[Deck] B/g/w Deadguy Rock

[Hanni]

@Hanny

I may once again be saying rubbish, BUT the reason the original Dark Horizons list ran Vindicate over sinkhole is that if you are attempting the tempo paly and draw it early, you wreck your opponent's manabase; if you draw that on the late game, it is not a wasted card. Sinkhole is not used anymore because drawing it after turn 3-4 is useless (remember the earlier team america played it and now they don't). Unless of course, you are running a LD deck, but in that case we need smallpox, and the whole package (crucible/loam etc).

You listed 22 lands in a deck that is EXREMELY mana-hungry. But we don't have brainstorms or ponders to search for lands (and these costs are agressive, I see a lot of double black). Also I didn't understand the savannah, you will almost never fetch it since you always need double black.

Still on the manabase issue, there are 10 fetchlands, 0 basics, and no way to protect the lands. This deck is more likely to get a wasteland then return home (the deck wants to play tapped out, meaning you can't spare fetches without cracking every time).

You must decide if you want a tempo list or a control list, and there is a line between these two that not everyone is aware of.

Again, sorry, I don't want to start a flamewar nor be an asshole. I'm just discussing about one of the decks I like most (the rock-type decks).

That's not flame, nor being an asshole. That was a perfectly fine assessment. I posted that disclaimer because of the shit people were saying in the other thread I made.

22 lands is probably 1-2 too few, unless I fit in some Libraries or something.

Sinkhole may or may not be worth it, but there are a few top tier decks that they are good against right now. I'd like to at least do some testing with them against a gauntlet, before completely dismissing them.

The Savannah might not be necessary, but I think having the option to fetch it is nice. I need to do more playtesting to see often I actually fetch for it.

I didn't include any basics because the deck wants access to all of its colors early, and it wants BB and GG. If the deck needs to run more lands total, that's one thing... but I'm not sure that basics is where this deck wants to be. I did have a single Swamp in there at one point, though.

[Sughayyer]

@Hanni
Take a look at my last post at The Rock thread, where I put 2 lists - one "midrange" with mother of runes, and the other more tempo-based. I achieved those by talking with my teammates, and I think that you, as I have, will like the second one.

On one more note, I am currently playing BW deadguy ale (but a different build than these running around), but I'm really dying to sleeve my BGW again.

[Hanni]

I looked at your decklists, and there are some things I like and some don't, but both lists look solid.

I did some thinking on it, and I actually do like Dark Confidant in here. It's not a big fast clock like Tombstalker is, but it does do alot of good things in here. As many people have mentioned over and over in this thread and others, black lacks the cantrips and thus the consistency of blue decks. Dark Confidant himself may be a horrible beater, but he can still swing for 2 on a clean board, and the card advantage can easily turn into board advantage with this deck. I'd much rather run Dark Confidant than Top or Sylvan Library, since Confidant can actually swing. Top is a mana sink, and Library only provides card advantage for significant life loss. Top definitely doesn't fit in the aggressive shell. Library is good, but I feel as though Confidant is better.

The most recent list I posted went down to 1 Tombstalker, and I can justify cutting it to make room for a playset of Confidants. I've used Confidant in this deck before (as far back as 2007 when I originally made this thread), so I know how good he can be. Tombstalker was a big reason for not playing him, but without Tombstalker, I think he's worth fitting back in.

I'm not sure how well 3 Terravore is going to work without Sinkhole, but I see no reason why he wouldn't be large enough by the time he comes down, without them. A couple of fetches in both yards, and a single Wasteland makes him a 6/6 Trample (bigger than Tombstalker, still has evasion), so we'll see.

With Confidant, I'm not sure whether the deck actually needs another land now. I'll toss the extra land in anyway, but this could also become the 4th Abrupt Decay, a single Umezawa's Jitte, a single Sylvan Library, etc.

Here's my updated list:

B/G/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

Spells (22)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

I could also do 4 Decay 3 Vindicate instead, but I'm going to stick to Vindicate for now for its ability to deal with stuff larger than 3cc, and its ability to hit lands. This may change after more playtesting.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'd like to update the OP and add a Primer, when I get the time to.

EDIT 2: Things I am going to consider while testing:

Is the 23rd land necessary, or can I cut back down to 22? If I can cut back down to 22, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

Would I rather have the 4th Decay instead of the 4th Vindicate?

Do I need 3 Terravore, or is 3 too many? If 3 is too many and I cut one, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

[Sughayyer]

The list is more to my liking now! :D
1) do you need 11 discard spells?
2) reliquary without maze? WHYYYYYYYYYY? :(
3) too many 3 cmc cards. this WILL get clunky. suggestion: take 4 vindicates away, add 2 pulse. I know, pulse doesn't break lands, and it seems you are stick to that idea.... it's a bad idea. Breaking lands via vindicate is useful for providing tempo advantage i.e, it is paired with mox diamond and hymnn to tourach, and then if you get vindicate too late, it is still a "generic" removal. But LD doesn't work anymore. Pulse provides multi-targetting. You could use Deed instead.

I am saying all this because playing BGW we have 2 issues: we must be REDUNDANT (no brainstorm and jace for us) and we must be EFFICIENT (make sure all cards are good even as mid/late game draws). The mox diamond in my list utterly fails that last prerequisite, but on late draws it was used as another pinch for liliana (thinking of a way to fit her in again, she IS efficient).

Why am I playing BW deadguy ale now? (well it's a slightly different build than the one current running around) It's because almost every card is worth 2.

