have just removed the threats in play to begin with. It's sometimes hard for Quinn to stabilize fast enough, so still taking 1 damage from multiple sources is going to hurt us. As such I question using humility in this deck, unless we start playing Elspeth/decree/something. One mesa is hardly enough.

Though, it's entirely possible I'm looking at humlity's purpose wrong. I can see it being marginally useful against zoo...But pretty much any other kind of aggro is still going to have multiple threats on board. Having pulse definitely makes the card a lot better, though.

About Pulse of the Fields:
I haven't got a chance to throw this card around yet, but I'm starting to think that it's a great tool for us. 3 definitely feels like too many. I know that I'd like to just run 1 field, but I think it may be good enough now to run 2. The chances that we'll see both is actually pretty unlikely, so that's probably good. What I really like is that this screws anything with burn spells hardcore (burn, zoo, sligh), and since I've seen them on the rise it seems good. I also think that against random things it can help us stabilize, and this is essentially dealing with one creature a turn, since most things don't get above 4 :)

@Nekrataal's list:
Decree of justice was never actually that useful for me when I played it. I didn't like it as a win condition, because it was so slow, and as a stall mechanism it just really sucked. I feel that by the time we have enough mana to make it useful we might as well play mesa, or should just be able to combo out. I feel like we have better things to play.

See, I think that 3 dragon is too much. I'd rather run an extra land over the 3rd dragon. I think he's useful for shuffling and mana, but we're already so mana hungry that we don't always want to have to pay 2 to get a land. That can be a real pain, and multiple dragons really don't help us.

Now about the 3 vs 4 tutor, I'm a bit unsure. I'm such a huge fan of tutor, though I understand it's card disadvantage, and people with more play experience than me with the deck recommend only 3.

There is no reason to run another abeyance in the board. If you don't want to run 3 main, then just run 2. There's never a time where you want to side in abeyance against something where a different control card in your board would be better. Likewise, I think the same about keg. Disenchant was talked about, and I agree. We have plenty of general artifact/enchantment hate, but what we're really concerned about is counterbalance. In that respect aura of silence and ray are the best two solutions to it.

I also think ethersworn canonist is a much better answer against combo than rule of law, because it's not only cheaper, but gives them a clock. Also, decks playing duress can't get rid of it if it's in your hand to start. I occasionally board it in if I think I need a blocker too, but that's pretty rare. Sometimes our answers can be too slow.

I would go:
-1 abeyance
-2 disenchant
-1 powder keg
-1 rule of law
+1 ethersworn canonist
+1 story circle
+2 ray of distortion'
+1 (Other; I'm a fan of open the vaults, though I haven't played with it yet. More on that later.)

Gah, I have a lot more to write about, but I think this post is about long enough now :)

[Mono_Thematic]

See, I think that 3 dragon is too much. I'd rather run an extra land over the 3rd dragon. I think he's useful for shuffling and mana, but we're already so mana hungry that we don't always want to have to pay 2 to get a land. That can be a real pain, and multiple dragons really don't help us.

So paying 2 colorless is too much for a land, but paying 4 isn't? (2 to activate scrying sheets, 1 for the scrying sheets itself, 1 for SDT). Don't get me wrong I think you're right, thats why I don't run E-Dragon or Scrying Sheets (I splash Blue for real card drawing.)