[Deck] B/g/w Deadguy Rock

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The difference against combo seems negligble. Nantuko Shade and Tarmogoyf can't race Belcher. If anything, Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds just gives you additional outs.

This isn't aggro-control. This is board control with anti-synergistic win conditions. In fact, brief testing indicated that it would be far easier to run the clock against this deck than Truffle Shuffle, since dealing with one kill condition leaves you fumbling for turns trying to find another, and Confidant barely counts in that regard.

[Hanni]

The difference against combo seems negligble. Nantuko Shade and Tarmogoyf can't race Belcher.

If Duress, Hymn to Tourach, Unmask, Extirpate, and even Pernicious Deed/Engineered Plague don't slow Belcher down early on, then you're probably going to lose. Slowing the opponent down by removing a win condition or two and then dropping a 4/5 Tarmogoyf gives your opponent 5 turns to reassemble a hand that can go off or they lose (plus this deck can play additional disruption). The clock is very relevant... even Belcher can go off again after disruption has been played.

Belcher is the furthest extreme to where you need the answers turn 1 or else you lose. What about other combo? The clock of this deck is much more relevant against those.

If anything, Glittering Wish for Dueling Grounds just gives you additional outs.

GW and 1GW is 5 mana. Last time I checked, you don't have time to pay 5 mana to stop EtW. I realize you can pay 2 on turn 2 turn and 3 on turn 3, but still. Why would I want to do that when I have 4 Plague and 3-4 Deed already? Seems pointless, especially when Deed has the benefit of wiping away any left over LED's and such, while Plague keeps the table clear. Not only that, but Dueling Grounds keeps them chump blocking your attacker into oblivion. Maybe I'm missing something.

This isn't aggro-control.

Sure it is. It's Deadguy. I'm running 11 creatures. Did you see my list?

This is board control with anti-synergistic win conditions.

I don't get why people keep thinking this. The deck runs 3 Deed MD 1 Deed SB. This is the only spell in the deck that removes my own guys. Think of it as a better Smallpox if you really think this makes the deck anti synergistic. You don't commit guys until you are done unloading your hand with control... you don't play guys if you plan to Deed first. If you do overcommit a few threats, Deed is generally dead (except it can popped at 1), but if you are overcommitting with this deck, you're probably winning anyway and aren't worried about Deed being dead in hand. If you drop only 1 threat, Deeding said threat away to clear the table and drop another threat is also a strong play. The whole point here is that this deck utilizes 7 fatties. This deck easily recovers from its own Deed. Wiping the board and then dropping a fatty seems like an extremely strong plan to me. The reason why Deed works here is because this deck only needs 1 threat in play at any given time to win the game... beyond that, it commits no other permanents to the board.

The deck doesn't need recurrable, slow beats. The whole plan, as the plan for Deadguy has always been (and yes, Deadguy is aggro/control) is to offset the opponent and then take advantage of them being off balance by beating them in the face with aggro. Cards like Sinkhole buy time (otherwise referred to as Tempo), and the deck utilizes those elements. This deck isn't really much different from B/w Deadguy... my B/w Deadguy list drops Tarmo for Grunt and Deed for Smallpox (and 1 StP for another land).

Again, I must question how much you've playtested with this deck if the 3 Deed MD are really that anti synergistic and awful.

since dealing with one kill condition leaves you fumbling for turns trying to find another

That's why you don't blindly drop guys. You hit with Hymn, you hit with Sinkhole, etc etc. You don't just drop a guy and hope it sticks. Another thing too is that Confidant tends to bait out removal spells himself, so in that regard, I would count it. If it doesn't bait out removal, the card advantage gained puts this deck over the top. The deck has 7 big beaters. 7. How is this any worse than traditional B/w Deadguy, which runs 3 Shade and 3 Grunt? I've yet to have problems with opposing StP's in my testing so far, and I have had games where 2-3 of my fatties get removaled. Another great thing is how little of an effect burn has at removing my guys (aside from Confidant).

---

Maybe you tested the deck and didn't get good results, IBA. I don't know. Whatever the case is, my testing results with this deck continue to be phenomenal. Maybe you were playing the deck wrong? I don't see how that would be the case though, since the deck isn't really that hard to pilot. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

The idea for aggro/board control is just genius IMO. It improves Deadguys bad aggro matchups while retaining it's strong matchups everywhere else. I don't see how playing 11 aggro beats (7 of them being able to win the game on their lonesome) with 3 Deed is anything less than spectacular when you play the deck right. Maybe I'm a bad deck builder. =/

[Finn]

Deed is only un-synergistic with creature offense if the creatures you have are not dominating the creatures the opponent has. That is, who is deed hurting more?

The trick is to assure that your creatures either
a) have a higher cmc or
b) are superior to your opponent's and will win the attrition war, thus saving the deed as a backup

I do not think that either is true often enough of the creatures in this deck. It isn't a terrible circumstance (like Standstill can be at times), but you could easily switch to Mutilate as I have done, and not worry about it.

[Maveric78f]

I don't like the land destruction part of this deck. I think that the game shold remain : heavy discard + board sweeping. And then put down big threats such as tarmogoyf and grunt.