Blossom, Souls, Confidant, Stoneforge, Cabal Therapy, all these provide solid card advantage, and board presence. Also, relying on tokens simply dismiss your opponents' removal spells as useless, since you got an assembly line of creatures. I don't even know why I brought this up.... who knows, maybe I'm sleepy

[Hanni]

The list is more to my liking now! :D
1) do you need 11 discard spells?
2) reliquary without maze? WHYYYYYYYYYY? :(
3) too many 3 cmc cards. this WILL get clunky. suggestion: take 4 vindicates away, add 2 pulse. I know, pulse doesn't break lands, and it seems you are stick to that idea.... it's a bad idea. Breaking lands via vindicate is useful for providing tempo advantage i.e, it is paired with mox diamond and hymnn to tourach, and then if you get vindicate too late, it is still a "generic" removal. But LD doesn't work anymore. Pulse provides multi-targetting. You could use Deed instead.

1) I'm running 11 discard spells because of the strategy I am trying to execute (resource denial). With only 4-8 discard spells, my chances starting the game off with one are decreased. If I run only 4 1cc discard and 4 Hymn, my chances of having a discard as a turn 1 play decreases even further. I don't just want to snag the opponent's best card with a single discard spell and move on. With the focus being on resource denial, I want to hit the opponent with several discard spells to deplete their resources. 11 discard spells helps me do that better than 4-8 do.

2) Well, Maze is an option, but since it doesn't tap for mana, it would be replacing a spell instead of a land. I'm not against it in this deck, but I haven't included it in my list because I'm not sure that I want it. Spending my first turn after dropping a Knight, to search for Maze instead of attacking, is my biggest deterrent. It may end up being worth it to me, even in an aggressive shell like this, but that's my reasoning for not including it in the list I posted above.

3) The amount of 3cc spells may be a bit too clunky. My plan is to spend the early turns casting discard spells and removal, before dropping a fatty to close the game out. I'd like to do some more testing and examine my curve, before making any changes.

I disagree about the use of land destruction. The format has been slowly getting more mana hungry over the years, and we are actually at a point in time where it is the hungriest it has been in a long time.

Miracles is a deck that wants to reach 4 mana for Jace, as much mana as possible for Entreat the Angels, and a ton of other expensive spells like Counterspell, Counterbalance and Top, Snapcaster Mage + flashback, etc.

Show and Tell decks want 3 mana to cast its namesake card. The Sneak Attack lists need 4 mana to cast Sneak Attack, or 5 mana when they want to cast it and activate it in the same turn.

Maverick decks using GSZ can also be mana hungry, since GSZ makes each creature cost 1 more mana than normal. GSZ into Knight costs 4 mana; GSZ into Thrun can cost 5, for those that still run Thrun. Ooze itself is mana hungry, unless the Maverick player leaves it at 2/2. SFM, and equipment in general, is mana hungry. Maverick satisfies the mana hunger by running mana dorks, but it doesn't change the fact that Maverick is a mana hungry deck.

Goblins and Merfolk are similar to Maverick, except they use Vial instead of the mana dorks.

Even other lesser played decks like Nic Fit and Blade Control can be mana hungry.

Not every deck fits into this classification, but many of the decks that aren't mana hungry, replace the hunger with hefty color requirements. It's fairly common to find three color decks with lower curves that have heavy demands for colors. While attacking the manabase there might not be as rewarding as some of the mana hungry decks, cutting them off of the appropriate colors can often stunt their development far more than discard or non-land permanent removal would.

The land destruction plan is not going to be a strong plan every game, and I understand that. However, getting lands into the graveyard in and of itself is going to boost the size of Terravore, so there is still a benefit to blowing up lands. The fact that there are tons of colorless costs in this deck for Wasteland to tap for, and the fact that Vindicate is general permanent removal, makes the deck very versatile in its attack. I would not drop Vindicate for Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck.

I am saying all this because playing BGW we have 2 issues: we must be REDUNDANT (no brainstorm and jace for us) and we must be EFFICIENT (make sure all cards are good even as mid/late game draws). The mox diamond in my list utterly fails that last prerequisite, but on late draws it was used as another pinch for liliana (thinking of a way to fit her in again, she IS efficient).

Why am I playing BW deadguy ale now? (well it's a slightly different build than the one current running around) It's because almost every card is worth 2.

Blossom, Souls, Confidant, Stoneforge, Cabal Therapy, all these provide solid card advantage, and board presence. Also, relying on tokens simply dismiss your opponents' removal spells as useless, since you got an assembly line of creatures. I don't even know why I brought this up.... who knows, maybe I'm sleepy

I'd say 11 discard, 11 permanent removal, and 11 big creatures is pretty redundant.

This deck simply will not be as efficient as other decks like RUG Tempo, no matter how hard you try. This deck leverages tempo differently; it uses slower more expensive spells to disrupt the opponent and slow the game down. It's still similar to what RUG Tempo does... in other words, the result still ends up with the opponent not being able to execute their gameplan properly during the early game. The difference is that, since our spells are more expensive, we cannot drop creatures on the board at the same time. We disrupt without advancing our gameplan, while a deck like RUG Tempo disrupts while advancing their gameplan. That's just the nature of black disruption vs blue disruption; their stuff is free, and our stuff is not. We make up for this by dropping larger creatures in the midgame. A 1/1 Goose played on turn 2 that grows to 3/3 on turn 4 + a turn 3 Delver that flips to 3/2 on turn 4... is roughly the same clock as a 4/5 Goyf played on turn 3 + a 5/5 Knight of the Reliquary played on turn 4, that grows to 7/7 on turn 6. Deadguy Rock may not want to play its creatures quite that early in many cases, but you get the idea. Instead of needing to attack the opponent for a longer period of time with more cost efficient creatures that come down sooner, Deadguy Rocks creatures kill the opponent much faster once dropped but don't come down till later. The actual length of time it takes to kill the opponent is not drastically different, though. While RUG Tempo will still kill the opponent faster much of the time (especially if it uses its burn to finish the opponent off), it also runs out of gas alot easier if it isn't able to kill the opponent fast enough.

