Hi guys. i played Quinn once a few years ago but couldn't leave it behind me so i try to revive it again.
My thoughts are on Mono White or a red splash. For cheaper removal aka Pyroclasm, for a one off Blood moon to kill some greedy mana base decks out of nowhere with Tutor and maybe some Blasts to improve Miracle?
As said before our combo matchup is quite good, fast aggro is a problem which is solved via Pyroclasm(altough Porphyry Nodes could help there too, but never tested it) and Control (Miracle), where blasts against counterbalance and jace, or to bring our key cards through seems good.
What to you guys think?
I would also go for some fetchies to enable more shuffling and for terminus with top. With red even a faithless looting seems useable even with RIP/Helm as main wincon.
About Myth Realized i think it is the only creature removal target in our deck once activated and get easily sworded, decayed, blocked, bounced,.... Does anybody have here some experience with it yet?
Sample decklist out of my head how i would play it kind of for Mono-W:
(23)Lands:
15x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Fetchland for Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
(9)Win:
4x Rest in Peace
4x Helm of Obedience
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
(11)Permanents:
1x Humility
1x Moat
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Isochron Scepter
4x Sensei's Divining Top
(17)Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Orim's Chant
3x Council's Judgment
3x Terminus
3x Enlightened Tutor
(15)SB:
1x Nevermore
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Wrath of God
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Ray of Distortion
1x Porphyry Nodes
2x Silence/Abeyance
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ghostly Prison
2x Hallowed Moonlight
For the lands i don't know the right numbers for fetchies yet and i like the idea of having some utility lands in there like you guys have (Desert, Buried Ruin, Mishras Factory, Kor Haven, Maze of Ith,...). So i'm looking to add such a land too. What's your experiences with them?
As wincondition should be another alternative inside the 60 cards. In former times i played Sacred Mesa but this card is so slow and clunky. As i said earlier i'm not sold on Myth Realized yet. Maybe Blind Obedience or anything that is good as a one off? I think if Myth Realized is worth the space you need at least 3 and can cut some helmcombo pieces.
Silverbullets in main- and sideboard for tutors and removal. Council's Judgment against Planeswalkers. Nothing special here.
Not sure if Hallowed Moonlight is good enough but it cantrips if not needed and works against Tokens, Reanimator, Show and Tell, Grenn Sun's Zenith, Aether Vial,..... so definitly worth of testing. Finds a possibility in nearly every deck.
A WR list will follow.
Last edited by Gollus; 07-21-2015 at 10:15 AM.
Drakes claim to be dragons-until the dragons show up.
The dust can count only to 50.
Angels attacked them,............ with swords.
I have been on the red splash for a while now. This is the list I am testing at the moment.
Land (24)
15 Snow-covered Plains
1 Snow-covered Mountain
1 Plateau
3 Scrying Sheets
3 Arid Mesa
1 Kor Haven
Creatures (1)
1 Ethersworn Canonist
Instant (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutors
3 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
2 Unexpectedly Absent
1 Lightning Helix
Sorcery (3)
2 Council's Judgment
1 Wrath of God
Artifact (8)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
Enchantment (8)
3 Rest in Peace
3 Myth Realized
1Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Plainswalker (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
This list is just what I have been testing as of late. There are a few teat spots that have been in flux. The SB is a work in progress as always.
@Kinda - My gut says that the new orb at 5 is a little slow but I am willing to test it out to see.
My current list is below. I have o-ring over council due to show and tell. I'm open to suggestion on miracles though. Now that mentor is around the matchup feels incredibly awful. Sideboard ing is awkward since you need swords. Jace is still a huge problem. I might test the orb over my md leyline. Desert is a pet card...but good with humility. In theory it's good vs death and taxes but just gets waste landed. A fetch would likely be better.
