Another thing to note about PP though is it protects Dragon from biting an StP. Is that, alongside protecting Moat and Halo worth two more mana? Probably not, but it does help the deck "get there" earlier.
Perhaps... I think a better question might be if it's worth running either, when Argivian Find already fulfills a similar role better. I can't remember ever Tutoring for Custody, even when I was facing Grips.
Edit: Updated the first post with my most recent list. Ditched Wing Shards and DoJ for +1 Halo/Ring/Top, and one each Mesa/Argivian Find maindeck. Tweaked the sideboard based on the cards I never found myself caring about.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Did you have troubles with decks that have recursions, like survival (or survial + vial) ?
Troouble with the fact that you cannot destroy enchantment/artifact maindeck? Or maindeck grave removal?
If enchantress plays seal of primordium you cannot combo with scepter lock, and he can outdraw you.
Or genesis/squee can recur things like 1x viridian zealot.
Icorid can outrace on turn 2/3, but it could be stopped by a turn one sensei/tutor for 1x tormod
Oblivion Ring can take out artifacts/enchantments.
To answer your question; while I did have a lot of trouble with graveyard recursion, I find that between Scepter-Chant and Painters-Stone, it just doesn't come up that much anymore. Mainly these days I worry about Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void and Devastating Dreams, and large quanitites of burn, and not much besides.
Tormod's Crypt could help Ichorid maindeck, but where else would it really be relevant? Is it worth a maindeck slot? Aggro-Loam is already a pretty good matchup game 1, since they have no maindeck answers to either combo, and their creatures are fairly easy for you to deal with. It seems better to me to rely on StP, Orim's Chant and Runed Halo to stall Ichorid until you can get Moat out or combo out, although I'll admit I haven't tested this matchup much.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
After reading IBA's report and list and my own experience with MWC I am finding the following an outline of where I'm looking to test
I'm keeping the Wing Shards because I find vs Thresh and other aggro counter based decks, to be very tough matchups.Especially with cards like Enlightend Tutor and Isochron Scepter often being liabilities.
Wing Shards might help a bit more vs them than Wrath, and it seems that the decks that fall to Wrath are usually vulnerable to Scepter Lock.
Everything else and the card numbers seem right on to me.
- IBA you have done some really nice work pushing the archtype development lately .
//NAME: Mighty Quinn
2 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Grindstone
2 Painters Servant
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Wing Shards
3 ?????
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Moat
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains
options I'm considering and comments from others about them
Main Deck:
3x Phyrexian Furnace - I'm not thrilled with them but they have utility and cantrip
3x Ray of Distortion - they Look like they might help answer some problems like counterbalance or Chalice and be relevent vs a good amount of decks ( I'm at least going to put them in the SB for testing)
2x Wrath
1x Tormod's Crypt
Tithe? + Snow Covered Forests? would you consider a Splash Color for Krosan Grip, and other sideboard options?
Sideboard:
I find a 4th Enlightened Tutor almost invaluable in the sideboarded because
when they work well i.e. many of the non-counterspell based decks often I just need to complete a reliably early combo or bullet to establish advantage.
Would a 4th Abeyance be a better option than the 2nd Argivian Find?
2x Argivian Find
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Sacred Ground
1x Jester's Cap
1x Story Circle
1x Pithing Needle
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Genju of the Fields
1x Powder Keg
1x Wrath of God
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
1x Hanna's Custody
anyones thoughts welcome on these, thanks
Well you could always go -3 Wrath, +3 Wing Shards. I dunno. Ideally I'd like Wrath, Wing Shards, Runed Halo and Oblivion Ring all in the same deck, but they seem to be jostling for room. I'm liking the third Oblivion Ring because it does address problem cards like Counterbalance and Chalice (especially good against the latter). I'm not sure if there's a correct balance of the removal suite at the moment, it might be more of a metagame decision. I've also found Runed Halo to be really good against Thresh, though, as they usually run just 2-3 creatures. Ditto to Landstill. Now, Counterslivers or Merfolk it's probably a lot suckier against...