I'm not knocking on RUG with my above analysis; RUG is a very strong deck, with a history of dominating performances dating back as far as 2006, with few to no bad matchups. I'm only comparing some of the differences of between Canadian Threshold and Deadguy Rock.

Basically, my point is that this deck lacks the early game efficiency of a deck like RUG Tempo, but compensates for it with its stronger midrange. This deck is the midrange version of the 'tons of disruption early -> kill the opponent with a fast clock before they recover' gameplan, that's all.

The other big factor that you are neglecting is that the heavy discard + heavy permanent removal slows the game down drastically. The opponents best (and often most efficient) cards are discarded, and the permanents they do resolve get destroyed. The game drags into the midgame, but the only progression of the gamestate is the amount of lands in play. Neither player should have alot going on; the board should be pretty empty on both sides, and the hand sizes should be relatively small. At that point, dropping 3cc bombs is exactly what you want to be doing.

I will try and evaluate my curve during testing though. It may be a little too topheavy, like you said.

EDIT: I should have mentioned this, so I'll do it with an edit.

This deck has problems with hyper efficient decks that can spit out tons of spells faster than it can discard and destroy. That's why decks like Tendrils Storm and Sligh/Zoo* decks are bad matchups... but the thing is, those decks are currently seeing little play because of U/W Counterbalance Miracles, U/W/b Stoneblade, G/W Maverick, and U/G/r Canadian Threshold**. This was one of the reasons I used to run Pernicious Deed in this deck (there's a lengthy discussion about it in the first few pages of this thread, from back in 2007-2008). At that time, Deed was pretty good in the metagame... Storm decks were using EtW, the Zoo lists were becoming slower to beat the mirror, etc. Obviously, the format is different now, new cards have been printed, there are new dominant strategies, etc... so maindeck Deed is no longer warranted.

*In regards to Zoo, it's the Fast Zoo lists that this deck has problems with. The Big Zoo lists are generally a good matchup.*

**Although RUG Tempo is a hyper efficient deck that can spit out a ton of spells quickly, it is actually a favorable matchup for Deadguy Rock. This is because RUG Tempo focuses on disrupting its opponent instead of strictly focusing on accelerating its own gameplan. The discard in Deadguy Rock is a trump to the situational countermagic. RUG Tempo's aggro creatures do not apply as much pressure as Zoo, or apply pressure as quickly as Sligh. Deadguy Rock can reduce the card quality that the opponent gains with cantrips via discard, and has enough time to actually resolve removal (Plow/Decay). At which point, Deadguy Rock's larger midrange creatures are capable of outclassing RUG Tempo's smaller creatures. Deadguy Rock's removal is also effective at killing Delver and Goyf, while RUG Tempo's burn is only effective at killing Dark Confidant. This matchup is somewhat similar to Maverick vs Zoo... Maverick is not as fast and as efficient as Zoo at killing the opponent, but it has enough time to outclass Zoo with its superior midrange gameplan.**

[mmmetaphor]

I looked at your decklists, and there are some things I like and some don't, but both lists look solid.

I did some thinking on it, and I actually do like Dark Confidant in here. It's not a big fast clock like Tombstalker is, but it does do alot of good things in here. As many people have mentioned over and over in this thread and others, black lacks the cantrips and thus the consistency of blue decks. Dark Confidant himself may be a horrible beater, but he can still swing for 2 on a clean board, and the card advantage can easily turn into board advantage with this deck. I'd much rather run Dark Confidant than Top or Sylvan Library, since Confidant can actually swing. Top is a mana sink, and Library only provides card advantage for significant life loss. Top definitely doesn't fit in the aggressive shell. Library is good, but I feel as though Confidant is better.

The most recent list I posted went down to 1 Tombstalker, and I can justify cutting it to make room for a playset of Confidants. I've used Confidant in this deck before (as far back as 2007 when I originally made this thread), so I know how good he can be. Tombstalker was a big reason for not playing him, but without Tombstalker, I think he's worth fitting back in.

I'm not sure how well 3 Terravore is going to work without Sinkhole, but I see no reason why he wouldn't be large enough by the time he comes down, without them. A couple of fetches in both yards, and a single Wasteland makes him a 6/6 Trample (bigger than Tombstalker, still has evasion), so we'll see.

With Confidant, I'm not sure whether the deck actually needs another land now. I'll toss the extra land in anyway, but this could also become the 4th Abrupt Decay, a single Umezawa's Jitte, a single Sylvan Library, etc.

Here's my updated list:

B/G/w Deadguy Rock

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creaturues (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

Spells (22)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Vindicate

I could also do 4 Decay 3 Vindicate instead, but I'm going to stick to Vindicate for now for its ability to deal with stuff larger than 3cc, and its ability to hit lands. This may change after more playtesting.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'd like to update the OP and add a Primer, when I get the time to.

EDIT 2: Things I am going to consider while testing:

Is the 23rd land necessary, or can I cut back down to 22? If I can cut back down to 22, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

Would I rather have the 4th Decay instead of the 4th Vindicate?