17x snow plains
4x scrying sheets
1x desert
1x ancient den
4 top
3 e tutor
Protection: 20
4 swords
4 oblivion ring
2 ensnaring bridge
1 leyline of sanctity
1 humility
1 runed halo
2 pithing needle
1 isochron scepter
2 orim's chant
2 abeyance
Combo: 8
4 rest in peace
4 helm of obedience
Creature Package: 2
1 ethersworn canonist
1 elspeth, knight errant
SB:
3 terminus
2 leyline of sanctity
3 trinisphere
1 orim's chant
3 ray of distortion
1 humility
1 porphyry nodes
1 never more
Last edited by kinda; 07-22-2015 at 02:06 AM.
With this list you only splash red for a lightning helix?! I don't think thats worth it. You can kill with helix just if you have it in the isochron and for that you don't even need red mana.
How's your experience with kor haven and Myth realized? Doesn't myth eat all the removal the opponent has for creatures and permanents?
A WR list i can imagine would be like:
Land (23)
12 Snow-covered Plains
2 Snow-covered Mountain
1 Plateau
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Arid Mesa
Instant (9)
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutors
3 Orim's Chant
Sorcery (9)
3 Council's Judgment
2 Terminus
2 Faithless Looting
2 Pyroclasm
Artifact (8)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Isochron Scepter
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Pithing Needle
Enchantment (10)
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
1 Humility
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Blood Moon
3 Myth Realized
Plainswalker (1)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB:
(15)SB:
1 Nevermore
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Terminus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Ray of Distortion
1 Pithing Needle
4 Pyroblast
1 Orim's Chant
1 Wear/Tear
with more Faithless or/and the right meta you can even play Blasts main or more Blood Moon in the SB.
If Myth Realized is worth the slots you can even add some Lightning Bolts instead of the Swords to be able to finish him directly and remove blocker without giving life.
I have to start testing the deck to see if the splash is needed or what cards to run.
Drakes claim to be dragons-until the dragons show up.
The dust can count only to 50.
Angels attacked them,............ with swords.
As an fyi, I consider ensaring bridge the best protection spell in the deck. Pyroclasm in the boards feels strong as does pyroblast. Don't forget blood moon turns off sheets. I would suggest trying 4 rip/helm. Some will get countered/blown up/discarded etc. and rip is great to just run out. It has so much impact beyond comboing. Rip hoses dredge, good vs reanimator, shuts down tarmogy, loam, deathrite, past in flames,knight of the reliquary, snap aster, delve, with rip in play you can show and tell in helm...etc.
Edit: skeptical on faithless looting over scroll rack. I think I will be testing -1 ekspeth, -1 something else, +2 decree of justice to help with my planeswalker issue.
Myth has been good for me so far. It provides a clock which we need. It can get huge fast with more than one top. It provides a blocker that can eat goyfs and anything else that wants to get through on the ground. Yes sometimes it eats a removal spell but if it means something else doesn't get destroyed that is fine with me because it is a must answer treat. I like leading with it one on turn 1 and playing top on turn 2 because the longer it stays in play the more of a treat it becomes.
I really like Elspeth against miracles 1.0 as it is a hard to remove treat for them. I have very little experience against version 2.0. But I found that sequencing was the key to winning games by trying to bait out their counter spells with treats. Counterbalance is the nuts against us I will even go as far as naming top with needle.
Scroll Rack is ok I was running one for a while as the 4th top. It was only good in two situations that I found. And that was 1. Putting Terminus back on top of your library because it was in your opening hand or an early draw. 2. It allows you to dig deep by activating sheets to draw some lands then put them back with rack to get even deeper.
That being said I have been less and less satisfied with Terminus. It is awful to have in your opening 7 or see in the first 3 turns of the game due to low impact on the board. Plus at 6 mana it is to slow to cast. I have gone back to 1 Wrath of God mana to reflect this I think they belong in the 75 somewhere but I have not liked them in the main as of late.
Yes the red splash is for one main decked Lighting Helix. It started when I tried it out as a Isochron Scepter target I was already playing 3 fetches so adding a single Snow-Covered Mountain was easy to do and made it so I could actually cast it which does happen sometimes. I normally hide the red splash game one if I can as it makes the sideboard better. This made me add the Plateau. I tried moon effects but they weren't the best. Turn 3 moon is slow without sol lands. Sometimes you can steal a game if they don't see it coming but tutoring for it allows them to fetch a basic before it resolves.