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Originally Posted by mugs
Tithe only grabs plains. Tithe + Savannah would do it. Alas, there are no Snow-Covered Savannahs.
info.ninja
So, this seems like a somewhat safe place to post my mono-white, since I've been working on a list too =P So, first I'm going to post what I've been tossing around on Workstation for a list, and then I'm going to put some comments after it. I have little concept for a board right now.
// Lands (25)
13 [OV] Plains
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
2 [MI] Sacred Mesa
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
3 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [LG] Moat
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [8E] Circle of Protection: Black
SB: 1 [8E] Circle of Protection: Green
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: White
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [TE] Hanna's Custody
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [WL] Serenity
Really, I like having permanants for a lockdown, because I can fetch them with enlightened tutor, and I really need one to shut things down.
Right now I'm wondering about a couple things about your list:
The first is painter-combo. Is this the right win condition the deck needs? I mean, it's faster than most other options once played, but it does require two pieces, and I don't like that there's almost no creatures (except dragon), so it should be easy for removal to target him. I can't help feel that something like sacred mesa/decree of justice would be a more resilent choice over him, although slower. Painter does help a little bit early game in blocking little creatures, but that's about it.
The second thing I'm curious about is the scrying sheet/top engine. Has this engine proved very effective? I guess it's certainly a good way to use mana, and having 4 non-basics is hardly much of a threat to wasteland over 0. Top also seems like a solid inclusion, to help find the appropriate answer for the deck being played against. When I've been working on mono-white, I tried running crucible + horizon canopy/flagstones, which I liked a lot as well. I felt that crucible possibly opened up more opportunities as well, such as wastelands to help stall, or perhaps recurring mishra's factories, or some other land techs. Though, mishra's factory could really only be considered a win condition with humility, and blinkmoth nexus is too slow. I don't want to get too complicated with the deck, but when I played this way, I always liked to see my crucibles. (perhaps that was because I was too reliant on it.)
I've never really cared for eternal dragon, because I don't like to spend early turns cycling for a land, and when I've run mesa/decree, I generally find that he's too slow for that. However, I do like that he's a recurring win condition (as long as he doesn't bite it to StP), so he might be worth including. Time is definitely a factor in matches.
I'm unsure what to do for a removal/denial suite as well. 4 StP is obviously an auto-include for how good it is, but after that it's a hard choice. I'm thinking that 2-3 oblivion ring is probably the right choice as well, since it gives you more outs against troublesome permanants that aren't creatures, but also giving you the flexibility to hit them. At least 2 runed halo also seems solid. This is always a 1-for-1, but can start shutting down decks like Threshold with a low number of threats. This also gives you some more power against combo, naming Tendrils. I'm almost wondering if this could be somehow increased to a 4-of to further enhance matchups against low variety of threats. Also, it's cheap, but it easily dies to EE. As for spells to kill things, wing shards and wrath of god are the obvious next choices. I'd probably run shards only in addition to, just to be sure I'm getting the best trade for my spells.
Also, I like the 4th abeyance against blue and combo. Also helps us dig, and can shut some people off mana with fetchlands for a turn if used early game.
Not sure about ischron scepter. I've really been liking that combo, and scepter is still really good with swords, and at least acceptable with abeyance as an engine. Random wins without tutoring are powerful.
Okay, I said way too much, so I'll try not to say much more, but I'd like to discuss this deck with you IBA, so see if we can catch each other on AIM sometime =)
You try finishing a game against Landstill with Decrees instead of Painters and Stones. It's far less fun.
Yes. Lands that draw cards are good. Read: Library of Alexandria.
It also gives you a way to find your kill.
It won't turn off their mana unless they're really incompetent or not paying attention. They'll always just pop in response if they need the mana.