Do I need 3 Terravore, or is 3 too many? If 3 is too many and I cut one, I'd fit in the 4th Decay.

So you cut sinkhole from the list? With sinkhole main I think vindicate is easily justified however without it, I would consider maelstrom pulse superior to vindicate.

[Hanni]

There will be situations where Maelstrom is better, and it is easier on the manabase. On the other hand, 4 Wasteland and 4 Hymn still provide enough potential manabase disruption to justify Vindicate in my disruption package. Knight being able to tutor up Wastelands can further add to this, in situations where that is warranted.

If others wish to use Pulse instead, that's fine. There are advantages to both. I will be sticking to Vindicates though.

EDIT: Typed this response up on my phone at work. Stupid typos, making me look foreign (no offense) or illiterate. Fixed.

[Vandalize]

I've been testing this deck, and it's pretty fun to play. I took Hanni's list and made some small modifications.

Lands [23]
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

Creatures [15]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Terravore

Spells [22]
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Krosan Grip
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Seedtime

Jesus, Seedtime is a card I've been wanting to play forever, and this deck uses it nice against blue matchups. Responding to a Brainstorm/Permission with it, if you have an early Goyf or Confidant is pure tempo advantage, and it's awesome.

I put 8 Leylines on the side, because they're pretty efficient in what they do, and this deck wants to tap out in the early 3 turns to either disrupt or play threats. Moreover, those Leylines aren't that bad of a topdeck, because they can be cast eventually.

Krosan Grip is needed in this metagame, mainly against Omniscience, because thanks to God, that's not Hive Mind and they can't hold priority to play Instants. And it's awesome against Blade.dec and Counterbalance (which shouldn't be a problem, as we have a lot on CMC3).

Thrun deals with Miracles pretty good, as they need Terminus in time, or they'll lose. The same for Stoneblade, he's just a beast.

I've been waiting for a long time to see an agressive Rock build. People are durdling with Nic Fit, and other Perinicious Deed control crap, and forget how good is to play a Tarmogoyf and beat to death. This deck is almost a Tempo Rock, lol.

[Hanni]

Not sure that I agree with the Leylines of the Void... you really want your graveyard for big Knights. No graveyards at all means 0/1 Goyfs, 0/0 Terravores, and 2/2 Knights. You turn your clock from an impressive killing machine, into the most abysmal clock I've ever seen.

Unless you have Leyline in the opener, you're never casting it before it becomes irrelevant against Dredge (and even Reanimator). This deck doesn't run Dark Ritual or mana decks to accelerate to 4 mana, and Wasteland keeps this deck from hitting 4 mana by turn 4.

1 Bojuka Bog and 3 Tormod's Crypt is the graveyard hate that I would run in the sideboard. Tormod's Crypt costs the same 0 mana, but you don't need it in your opener, and it doesn't take your big beaters to the Vet for a neuter job. Bojuka Bog gives you a something you can tutor for in the midgame if the first Crypt is not enough, via Knight. Bog can also be played from hand for minimal tempo loss, and it dodges Cabal Therapy quite nicely.

Leyline of Sanctity is fucking awesome. It is the perfect answer to Burn, Sligh, and Tendrils Storm (which just so happen to be our worst matchups). The fact that we can hardcast it is just icing on the cake.

Not sure about Krosan Grip, since Decay/Vindicate do the same thing, for the most part. Instant and Split Second is nice and all, but I'm pretty happy with where my SNT matchup is at already. If anything, I'd be running Oblivion Rings instead.

Thrun sounds like a solid option against Miracles and Stoneblade. We have Karakas (and Knight to tutor), which makes him even better.

I'm not sure if the Time Walk (Seedtime) is actually necessary for blue decks, since blue decks tend to be pretty good matchups for this deck, and there are other more versatile options like Choke. Seedtime does look extremely fun, though.

What I think this deck really needs in the sideoard, are more answers for Maverick and Goblins. Engineered Plague seems like one of the best options, since it totally destroys Goblins, and has a ton of relevant targets against Maverick.

We cannot really afford to run Perish for Maverick. Virtue's Ruin only deals with half the problem vs Maverick, while having the drawback of hitting a 3rd of our own guys. Neither of those do anything to Goblins, anyway.

The fact that Plague can hit other lesser played problem matchups like Elves and Zombardment (Sam Black style), among others... is just gravy.

EE and Pernicious Deed are some other options, but both of those are still symmetrical in those matchups (Maverick and Goblins), and both are pretty slow.

The final option would be Umezawa's Jitte, which might be even better than Plague for those matchups, but I'm not quite sure.

Long story short, some amount of Engineered Plague or Umezawa's Jitte seem like fantastic sideboard options for this deck to be running. Maybe a 2/2 split?

Anyway, thanks for the input. You know, it's actually pretty funny... I just cut the 4th Vindicate for the 4th Abrupt Decay this morning, lol. I still like the single Savannah though. I also ended up cutting 1 Terravore for the 4th Thoughtseize... I really like having the full 8 1cc discard spells to give me the least amount of variance for having a turn 1 play, and it lessens my top heavy curve of 3cc spells a bit. Turn 1 targeted discard is such a powerful opening play for this deck; at this point, I think I'd rather cut the 4th Hymn before I cut the 8th 1cc discard spell, if for some reason I felt that 12 discard spells was one too many.

