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Thread: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

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    [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Legacy's past
    Back in the summer of 2004, September 1st to be exact, the lists for "1.5" and "Type 1" were split. Before this "1.5" was thought to be the bastard child of "Extended or 1.x" and "Type 1", when the lists split and the dust was cleared there was a new format, Legacy. When the lists were split many people were angry and outraged at what Wizards did to "Their format". While people couldn't all agree on if the change was for the better or worse they all knew Legacy was here for good and it wasn't leaving.
    September 20th, 2004 the changes were now active to the format and people were now terrified of combo decks. Many terrified people grabbed all the Null Rods and other artifact hate cards that they could find and held them as guns. While people stalked their local metagame with these cards in their maindecks and sideboards they never ran into these ghost combo decks but a sudden surge in control such as Blue Bull Shit and Landstill sporting their favorite new toy Fact or Fiction. People feared a dreaded "Combo Winter of 2004" with all the new broken cards such as Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petals and Moxen, but it was a warm winter and the combo was no where to be found.
    As the year went on people were coming to realize that Landstill, ATS and the combo deck of the format Solidarity (Which didn't abuse any of these new profound unbanned cards) were powerhouses in the new metagame. "Gaea's Blessing all round" people would say as they shoved them in their sideboards for David Gearhart lookalikes and "Tormod's Crypt for all" for the disgusting card advantage that ATS was creating. Landstill was slowly being pushed out of the upper tier from not being able to deal with the combo deck and only having a decent match-up versus ATS.
    Soon little green men swarmed over the format from its cousin Extended, these men were swarming metagames everywhere and weren't planning on leaving. These little green men and their Wastelands, Rishadan Ports, Lackeys and Aether Vials were the final straw for the decline of Landstill in the metagame. The crowds screamed "Ban the Lackey, No! Ban the ringleader" but Wizards heard no screams. Goblins was crushing the format and forced people to play removal on turn one in the forms of Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt. During this period of time, both Solidarity and ATS were slipping on the radar but ATS was free falling without a parachute.
    A few members of The Source, were brainstorming what it took to stop the hordes of little green men from overwhelming the format, it took cheap large creatures, multiple answers for a turn one Goblin Lackey and free countermagic. When people got their innovation and homework done there was Threshold/Gro/and NQG.
    Big Arse 2 happened in Syracuse, NY in 2005, people played all day and when it came down to it there wasn't a Goblin player in the top 2!? There was a Gro player without the "Gro" in his deck but instead Meddling Mages. After big Arse 2 there was a solid three decks that formed a triangle that finally seemed like it was never going to go away. Threshold, Vial Goblins, and Solidarity were all claiming tickets for Christmas Town and they were not giving them away.
    A year pasted and this triangle remained unbroken, Vial Goblins still the best deck in the format and Threshold still close on its tail. With newer sets coming out and newer cards such as Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Jotun grunt, Counterbalance and many others Solidarity found its self the slowest and weakest of the Brady bunch and slowly drifted back to tier 1.5. Soon predictions of a "Combo Summer" would appear.

    Present Legacy
    Currently combo is thriving in the new metagame, pushing Goblins on its butt and is slowly starting to send those little green men back to the hills. Although, with Threshold's newest toy Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance/Top it's trying to hold the combo down keeping the little green men in the bay's of Legacy. With combo's newest toy Empty the Warrens being everywhere many decks are currently packing cards such as Engineered Explosives and maindeck Pyroclasm. As effective answers for Combo, Threshold AND Goblins many cards such as stifle are now being used because it counterspells Goblin Ringleader as well as Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens. Decks like Faerie Stompy and Red Death are thriving being able to deal with the upper tier with positive match-ups.

    Legacy's Future
    With more and more combo coming into the format there will be a surge of control decks making those Goblins in the bay come back for seconds, and maybe thirds. Combo will continue to become stronger and stronger with newer sets, because what's fun and cool in standard is broken and obscene in Legacy. Threshold will continue to do well, but slowly have less and less numbers. There will be a new competitor that creeps up from behind in the form of Ichorid decks. I believe the format will become faster and faster and eventually resemble the former Vintage before Flash and the banning of Gifts Ungiven.

    What do you believe the future of Legacy is?

    ***Flash never happened(Wink, Wink) so it wasn't included.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    There was no Goblins in the top 2 of BA2 because it wasn't considered a top deck yet. The top decks at the time were Landstill, some Survival variant, and possibly Goblin sligh. It'd be another couple months before Goblins became the new deck to beat, although it was building momentum. I don't think it had even added Ports then.

    And Threshold was not clearly part of anything until Philly. While it was pushed and developed by NoVA for a while, and saw some play, it wasn't really recognized as tier 1 until the Grand Prix and it's 3 top 8's (and look at how underdeveloped some of those lists are).

    Solidarity's been off and on popular for a while. It'll be really good for a while, then people will talk about how it sucks, it'll suck for a while, then it'll dominate some tournament... Solidarity is highly dependent upon having the right metagame to do well in, much more so than Threshold and Goblins.a

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Wasn't Threshold just a direct port of Birdshit with out the Null Rods?