I came to the conclusion, at the Richie Profitt tournament, that decks that can't play and finish three games in 50 minutes inherently suck, statistically. So, yes, I'm a huge fan of the combo finish (I should mention that Lego Army Man was the first one to suggest it to me in this deck), I think it's what actually makes the deck highly viable and pushes it past something like Landstill, Truffle Shuffle, It's the Fear, etc...
The Scrying Sheet engine has been amazing for me. Never drawing land and making a land drop each turn, while digging rapidly through your deck, is just really, really good. And it doesn't even take up a spell slot. It's hard to think of a card draw engine I'd prefer even outside of White.
Eternal Dragon offers a lot of flexibility. He shuffles for Top, smooths mana, beats, blocks, and keeps coming back (usually). I wouldn't say that I'd never cut him, but Dragon's just a damned good card. DoJs might be better as kill conditions in that slot, but offer less versatility.
I don't think a fourth Abeyance is a terrible idea, but there are a number of cards jostling for room, and I've got to say it's one of the few slots in the deck where I've never felt any pressure at all to cut or add. Seven Chant-effects is already quite a few, and you don't want Chant itself as a 3-of since it's part of your hard lock.
Scepter is really good. I feel like I ought to be running more, but I always seem to find it at the right time as a 2-of.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Arctic Flats? Sure cip tapped, but it provides access to Krosan Grip awesomeness
Referring to the art on Stasis:
It can't be searched for. Honestly, I'm not sure I even want Grips. Aura of Silence is a lot more powerful against a lot of decks that could be problematic, such as Blah-Stompy or Enchantress or Armageddon Stax. I'd rather run more Auras first.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
My bad. I thought it was a cip tapped snow savannah. However, the decks you mentioned tend to end up with plenty of mana to spare, and power out their artifacts and enchantments anyways. If Quinn had better control of the stack, to allow for playing priority tricks, then Aura of Silence may suffice. But without that, I feel like the value of instant speed, split second ownage cannot be ignored.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
While it's true that those decks can get around Aura by around turn 5-6 usually, they also completely suck it to the combo-win or Scepter-Chant. So generally all I'm trying to do is get that running. For this reason I'd rather run Aura.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I have to say, I'm insanely impressed with the new direction of this deck. Kudos to IBA and Lego for the idea and its execution.
The only curiosity I see in the list posted on the previous page is the 3x E Tutor. While perhaps not the strongest number in game 1, it seems that you would almost always want as many chances to tutor up your bullets from the board.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
If it helps I tested a similar deck last year mwc combo with scepter lock and many of the card numbers IBA has, I found indendently also - to be correct. notably.
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Enlightned Tutor
1 Moat
Basically. Multiple E. Tutors suck a lot. I guess there's an argument for one in the board, but I've actually found board space to be pretty tight. The tutors offer a lot of redundancy with putting together different board states, depending on the opponent, but you don't want to be choked by them. And Top also duplicates the effect to a large extent.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Despite my efforts, I find myself unable to figure out what the Grindstone and the Painters Servant in the sideboard are for? You already run them maindeck, so what's the point?
Also, the Defense Grid in the SB seems unuseful, this is not a tempo deck and opposing control decks can just wait until they have the mana to circumvent the effect and use their counters to anyway. Tutoring for a Scepter and imprinting Abeyance or Orims Chant seems much more useful.
When I'm more worried about removal/counters, or the combo is going to be my first line of offense rather than a delayed win condition (such as, for instance, when time is an issue), I'll side in the extra parts of the combo. The third Painter comes in especially often against StP, for instance.
Defense Grid is more usful than it might seem. While this deck is still slow, it does have the option of winning turn 6-7 realistically (earlier occasionally) through the combo. And the mere threat of Defense Grid forcing through the combo can force them to keep mana open even where they have free counters. And besides the combo, it can also just force through all the silver bullets. That said, it's not one of the most important cards in the SB, and could be cut.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Have you considered scour in the board? It seems like a good answer to counterbalance and this deck really needs some help in that department. Might be a little narrow but counterbalance tends to be everywhere at most "high level" tournaments.
they haunt minds...
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