[Valtrix]

tl;dr: I don't like Crypt. Sanctity is good for some matches, but not the ones you're likely to face. SFM+Equipment is a beast, I think it definitely deserves consideration. Engineered Plague is probably pretty good. I don't like Wasteland in this deck, is Mishra's Factory maybe viable? Also, I don't like this post much, but I spent more time writing it than I expected.

Not sure that I agree with the Leylines of the Void... you really want your graveyard for big Knights. No graveyards at all means 0/1 Goyfs, 0/0 Terravores, and 2/2 Knights. You turn your clock from an impressive killing machine, into the most abysmal clock I've ever seen.

Leyline of the Void affects just your opponent's graveyard. This is relevant for Tarmogoyf and Terravore, but not for Knight.

Unless you have Leyline in the opener, you're never casting it before it becomes irrelevant against Dredge (and even Reanimator). This deck doesn't run Dark Ritual or mana decks to accelerate to 4 mana, and Wasteland keeps this deck from hitting 4 mana by turn 4.

I don't agree with this. If you keep a hand without GY hate, it better be a damn good hand, otherwise you're unlikely to win against the graveyard decks. If you do have hate in your opener, you want the strongest hate, which I think Leyline is in my opinion since it can't be countered and is free for you.

[cards]1 Bojuka Bog and 3 Tormod's Crypt is the graveyard hate that I would run in the sideboard. Tormod's Crypt costs the same 0 mana, but you don't need it in your opener, and it doesn't take your big beaters to the Vet for a neuter job. Bojuka Bog gives you a something you can tutor for in the midgame if the first Crypt is not enough, via Knight. Bog can also be played from hand for minimal tempo loss, and it dodges Cabal Therapy quite nicely.

Bog is a card I can get behind. I don't like Crypt in this deck, because I crypt is suited more suited for faster decks that really care about zero cost to keep their tempo. I think you can afford to run stronger hate of Nihil Spellbomb or Grafdigger's Cage. In particular I like Spellbomb because of its use against Snapcaster Mage.

Leyline of Sanctity is fucking awesome. It is the perfect answer to Burn, Sligh, and Tendrils Storm (which just so happen to be our worst matchups). The fact that we can hardcast it is just icing on the cake.

I think Leyline of Sanctity is pretty strong for those matchups, but the more important question is how often do you expect to run into those matchups? I wager not particularly often, and Leyline is not great outside of those matches. As such, I would look towards finding cards that help matches you're more likely to run into. If you're really worried about those decks (which you shouldn't be most of the time), you can look to cards that are good against them, but also good elsewhere.

Not sure about Krosan Grip, since Decay/Vindicate do the same thing, for the most part. Instant and Split Second is nice and all, but I'm pretty happy with where my SNT matchup is at already. If anything, I'd be running Oblivion Rings instead.

Krosan Grip is no longer necessary with the printing of Abrupt Decay. About the only think Grip deals with that decay does not is Batterskull. Decay being able to hit creatures and costing one less makes it much better by a wide margin. That said, decay should be a 4-of in the main, so if you want more answers postboard to artifacts/enchantments, I agree that Oblivion Ring is next best for its ability to deal with Planeswalkers (Jace) and usefulness against the Show and Tell decks.

Thrun sounds like a solid option against Miracles and Stoneblade. We have Karakas (and Knight to tutor), which makes him even better.

Thrun is very strong. I think he probably can find a place in the 75 against Miracles and Stoneblade. Worm Harvest is also great against those decks, and might be a potential choice as well, although in in the end it's probably weaker because of the cost.

What I think this deck really needs in the sideoard, are more answers for Maverick and Goblins. Engineered Plague seems like one of the best options, since it totally destroys Goblins, and has a ton of relevant targets against Maverick.

The fact that Plague can hit other lesser played problem matchups like Elves and Zombardment (Sam Black style), among others... is just gravy.

Engineered Plague is definitely a viable SB option. If goblins is a large part of what you expect to face, then I think it's probably a good choice. Without SFM + Batterskull I don't think there's any better card you can run against them. And the utility in random other matchups are pretty strong too.

EE and Pernicious Deed are some other options, but both of those are still symmetrical in those matchups (Maverick and Goblins), and both are pretty slow.

I agree that these are too slow in an already mana-hungry deck. There are simply better mass-removal options if that's what you want.

The final option would be Umezawa's Jitte, which might be even better than Plague for those matchups, but I'm not quite sure.

Jitte is certainly powerful, although as a SB card I am a bit hesitant because I want my SB cards to impact the board state a little sooner. Remember threats are pretty costly in this deck, so Jitte isn't getting online before turn 4. It's also a pretty huge tempo sink if it or your creature gets destroyed, which can be crippling.

I mean, for 2 + 2 mana I could just be playing SFM + batterskull, which seems like a much stronger play in general (while requiring more space in your 75). It certainly is a rough combination for them to deal with. In fact, have you tried with them in the main at all? I think that SFM + Batterskull should definitely be a consideration in any deck that runs white. Consider also that with 7+ T1 discard spells your ability to play a T2 Mystic into a batterskull while preventing your opponent from answering can be crippling against many decks. Additionally, I think you could run a Jitte in the main or Side which could be fetched out.

Again, the deck is stressed for room, but I think the power of SFM is incredibly high. Batterskull is a great answer to more aggressive decks, which the deck can struggle with, as well as an pain for control decks to deal with because of recursion.

I still like the single Savannah though.

I fell that having one is correct. In three colors you almost always want the ability to search up any pair of colors, because when you draw that land it rarely hurts you and there are plenty of situations where you want to fetch for it.

I also ended up cutting 1 Terravore for the 4th Thoughtseize...