I was tinkering with the idea of going back to painter/grindstone maybe out of the board but space is limited. With the red splash we could play welder to make it more reliable and dodge removal. Painters also make the blasts better as you can name blue and blow up anything you want including their basic lands. I agree with Kinda about how good Rest in Peace is against the feild. And don't see myself cutting it anytime soon.
I do like the idea of faithless looting as a way to draw and filter cards out of the deck and the flashback is nice as well. I will have to test it out for myself* and I will get back to you guys about it. Not sure what I want to cut to make room for it but that is what testing is for. I like that is deck is getting some discussion again and don't think I will ever put this deck down.
Of course, Ensnaring Bridge is very strong and at 3 mana faster than Humility, Moat, Wrath. But with Myth Realized its contra-productive, so at maximum a one off to squeeze in.
I thought you can cut a few Helm/Rip pieces if you play more finisher in Myth Realized. Isn't a 2/3 Split not enough? Maybe 2/4 if RiP is so good alone?
The Blood Moon is mainly just for the greedy decks with low to no basics. Turn 3 is strong enough. I played a one off in a UWr ThopterControl Deck and it was a good tutor target. If they have a fetchland you just don't tutor for it. They won't expect it anyway, but you can move it to the sideboard as well. But if i splash red i have one in my 75 for sure.
As for all dead cards like Moon against basics, Humility, Wrath, Pyroclasm against combo,.... the Faithless Looting shine.
A one of Scroll Rack may be good too with Terminus but i wouldn't go below 4 Top. It is just that good and needed and with Myth you can use 2 as well or discard to Faithless.
Isn't Decree way to slow against planeswalker? you need at least 3-4 Tokens and they may have more loyalty-counters, removal, blocker so a turn 3-5 planeswalker is still not really answered by Decree.
@WarpWorld:
How does your sideboard look like with the red splash?
i wouldn't go back for Painter. It is just that fragile. In Helm/Rip every piece is usefull on their own. Painter is alone bad and just the blasts doesn't change that and he dies to every removal played. Grindstone is kind of usefull alone but not like Helm to steal a creature or mill x. A Welder has to be build around with artifactlands and so on so you have to change your main as well just for the combo. Buried Ruin is better in this case i think.
I really have to start testing. I need more sparetime^^
Drakes claim to be dragons-until the dragons show up.
The dust can count only to 50.
Angels attacked them,............ with swords.
I'm not sold on myth in the main. 25% of decks run swords according to mtgtop8. And...myth is the only relevant target in the main vs decks with swords...outside of rare canonist plus scepter Chant online situations. I will be trying mentor in the board like miracles does.
Decree does feel too slow. But the tokens have pseudo haste and decree works well with humility. It might just be bad.
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroclasm
2 Magma Jet
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Terminus
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Blind Obedience
1 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Blood Moon
(27)
As I said it is a mess. I don't have a set 15 at the moment. This is a list of stuff that I have been testing or cut at some point. I try and adjust it depending on what I think I will see in the meta.
I think Lightning Helix is the best burn spell for the main as it gains life and that is relevant. Magma Jet is good for its ability to scry and filter our draws.
Having access to red opens up Wear // Tear which has been good. It can be imprinted onto Scepter which is nice as you get to choose which half you want to cast.
I had a chance to play a few games yesterday with faithless looting and I am not sold. Having to pitch 2 cards was rough at times. I also tested a few games with Magmatic Insight and it felt better discarding a land. But I will get some more games with both soon but right now I am leaning towards Insight as we play RiP and the flashback doesn't always happen.
My thing with Myth is that they have to answer it because it gets bigger and bigger. You can even add counters to it at end of turn or as a trick if you have nothing else to use the mana on. Mean while you keep playing your game plan which grows it. Even if you don't start attacking with it right away and hold it back on defense for a few turns while it grows. This is nice in matchups where you want it to be big enough to get past a bolt. If it eats a swords that is fine I will gladly take a few extra life points. If it eats an abrupt decay that's fine because something else didn't like RiP. And when it doesn't eat a removal spell it provides a decent clock. Can I cut it. Sure, I would go back to 2 MD Ensnaring Bridge and one of something else maybe the 4th top or another silver bullet. But for now I like it and will keep jamming it.