[dre4m]

I don't like the land destruction part of this deck. I think that the game shold remain : heavy discard + board sweeping. And then put down big threats such as tarmogoyf and grunt.

By the time you're done discarding and board sweeping, assuming that you survive, you can probably produce much better threats than Grunt and Tarmogoyf. Those creatures are good because their aggressive costs make them high-pressure threats early in the game, not because of how well they follow up a board control plan. LD certainly synergises better with those creature than board control.

[Maveric78f]

produce much better threats than Grunt and Tarmogoyf

Like ?

[gmorakis]

Hanni, I really love this deck and wanted to know your opinion on a few minor changes I have made to the manabase and maindeck.

Here's how my manabase looks:
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland

I think 8 saclands is a bit too much pain in combination with the Confidants, so I cut 1 along with a Swamp and added 1 of each of the duals. I think the right number is probably 6-7 saclands, but I realize the importance of their versatility in the manabase, so I opted for 7.

The only change I made to the maindeck was to add the 4th Pernicious Deed. It just seems really good against everything and just amazing in this deck in general. I decided to move the 4th Duress to the sideboard, since it is a pretty crappy topdeck and not as amazing against everything as the Deed is.

[Holo_rip]

First, i'm sorry for bumping up this thread, but well, i wanted to share some thing with you guys.

With hypnotic specter gone, why should we stick to have dark ritual ?
At the moment, i'm running 4 unearth in my side-board, and i wonder why i wouldn't fill them in the main board, especially at the dark ritual slot !
Really, when do we need dark ritual ? To cast an early E.Plague ? Come on, E.Plague is here to answer ETW token and help our goblin matchup. And here, EE and pernicious deed just seal the deal.

About unearth, for me it is just a bomb against deck with permission. Moreover, many time we blow up our own creature with deed, and it is just 4 more goyf/shade or any creature in our deck.

Here his the version without unearth main :


3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Forest

3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
SB
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Unearth

and here is the version with unearth main :

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Scrubland
1 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Forest

3 Nantuko Shade
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Duress
4 Unearth
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
SB
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Krosan Grip

Just my two cents...
Any thoughs ?

Holo.

[Solpugid]

3 Tarmogoyf

Eeeeeewwwww.

No but seriously, tarmogoyf should not be run as a three-of when it is your primary win condition. You want to see as many as you can, as soon as you can.

Unearth seems alright here, but if you wanted to cut ritual I would think extirpate (coming MD from board) would be a better idea. That said, I've never really played with unearth in this kind of deck so I probably shouldn't be talking. Divining top would also be interesting, though.

[Maveric78f]

Mmmmh, I like what you are saying because it's going straight in the direction I've taken with my discard/board sweeping strategy.

I'm not a fan of unearth because it's not combo with the already problematic association grunt + goyf. The cycling possibility is cool though.

Here is my list, it's a quite strong 2CC curve.

// Lands
3 [4E] Swamp (1)
3 [B] Scrubland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
1 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Bayou
1 [U] Plains (2)
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [U] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [7E] Duress
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

IT's been a long time I argued that Pikula was better without dark ritual and that it was asking for an enlightened tutor. The inclusion of green is now needed in every aggro-controle for tarmogoyf. Discard+tarmogoyf is really insane, moreover I play every type in my deck, without artificially including some seal of fire or briar shield.

The game plan of the deck is control the player before playing heavy threats (4*tarmo + 3*grunt). I make my opponent discard as much as I can which urges him to play as fast as he can his hand, and then I play a deed. My early plan includes the play of dark confidant and specters.

Against combo, you have all you need to get rid of tokens :
- 5 EE (6 post board)
- 5 Deed (6 post board)
- 7 engineered plague postboard
= 7 cards MD and 13 postboard

You can also needle their belcher and make them discard if they don't combo before the turn2.

Against Threshold, you have a lot of weapons : grunt is your favorite, it owns even creature in their deck. Your discard should also give you advantage. Postboard Leyline is also very strong. Their only real threat against you is mystic enforcer, that cannot be killed by vindicate, EE and with difficulties with deed. Postboard, you will have STP to help you.

Against Gob, it's more difficult than usual deadguy ale builds because I don't play STP MD, but grunt and tarmo are good stuff to give you some tempo before deeding the board. It 's a slightly negative MU though.

[Holo_rip]

Unearth may be anything else.
It just seem to me one of the best card i could include.
Having a toolbox with enlightened tutors can be something really cool too !
All what i am saying is that i think dark ritual isn't needed anymore.
So, what should be in dark ritual's place ?
Personnally, i can see this :
-unearth,
-enlightened tutors and his toolbox (1 ghostly prison, 1 rules of law...),
-sensei's divining top,
-more discard (extirpate...),
-more LD (rain of tears...).

Anything else ?

Holo.

[n00bas4urus_r3x]

Reanimate is almost always better than unearth. You only take 2 for getting back your own guys, and you always have the possability of grabbing something huge from an opponent's yard.