I like reducing the curve. You might also consider adding a Sensei's Divining top instead of the 8th discard spell and maybe even finding room for a second top. I think Top is very strong in a midrange deck like this, especially if you run any number of dark confidants. That said, I can't really fault you for running discard because it is very meaningful to have in a lot of bad matchups, and to protect your threats in general.

I noticed also that Volrath's Stronghold was not in the above list. I think that in black with 12+ creatures it's very strong, and with Knight of the Reliquary I see almost no reason why I wouldn't want one of them in the list.

I will preface my last statement with the notion that I always undervalue Wasteland, but in a deck like this I really am not a fan of wasteland. I feel that in general this deck is more mana-hungry than anything you're likely to play against, and as such needing to hold onto your mana sources is incredibly important. While wasteland can just get there sometimes, especially in combination with Vindicate or fetching with Knight of the Reliquary, I feel that such situations are less likely than the situations where you need to save your mana to play spells and your Vindicates to kill non-land permanents. Especially since a lot of other decks play mana-denial chances are if you and your opponent waste a land that they're in a better position than you are.

I can understand the need for utility lands though, since I think you can easily afford to run them. I haven't tested this, but I actually think Mishra's Factory could be a strong card in the deck. Having a 3/3 on defense is great against a lot of decks, and increasing the threat density in general is good and could give the deck more things to do. That said, it could end up being pretty awful, but right now I kind of like the idea of it.

[Hanni]

Leyline of the Void affects just your opponent's graveyard. This is relevant for Tarmogoyf and Terravore, but not for Knight.

Wow I feel like a retard now. It's been so long since I've actually used the card, or seen it played against me. I should know better, because I ran 4 for GP Columbus as an answer to Hulk Flash. =/

I guess with RIP being printed, and hitting both yards, I kinda just assumed it was a Leyline of the Void effect that also RFG'd the stuff that was already in the yard (minus the Leyline part).

Anyway, thanks for correcting me.

Bog is a card I can get behind. I don't like Crypt in this deck, because I crypt is suited more suited for faster decks that really care about zero cost to keep their tempo. I think you can afford to run stronger hate of Nihil Spellbomb or Grafdigger's Cage. In particular I like Spellbomb because of its use against Snapcaster Mage.

I can get behind Spellbomb instead of Crypt. It does seem like it would be much better suited for this deck. Thanks for the suggestion.

I think Leyline of Sanctity is pretty strong for those matchups, but the more important question is how often do you expect to run into those matchups? I wager not particularly often, and Leyline is not great outside of those matches. As such, I would look towards finding cards that help matches you're more likely to run into. If you're really worried about those decks (which you shouldn't be most of the time), you can look to cards that are good against them, but also good elsewhere.

Those matchups may not be popular, but they are the worst matchups for this deck, bar none. You can never know when you may face those sorts of decks for the first few rounds of a tournament (if you don't have byes), so I think the white Leylines are still worth consideration.

Jitte is certainly powerful, although as a SB card I am a bit hesitant because I want my SB cards to impact the board state a little sooner.

You're probably right on this, and I was pretty much sold on Engineered Plague already anyway.

I mean, for 2 + 2 mana I could just be playing SFM + batterskull, which seems like a much stronger play in general (while requiring more space in your 75). It certainly is a rough combination for them to deal with. In fact, have you tried with them in the main at all? I think that SFM + Batterskull should definitely be a consideration in any deck that runs white. Consider also that with 7+ T1 discard spells your ability to play a T2 Mystic into a batterskull while preventing your opponent from answering can be crippling against many decks. Additionally, I think you could run a Jitte in the main or Side which could be fetched out.

Again, the deck is stressed for room, but I think the power of SFM is incredibly high. Batterskull is a great answer to more aggressive decks, which the deck can struggle with, as well as an pain for control decks to deal with because of recursion.

This deck is only midrange in the aspect that it slows the early gamestate down with disruption, enough so to get it to the midgame, and then drop fat midrange creatures. The midrange creatures are extremely aggressive to compensate for not advancing its own gameplan in the early game. SFM is incredibly slow, not only because it delays putting out a decent clock for an additional turn after it has been cast, but it also requires a bigger mana investment (regardless if it is spread out over 2 turns). If I were to run SFM, it would be in place of Dark Confidant, as they fulfill a similar role; squishy, give the deck some additional card advantage, and can dominate the game if left unchecked. I think Dark Confidant is better suited for this deck, though.

I noticed also that Volrath's Stronghold was not in the above list. I think that in black with 12+ creatures it's very strong, and with Knight of the Reliquary I see almost no reason why I wouldn't want one of them in the list.

That's not a bad idea, but my only problem with it is that the majority of the removal spells being played in Legacy right now either A) Exile target creature, or B) Put all creatures to the bottom of its owner's library. The only effect that burn has as removal is when dealing with Dark Confidant. That leaves Abrupt Decay as the only removal spell that I can think of that will see alot of play, and make Stronghold worth it. Supreme Verdict may see some play too, but a 4cc Wrath of God with uncounterability is still a 4cc Wrath of God.

I will preface my last statement with the notion that I always undervalue Wasteland, but in a deck like this I really am not a fan of wasteland. I feel that in general this deck is more mana-hungry than anything you're likely to play against, and as such needing to hold onto your mana sources is incredibly important. While wasteland can just get there sometimes, especially in combination with Vindicate or fetching with Knight of the Reliquary, I feel that such situations are less likely than the situations where you need to save your mana to play spells and your Vindicates to kill non-land permanents. Especially since a lot of other decks play mana-denial chances are if you and your opponent waste a land that they're in a better position than you are.