Decree is slow and it used to see play in this deck years ago along side Eternal Dragon. Better cards have come along since then that we don't need them anymore. I would give Secure the Wastes a try if you are looking for a token producer. Cycling decree means it can not be countered but it is more mana intense. The choice is yours.
Hi, i tested a mono W version now a little bit. The list is:
(23)Lands:
15x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Fetchland for Plains
4x Scrying Sheets
(12)Win:
4x Rest in Peace
3x Helm of Obedience
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Myth Realized
(9)Permanents:
1x Humility
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Runed Halo
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Isochron Scepter
4x Sensei's Divining Top
(16)Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Orim's Chant
3x Council's Judgment
2x Terminus
3x Enlightened Tutor
(15)SB:
1x Nevermore
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Ray of Distortion
3x Porphyry Nodes
3x Pithing Needle
1x Ghostly Prison
2x don't remember right now
What i can say from my testing is as follows:
Myth realized is strong indeed. It feels so nice to have something to play turn 1 next to Top. And as said it draws their removal out of their hand. Counter, Decay, i got it needled one game instead of helm. It's bolt save with 4 counter and sorcery speed Removal. The only card you don't really wanna see targeting it is swords but even in this situation you get life back.
I testet from the beginning with Myth so i can't compare it to a moat, bridge list right now, but i think it is stronger with myth because of not just being all controlish. I won a game with 3 neddled Myths at 6,7,8 counters out by finding a Judgment and swinging for lethal.^^
Fetchlands are very good in here to shuffle the library for Top.
The snow engine on the other hand felt too slow. With myth beeing less control and faster, the games aren't that grindy and the snow engine just gets you maybe 1 -2 lands if you activate it even once.
What felt very very strong in nearly all games are the Council's Judgment. Untargetet permanent removal is just so good. Handles Planeswalker, True name nemesis, and everything else. Only bad thing about it is that it can't get rid off lands.
The worst card is Porphyry Nodes. Seems good on paper but it doesn't do what you want it to do. You get the dmg from aggro because its in your upkeep and then it dies with only 1 creature destroyed.
Needle on the other hand was very good in many games. Naming annoying lands like, Maze of ith, Rishadan port, Trespasian stage, or things like Aether vial, equipments and so on.
Runed Halo ,Isochron scepter and terminus felt strange. Strong in some situations and very bad at others.
It's the same with chant. most times i just used it to buy some time to build up mana. A removal spell would have done the same with the benefit of trading 1 vs 1 instead of 1 vs time.
Even against miracles it isn't that good with Counterbalance out.
So it's just very good against combo and aggro. But is it worth 4x main deck? I will cut it to 3 or even 2 with the rest in the SB.
Next i will test the red splash.
I also like the idea of a little Blue Splah for Energy Field just to be faster in protection against Aggro and to combo even better with RiP. In this case you can even add some Brainstorm to strengthen the Terminus. But i wouldn't go further.
Spells 20 :
4 tutor
4 swords
2 entreat
3 judgment
3 terminus
4 Brainstorm
Permanents 17 :
4 rip
3 energy field
1 humility
1 moat
1 elspeth
4 top
3 helm
Lands 23:
4 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
2 mishras factory
1 tundra
1 Island
13 plains
Drakes claim to be dragons-until the dragons show up.
The dust can count only to 50.
Angels attacked them,............ with swords.
I pretty much agree with your mono white comments. Porphyry nodes is the best 1-2cc eutor target I know of for creature heavy decks. It usually eats 1-2 critters and buys a turn of opponent doing nothing which is solid. I still haven't tried myth but I have played stone forge before for similar reasons. I like councils but o-ring is better vs Omni. Don't forget orim's is good vs combo and blue counter walls.
The blue list looks terrible? It has no line of play to beat combo and isn't playing scrying sheets so it's not Quinn.