[Isaac]

Thanks hanni for posting this. I was at gencon getting the rest of the cards I didn't have for this deck and ended up getting them all. Sadly I was sick during most of gencon and didn't end up playing in the champs. I did do some play testing twords the end of day 2 though with cret and landstill. I added grunt to my build and he add's to the deck alot. I don't think he takes away from tarm at all and add's another fat creature to your list.

[thefreakaccident]

// Lands
3 [4E] Swamp (1)
3 [b] Scrubland
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MR] Vault of Whispers
1 [R] Savannah
3 [R] Bayou
1 [u] Plains (2)
1 [IA] Forest (2)

// Creatures
3 [u] Hypnotic Specter
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [7E] Duress
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

It's funny, I made a list only 6-7 cards off from yours... it did very well, but my teammate uses both the team's bayous and black fetches and heaths in his deck... the deck is dismantled, but it was pretty strong.

I scrapped it a while back for lack of goblin MU (I even ran swords).

you might consider dropping hyppie, he's good but not thaaat good if you know what I mean... I ran shade (pop the board with deed drop shade game over) in that slot.

good luck with the deck you guys!

[jebus]

Niiiiiice deck. I haven't been around for a while, but I've always wanted to add Deed to Deadguy Ale, but the green splash has never been worth it. Then they printed Tarmogoyf. Wow.

Anyway, my one issue with the deck is Dark Ritual. Is it really needed, especially without Hyppie or Negator to power out on turn one? The deck may be better off with no accel, adding either the E.Tutor package mentioned above (although I don't like toolbox plans in a format as wide open as Legacy) or perhaps just upping to 23-24 lands and adding more threats, which may be the only thing this deck doesn't have in abundance. Perhaps Spectral Lynx?

But if accel is really needed, the legal alternatives are Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Mox Diamond. I never liked Chrome Mox, and I don't trust Mox Diamond without Crucibles/Lftl's. But Petal is an interesting option.

The case for Petal (at least, on paper - I haven't had the time to really test this) is that while it nets one mana less than Ritual, it can provide G or W in a pinch and also gives Tarmogoyf artifacts to munch on. Also, with most of the spells in the deck at two mana (and the spells that are 3cc are gold and can't be ritualed out anyway), it provides acceleration that is smoother and makes more sense. I think the only situations that Ritual would be strictly better would be in a Swamp+Ritual+Duress+Hymn/Sink/Shade/Bob opening, or in pumping Shade and Deed - situations where Ritual simply abuses its raw power. Otherwise, Petal seems a better option... on paper. But time (and testing) will tell.

[Isaac]

Anyway, my one issue with the deck is Dark Ritual. Is it really needed, especially without Hyppie or Negator to power out on turn one?

Insted of dark rit I put in grunts and some top's. Yes it's handy to have dark rit duress and hymm in opening hand but it's also useless in late game were as a top or a grunt might win you it. Here's my curent build.

Lands
3 Swamp
3 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
4 wasteland

Creatures
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade

Spells
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to plowshares
4 sinkhole

Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
3 extirpate
3 unmask
4 engineered plague

I'm not sure about the 4 sb slots. Dys really dousnt work with grunt or tarm and you have deed in place for a grip.

[Othersider]

I'm currently trying this out. I'm not playing Grunts for the time being, since (as Hanni mentioned) they can be counter-productive for Tarmogoyf.


Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou

Creatures
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
2 Nether Void
4 Duress
2 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Sinkhole
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares


I could see the Nether Void being debated for something else, but it feels right in a lot of games. First of all, it survives a Deed for 3 (which kills practically the entire board in the majority of games), and a well-timed one can seal the deal against most comebacks.

I haven't settled on a board yet, but I really want Unearth in there somewhere. I'm still trying to find a spot for it in the main deck. I'm open to suggestions.

[jebus]

It seems more and more people are cutting acceleration altogether, and my testing of both Ritual and Petal, and I'm leaning towards the same conclusion. Ritual is clunky and cumbersome, while Petal, though it admittedly is good at what it is supposed to do, suffers precisely because what it is supposed to do doesn't really make a huge impact on the game. I'm still considering it, though, as the deck does play out smoothly with it.

What I'm currently testing is basically a black-heavy Funkbrew, with Sinkholes and Shades instead of Boas and Lynxes, and as of now I'm not sure if I should just go with Funkbrew altogether. One thing intriguing with that deck is having a Glittering Wish-board, allowing access to stuff like the 4th Deed, Crime/Punishment, Mystic Enforcer, Loxodon Hierarch, Castigate, Death Grasp, and so on - all without diluting the main deck as much as the E.Tutor build above does. Granted, this deck's sideboard is already pretty tight, but it still remains pretty tempting.

[Zilla]

Reanimate is almost always better than unearth. You only take 2 for getting back your own guys, and you always have the possability of grabbing something huge from an opponent's yard.

Reanimate deals you damage, and doesn't cycle when it's a dead card. It's not almost always better. It's only better when your opponent has a creature in their yard that's better than what you have in your own, which, given the nature of the format, probably isn't going to happen all that often.

[Isaac]

I'm currently trying this out. I'm not playing Grunts for the time being, since (as Hanni mentioned) they can be counter-productive for Tarmogoyf.

Even though they can be counter productive from the results I've been getting they work out well.