I can understand the need for utility lands though, since I think you can easily afford to run them. I haven't tested this, but I actually think Mishra's Factory could be a strong card in the deck. Having a 3/3 on defense is great against a lot of decks, and increasing the threat density in general is good and could give the deck more things to do. That said, it could end up being pretty awful, but right now I kind of like the idea of it.

On this particular issue, I have to disagree. Wasteland is absolutely brutal in here, and I have won countless games because of the card, and very few times where I have been disappointed to see it. I have a ton of colorless costs that it can tap for, I do not have the cantrips to shuffle away excess lands, and it's another element of disruption that happens to compliment the resource denial strategy perfectly. This deck may run some expensive spells, but it lacks the cantrips, and mana sinks like Top, to keep it casting multiple high cc spells (to warrant not sacrificing my own lands). I have no 4cc spells maindeck, and I tend to run low on spells and go into topdeck mode by midgame. At the point where I have a couple of permanent removal spells in hand that I am waiting for something to resolve to use, and I'm waiting to topdeck a creature, I have no use for the excess lands I will draw.

Factory is mana hungry as a beater, and this deck has plenty of discard and removal to not need it on defense against the vast majority of decks. For the few decks that spam out creatures rediculously fast and overwhelm my discard/removal... Factory is probably too slow anyway. Besides, most of those decks (like Goblins) run their own Wastelands anyway. As additional threats against control decks, it's solid, but so is Wasteland. I'd much rather have Wasteland against control matchups. Maybe I could consider a single Nantuko Monastery, fetchable via Knight, but I haven't had the desire for that line of play, yet... because I'd rather attack my [control] opponent, rather than waste the turn tapping my Knight. If I'm tapping the Knight against control, it's because I've already hurt their manabase significantly, and I'm grabbing Wastelands to lay the smackdown on them.

Just my 2 cents on the Wasteland issue, anyway. I know I won't be dropping them anytime soon, as they have been invaluable for me in this archetype. However, I won't go so far as to call them mandatory (same thing for the Pulse vs Vindicate debate), so if you'd rather run different utility lands instead (like Mishra's Factory), I won't heckle you about it.

[Valtrix]

That's not a bad idea, but my only problem with it is that the majority of the removal spells being played in Legacy right now either A) Exile target creature, or B) Put all creatures to the bottom of its owner's library.

Counterspells are also "removal," and in any given game I think it's likely that a creature will reach the Graveyard. In any case, whenever I run a deck with 12+ creatures in black (especially with Knight), I find Stronghold to just be one of those cards I always want around.

I don't agree that SFM is really slow. Sure it's a total investment of 4 mana, but it has a huge impact to the board. You have a great defender, attacker, and stabilizer. It's great in almost every matchup between gaining life against aggressive decks or being pesky to deal with for control type decks. It's also card advantage, and you have the potential to get Jitte or Batterskull, both of which are incredible. It's actually not bad against combo decks either because of the lifegain.

In the end Wasteland is still probably right to play. I just need to stop playing control and more decks with Wasteland :P

[Hanni]

Counterspells are also "removal," and in any given game I think it's likely that a creature will reach the Graveyard. In any case, whenever I run a deck with 12+ creatures in black (especially with Knight), I find Stronghold to just be one of those cards I always want around.

This may be due to the way I play the deck, but very rarely do my creatures eat countermagic. I run more than enough 1cc discard (that lets me see my opponents hand) to know when I can and can not resolve my creatures. Walking creatures into countermagic in this deck is bad play, IMO. It might happen on occasion, but it shouldn't be happening with regularity. The fact that a big chunk of the countermagic being played right now is Spell Pierce, makes playing creatures through countermagic that much easier.

In the end Wasteland is still probably right to play. I just need to stop playing control and more decks with Wasteland :P

Well, I agree with you on that point. I've been against Wasteland in control decks for years. My U/W CounterTop Superfriends thread (that got renamed to Miracle Control) has plenty of discussion about that. I've also posted those sentiments in the old Landstill thread, the earlier pages of the Stoneblade thread, so on and so forth. The only time I ever considered them was during Merfolk's heydey, where having 4 uncounterable removal spells for their most problematic (resilient) threats was worth it; Mutavault, in this case.

---

I also want to touch on two more things before I go to bed.

I like reducing the curve. You might also consider adding a Sensei's Divining top instead of the 8th discard spell and maybe even finding room for a second top. I think Top is very strong in a midrange deck like this, especially if you run any number of dark confidants. That said, I can't really fault you for running discard because it is very meaningful to have in a lot of bad matchups, and to protect your threats in general.

While this deck does eventually get into topdeck mode by the midgame, I still don't feel that Top is right for this deck. The only matchups that really go deep into the midgame to make Top worth it, would be against Control decks, where I agree that having Top's there would be great.

In any normal situation, this deck cannot afford to cast and spin Top until at least turn 4. This deck is mana hungry during the early game, and Top is a mana hungry card quality engine. Against non-Control decks, I don't need to continuously keep digging for threats to slowly chip away at them through a sea of removal spells. Once I hit the midgame and my opponent has few to no cards left in hand, few to no permanents in play, and a disrupted manabase, a single fatty will close out the game. Finding a second fatty if the first one gets dealt with is fairly easy.

The other issue with Top is Wasteland. Those two spells do not have the greatest synergy together. In order to cast my 3cc bombs in the midgame while I'm spinning Top, I need 4 mana. 3 mana is relatively easy to get to in this deck, but 4 mana is alot harder when I want to be aggressive with Wasteland. Wasteland is just too good to justify cutting for Top, IMO.