    Any way, I have a really strong feeling that aggro-control-combo, aggro-prison and prison are going to have to show up at some point in the future, Goblins, Goyf, Discard, Control, Storm and Ichorid shouldn't be that difficult to shake up with something innovative.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    My hope is, as long as we all play nice and don't go crying to WotC every couple of weeks, they won't print anything too format warping. Vintage didn't get gay until Mirrodin block, after WotC got sick of hearing how they didn't care about T1 and printed a bunch of Stax cards. I don't want to see Legacy turn into T1, then I'll have to move to playing in a format where I can't use my dual lands :(
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
    You know who thinks it's sweet to play against 8 different decks in an 8 round tournament? People who don't like to win, or people that play combo. This is not EDH; Legacy is a competitive environment, and it should reward skill - more so than it does.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    I personally see Legacy choking itself out in the next five or so years. One criteria for banning older cards was their price. In five years the price of duals will sky rocket to beyond what most persons are willing to pay. Not to mention other cards like Force of Will.

    To keep Legacy strong, WotC will have to do three things...ban ban ban, watch what they print and REPRINT. Yes you heard me say it right....reprint. WotC needs to reprint some of the staple cards, the newer players need to be able to get them affordably to draw any kind of crowd to Legacy.

    Thats my two cents.

    P.S. Storm was a really bad idea on WotC's part

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    I would quibble with the part about ATS. While people believed that it was one of the decks to beat it never really put up any numbers. I only have 1 appearance of ATS in T8 with at least 50 players. Its fall I think can be attributed to the fact that it was never really as good as people thought. When really good decks like Goblins and Threshold showed up, it was nowhere to be found.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nantuko88 View Post
    I personally see Legacy choking itself out in the next five or so years. One criteria for banning older cards was their price. In five years the price of duals will sky rocket to beyond what most persons are willing to pay. Not to mention other cards like Force of Will.

    To keep Legacy strong, WotC will have to do three things...ban ban ban, watch what they print and REPRINT. Yes you heard me say it right....reprint. WotC needs to reprint some of the staple cards, the newer players need to be able to get them affordably to draw any kind of crowd to Legacy.

    Thats my two cents.

    P.S. Storm was a really bad idea on WotC's part
    dual lands are hardly unaffordable, storm was a great move on Wizards part... if they hadn't made it then combo would be nonexistant as we know it right now (belcher would stil exist, but just have belcher).

    without stom, the format would be all creature decks (aggro and midranged aggro).. control would be pushed out of the format, except for certain ones like rifter (which would then get first in ever tourney, since it rapes aggro).

    that's just how I see it.

    EDIT:

    I would quibble with the part about ATS. While people believed that it was one of the decks to beat it never really put up any numbers. I only have 1 appearance of ATS in T8 with at least 50 players. Its fall I think can be attributed to the fact that it was never really as good as people thought. When really good decks like Goblins and Threshold showed up, it was nowhere to be found.
    it was a good deck, but it needs a very good pilot to do well... unlike goblins, where anyone can pick it up (including people who have never played our format before) and do well. I don't play it anymore because there are a lot of cards tat have been printed recently that makes it impossible to play... It was good though, maybe not as good as hyped to be, but still good.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    It doesn't make sense to present Threshold as a metagame foil to Goblins, since Goblins is usually favored in that matchup. (This may no longer be true with the recent addition of Tarmogoyf, but I am speaking historically.) I'm not sure what motivated its development, though, besides its inherent synergy and power.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nydaeli View Post
    It doesn't make sense to present Threshold as a metagame foil to Goblins, since Goblins is usually favored in that matchup. (This may no longer be true with the recent addition of Tarmogoyf, but I am speaking historically.) I'm not sure what motivated its development, though, besides its inherent synergy and power.
    Back during Philly red was the most played color for Threshold and red threshold has Pyroclasm.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nantuko88 View Post
    I personally see Legacy choking itself out in the next five or so years. One criteria for banning older cards was their price. In five years the price of duals will sky rocket to beyond what most persons are willing to pay. Not to mention other cards like Force of Will.
    I recall reading a thread on MTGsalvation about Wizards printing some cards that won't be used for Standard play, but will be valuable to older players, it's doubtful that it will be duals and Force of Wills, but...one can certainly hope!

    I think that Combo decks will be running around for a while. The only decks that will be able to survive are the ones that can answer first turn 10-12 tokens and/or a possible first turn belcher activate. After this I think that the format might slow down and control decks that have good matchups against combo (landstill, gro).

    Of course, all of this could change. It really depends on what gets printed in Lorwyn...