Quinners!
Played magic for the first time since August today. Will be dusting off Quinn next Tuesday. Any new cards/suggestion/results/ideas?
So here is what I've sleeved up currently:
14 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Flooded Strand
2 Kor Haven
1 Karakas
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
3 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Council's Judgment
3 Terminus
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Leyline of Sanctity
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Trinisphere
1 Nevermore
1 Rule of Law
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Karmic Justice
2 Pithing Needle
2 Aura of SIlence
1 Wrath of God
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Porphyry Nodes
I keep wanting to find a spot for the fourth Top, but can't justify cutting anything. I keep eyeing the two Kor Haven as unnecessary, but I need the mana generation, so any reduction there should be land regardless. I also wonder if my creature removal package is too large, and if room could be made there. Overall I feel the main is about where I want, I'm liking the 1 of enchantments to tutor up as needed. Depending on the local meta, I might swap the Runed Halo or Leyline of Sanctity for a Pithing Needle main.
As far as the sideboard goes, I'm still struggling to find a tertiary wincon beyond RiP-Helm and Elspeth. I've found success previously with Luminarch Ascension, but that was with a Parfait build with a enchantment based lock helped along with Greater Auramancy for added resilience. I keep eyeing Monastery Mentor as a awesome source of damage, turning running Tops into exponential damage, but we'd shooting ourselves in the foot with Moat or Humility in play. Unlike Elspeth who plays nice with the 4-cost enchantments, we're playing right into our own trap. You could argue to just side them out whenever you'd side in Monastery Mentor, but those matchups should be the ones we're advantaged to already, those without constant combat pressure providing a clock.
I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions. Thanks guys.
I also resurrected my version of this deck this week and went 3-1 at my LGS. Lost to burn (half a turn too slow), and beat Death and Taxes, RUG Delver, and Goblins (bring on the creatures!).
I'm running a BW version myself, and the black really helps with the fast aggro matchups. I've been testing out Zealous Persecution (efficient, but limited use outside of matchup), Black Sun Zenith (stronger, slower, gives shuffle effect for tops), and my personal favorite Withering Wisps (which can be kept online with Elspeth). It also gives you Engineered Plague, Dread of Night, and discard out of the board, all of which help shore up tough matchups.
The archetype seems pretty solid at the moment with Omni-Tell on the decline.
I've been using 4x Mishra's Factory to reasonable success as my tertiary win-con/extra defensive measure. I use them in the slot you have 2 Kor Haven, and run 2 fewer basics. You have to be a bit careful it doesn't eat a swords/bolt, so sometimes it's just a colorless land, but it holds off fast aggro creatures (or kills them, you'll be amazed how often people forget it's there/pumps itself), can't be countered (although getting terminused is rough so never animate more than 1 at a time vs miracles), and plays nice with humility/elspeth.
I've tried Myth Realized, but think it works better in a Parfait type build where you can protect it with Greater Auramancy and the like. It usually just ate an abrupt decay/rec sage/plow at an inopportune time. You could board in Mentor post-board maybe, when they've removed a lot of their creature hate, but if they know you run elspeth they probably will keep a decent amount of removal in.
I generally mainboard a needle because I don't run Council's judgement, so dealing with planeswalkers is awkward in a board-stall. With CJ mainboarded like your list, it's slightly less vital but still nice to have if you can find the space. I find runed halo to be more specialized than Needle. It doesn't protect you from tokens (young pyro, Marit Lage, entreat, geist, Mentor, germ tokens, Elspeth etc..) or decks that have mutiple angles of attack (goyf + delver, elves, merfolk for example), or Emrakul annihilator triggers so a lot of major win-cons are totally immune to it. It also can't be dropped turn 1 vs Belcher when that's relevant. Basically Runed Halo will occasionally protect you from slower glass-cannon decks, but pithing needle has the potential to disrupt a lot more strategies (name wasteland, vial, thespian's stage, Port, SFM, Jace, Wirewood symbiote, deathrite shaman, etc.).
That's just my personal experience, but I run a slightly different list so results may vary.
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