If I were to run some card quality, it would be Sylvan Library. Library only costs 2 mana initial investment, and can allow me to draw extra cards in the matchups where my life total doesn't matter (especialy against decks using Swords to Plowshares on my fatties). However, I am currently satisfied with Dark Confidant for the role of a 2cc do-nothing-until-next-turn, because the constant card advantage is more valuable, and he can also apply pressure in the red zone. Those two last points are very important, IMO.

---

The other issue I wanted to bring up, is that I have been diligently writing an article about resource denial. I'm up to 10 pages in Microsoft Word right now, but the actual content of the article is nearly finished (but it's always the edits, restructuring of sentences, and formatting that takes the longest). It should address alot of things regarding this deck. The article is somewhat of a continuation to my failed thread in the Format and Article Discussion Forum (The Current Metagame: Junk vs Canadian Threshold), but I'm hoping that this one is a little less controversial. I tend to lose interest in discussing things when people start flaming and make personal attacks against me... I just ignore it, instead of feeding the trolls.

At any rate, I'll continue to chip away at the article, and hopefully I can have it finished in a few days. I'm very excited about it, since I put alot of work into it, and I feel that it is very informative. I will post it in the the Format and Article Discussion Forum when it's finished, and I will definitely be linking it in the OP of this thread.

Speaking of the OP... I will get around to updating that and making a Primer for it at some point, too.

Cheers.

[Hanni]

So after much deliberation, this is the sideboard I ended up with:

Sideboard (15)
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Infest
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


The Leylines might not see much play, but I like having my ass covered against my worst matchups. The rest are used pretty frequently:

vs Goblins
-4 Dark Confidant
-2 Vindicate
+3 Infest
+2 Needle
+1 Tabernacle

vs Miracles
-1 Karakas
-4 Swords
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Choke
+2 Needle

vs Stoneblade
-1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog

vs Show and Tell
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Surgical
+1 Extirpate
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Choke

vs Maverick
-1 Windswept Heath
-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Thoughtseize
-3 Vindicate
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Pithing Needle
+3 Infest

vs RUG Tempo
-1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog

I ended up choosing Infest over Engineered Plague. Plague hitting humans vs Maverick shuts off Dark Confidant, whom I actually value in that matchup. Infest might kill him if he's already on the board, but that's alright. Infest being able to deal with Mother of Runes is the bigger issue, plus Infest can deal with Qasali Pridemages and the few other various 2/2's they might be running. Infest isn't as powerful as Plague against Goblins, but I have plenty enough of a clock to take advantage of the tempo swing that Infest can provide.

I went with Choke and Needles for Miracles instead of Thrun. Shutting down Sensei's Divining Top is just as good as bringing in some resilient threats... if they can't dig for removal or cast Terminus as effectively, my creatures will survive longer. Choke is also brutal... if I land a Choke, it's probably gg. Both are more versatile, and are useful in other matchups.

I decided to go with Surgical/Extirpate as my graveyard hate of choice, since they also have value against Show and Tell. I don't really need much for this matchup to begin with, since I already have 12 discard + a fast clock... but since I'm putting tons of a stuff in their graveyard and I have some dead spells, I might as well exile their Show and Tells. Plus, I do have some otherwise dead spells in this matchup.

Tabernacle can be absolutely brutal against various swarm aggro strategies. Goblins, Elves, Affinity, etc. Since it's pretty asymmetrical in those matchups due to my low threat density, and it's tutorable with Knight... this seems like an auto-include.

It's amazing just how good Bojuka Bog is in so many matchups. I may end up fitting one into the maindeck instead, and use the sideboard space for something else.

EDIT: I will add some more sideboarding strategies for other matchups when I get off of work.

I also forgot to address what you said about SFM. SFM is slow for what it does. At 2 mana, it is a 1/2 compared to Goyf at 4/5 or larger. At 4 mana (2+2), a 4/4 is smaller than a 7/7 Knight or 11/11 Terravore for 3 mana. I am not doubting the power of vigilance and lifelink, but SFM into Batterskull is a tempo sink. If I drop a SFM on turn 4, I won't get to swing for 4-5 damage until turn 6.

Don't get me wrong, SFM/Batterskull is a great combo. There are a ton of viable Rock variants out there that range from super fast to slow and durdly, with lots of stuff in between. Many of those variants are a perfect fit for her. For this variation of Rock specifically, I just don't think she fits well enough. What would you cut for her?

[feline]

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=65737
Didn't realize this got 17th place at Gen con back in August:
2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship August-8th-2012 Devin Turner (350 Players)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
2 Vindicate
3 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Karakas
2 Plains
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
4 Wasteland
~SB
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Extirpate
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Perish
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vindicate
2 Tidehollow Sculler

[Hanni]

@ Feline

=/

I guess in a way, I'm glad that you posted that list, because it reminded me of some information I needed to include in the article I'm writing, that I had forgotten about.

I do want to point out though, that the decklist you posted is completely different fundamentally from what this deck is trying to achieve. It's kind of like posting a Naya Zoo deck in a Blue Sligh thread. Simple mistake, and I'm in no way faulting you for it. That list belongs in the B/W Deadguy Ale thread, not this one

[feline]

What the heck? I thought this was the B/W Deadguy Ale thread, how did that get posted in here? I'm sorry about that, I could have sworn when I came in here it was titled B/W Deadguy atop, I am baffled as to how that got past me.