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101 View Post
    I would quibble with the part about ATS. While people believed that it was one of the decks to beat it never really put up any numbers. I only have 1 appearance of ATS in T8 with at least 50 players. Its fall I think can be attributed to the fact that it was never really as good as people thought. When really good decks like Goblins and Threshold showed up, it was nowhere to be found.
    Quite. I think it had the strongest hype-machine in place when everything was topsy-turvy, and that was the main thing it had going for it.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    ATS beats randomness, like most survival builds, and it was the one deck from the old 1.5 that went untouched and actually got some help. It did reasonably well in the old format, and when it came through stronger, it seemed like a logical dtb. It seems pretty straight forward that it would be considered one of the best decks in the new format because it takes a while for the dust to settle. That is the same reason why landstill was still popular for a while.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    I would quibble with the part about ATS. While people believed that it was one of the decks to beat it never really put up any numbers. I only have 1 appearance of ATS in T8 with at least 50 players. Its fall I think can be attributed to the fact that it was never really as good as people thought. When really good decks like Goblins and Threshold showed up, it was nowhere to be found.
    Quite. I think it had the strongest hype-machine in place when everything was topsy-turvy, and that was the main thing it had going for it.
    I actually agree with this. To be honest, ATS was probably the most overhyped deck in the format. A lot of its hype was based on the fact that I won a majority of local tournaments (both small and large events) with it, and that somehow spread throughout the entire internet. What's worse is that the lists were very poorly refined. The difficulty of the deck was partially to blame, but the rest of the blame I put on myself for actually designing it that way. I'll admit that the decklists I used back then were rather questionable (whether they worked or not is beside the point), and it could've been easier for everyone if I designed a list that was more streamlined and not a giant mess of hard decisions. Plus, I failed to adapt correctly to cards being printed (Just a side note, but I believe ATS honestly died out because of hype through Pithing Needle and Supression Field. Ironic, no?).

    However another problem that the deck faced was the Solidarity syndrome. It just never really had the support other decks did, and thus wasn't able to put up results. It had far fewer people playing it than Solidarity did, which could partially explain why it lacked results.

    There, just wanted to clear that up. I don't want to derail the thread or anything.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    I think Landstill could be playable again in Legacy's future if Mana Drain were to be unbanned...back in T1.5 I can remember those great turn four free Disk, one mana FoF, and abusively big Decrees. But alas, I don't see this happening.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nantuko88 View Post
    I think Landstill could be playable again in Legacy's future if Mana Drain were to be unbanned...back in T1.5 I can remember those great turn four free Disk, one mana FoF, and abusively big Decrees. But alas, I don't see this happening.
    With mana drain unbanned we could probably get a working Gifts deck in Legacy.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by emidln View Post
    With mana drain unbanned we could probably get a working Gifts deck in Legacy.
    Or Slaver. Either way, we could come up with something better than Landstill to do with all that mana.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pale Moon FTW View Post
    Underground Sea is already at $45
    http://search-completed.ebay.com/und...d1QQsofocusZbs
    eBay says you're a liar. You can get revised Seas anywhere from 28-35 each, which is completely reasonable. They're actually cheaper to buy in sets. I refuse to believe that anyone could not possibly put some of their junk up on eBay to help facilitate the cost, and have their duals a few weeks later. We all have a ton of crappy type-2 rares. They add up to duals.

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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    http://search-completed.ebay.com/und...d1QQsofocusZbs
    eBay says you're a liar. You can get revised Seas anywhere from 28-35 each, which is completely reasonable. They're actually cheaper to buy in sets. I refuse to believe that anyone could not possibly put some of their junk up on eBay to help facilitate the cost, and have their duals a few weeks later. We all have a ton of crappy type-2 rares. They add up to duals.
    QFT. Also, add in the fact that they just reprinted the entire set of duals. Granted they aren't like using the earlier duals, but functionally, they work almost the same. If that's not good enough for you, cash in those crappy duals on ebay for real ones. Or cash in anything really, I do it all the time. I go around my area to the local shops, pick up all their high dollar T2 crap (For next to nothing) and then sell it on ebay and make cash, which I put towards Legacy/Vintage things I want. I finally bought my set of Seas for 26 apiece, so anyone who tells you they're 45 is talking out their ass.

    The only time I hear that Legacy is too expensive is from people who don't want to even try to get into the format. No matter what format you play, sooner or later, you're gonna have to make an investement in cards. It's the same for T2 (And you're paying outrageous prices for bad cards) and it's the same for Legacy...And Vintage, and Extended. That's just something people will have to face.
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    Re: [Discussion] Legacy: Past, Present and Future.

    Originally Posted by Nightmare
    eBay says you're a liar. You can get revised Seas anywhere from 28-35 each, which is completely reasonable. They're actually cheaper to buy in sets. I refuse to believe that anyone could not possibly put some of their junk up on eBay to help facilitate the cost, and have their duals a few weeks later. We all have a ton of crappy type-2 rares. They add up to duals.
    I wasn't talking about EBay prices I was talking about the price you'll have to pay for a Sea at your local store which is about $45. Most new players don't trade on EBay, when talking about attracting new players you have to think from their perspective instead of what "the exprienced legacy player" does.

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