[Article] Blue-Free Control in Legacy

[Aggro_zombies]

http://mtgsalvation.com/656-blue-fre...in-legacy.html

Well, I finally got off my lazy ass and got this thing finished, edited, and put up. Thanks to all of you who contributed (Machinus, IBA, Anusien, Nightmare, Finn, and the peeps at Infoninjas). I'd have put the credits in the article, but they frown on that there. =/

So, those of you who read it (aside from Eldariel, since he posted), what do you think? This is my first Legacy article and my first article in a while, so try not to flame me too hard.

Also, the bio at the bottom is waaaay out of date. My Extended stint was short-lived, and I'm now a junior at UCB.

[URABAHN]

First off, let me say that this article is primarily geared towards two audiences: first, those who may wonder what Legacy is and second, those who know what the format is but want to read up on it anyway.

The article targets a particular audience and does it very well. I wasn't crazy about the article since I don't fall into either category. Introductory articles about Legacy are very common and I prefer to read about more advance strategies.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I didn't feel that this article was quite as dragged down by introductory article syndrome (IAS) as many other such, but I'd still have preferred homing directly in on the metagame. Of course, I'm doubly over-familiar with the subject matter, since it's in the archetype I focus most on. Not quite enough Jack Elgin references for my tastes (no one ever mentions that those Rifter lists were ripped directly off of Wombat splashing Red, not based on older Rifter lists from Extended or Standard), but it was enjoyable for me to read. Yay control.

[Nightmare]

(no one ever mentions that those Rifter lists were ripped directly off of Wombat splashing Red, not based on older Rifter lists from Extended or Standard), but it was enjoyable for me to read. Yay control.

That's because they were based off the CANGD Contest 1 winner that Fakespam developed. At least, as much off that as Wombat.

[Pinder]

That's because they were based off the CANGD Contest 1 winner that Fakespam developed. At least, as much off that as Wombat.

Not to derail the thread too much, but when are we gonna have another CANGD Contest, anyway? Those are fun.

And to A_Z, a well written article. Of course, I kne wthat already .

[Machinus]

I liked this article. I didn't read the section on me since the pre-Magus decklists are obsolete : (((

Good work. I hope to see more of this on salvation.

[Phantom]

Not to derail the thread too much, but when are we gonna have another CANGD Contest, anyway? Those are fun.

I agree they are fun, especially when you have me constantly berating the judges for picking some complete piecer (I believe there were Ninjas involved) over Faerie Stompy.

Once again, just fantastic work fellas!

On topic: Haven't had a chance to read the full article, but it seems well written. I was puzzled by the picture of Standstill in an article titled "Blue-Free Control in Legacy". Keep up the good work AZ.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That's because they were based off the CANGD Contest 1 winner that Fakespam developed. At least, as much off that as Wombat.

How odd then that the lists were something like fifteen cards closer to Wombat than FakeSpam's Rifter- even including the two color mana base.

[Nightmare]

How odd then that the lists were something like fifteen cards closer to Wombat than FakeSpam's Rifter- even including the two color mana base.

Well, that's what happens when they cut all the bad cards.

[Tacosnape]

I think this article is a load of crap and I disagree with almost everything mentioned in it.

Landstill is -the- control deck to beat in Legacy right now, not to take anything away from Truffle Shuffle or Prison or Loam. Blue isn't invalidated as a control archetype just because of the existence of one deck (Goblins) and a few Xantid Swarms. Landstill STP's Xantid Swarm, Landstill STP's Lackey, Landstill Deeds or EE's Vial, and some Landstill builds even pack Humility. If you want a statistic to back that up, I'm 5-0 in my last 5 Goblin matches, 10-3 in games. Seven of those wins came without a Plague.

I think your arguments are centered too much around narrow and hypothetical problems and ignore the simple fact that Blue is good. Brainstorm is the best draw spell in Legacy, and Force is the best universal answer in Legacy. Toss in other huge draw spells (Standstill, FoF, what have you) and other counters (Stifle, Snare, Counterspell, Counterbalance) and it's a stretch to make any sort of case that blue-based control has fundamental flaws.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think this article is a load of crap and I disagree with almost everything mentioned in it.

Landstill is -the- control deck to beat in Legacy right now, not to take anything away from Truffle Shuffle or Prison or Loam. Blue isn't invalidated as a control archetype just because of the existence of one deck (Goblins) and a few Xantid Swarms. Landstill STP's Xantid Swarm, Landstill STP's Lackey, Landstill Deeds or EE's Vial, and some Landstill builds even pack Humility. If you want a statistic to back that up, I'm 5-0 in my last 5 Goblin matches, 10-3 in games. Seven of those wins came without a Plague.

I think your arguments are centered too much around narrow and hypothetical problems and ignore the simple fact that Blue is good. Brainstorm is the best draw spell in Legacy, and Force is the best universal answer in Legacy. Toss in other huge draw spells (Standstill, FoF, what have you) and other counters (Stifle, Snare, Counterspell, Counterbalance) and it's a stretch to make any sort of case that blue-based control has fundamental flaws.

Well, this was a jolt when I read it.

Perhaps I hadn't been originally clear enough in my intentions for the article. I simply wished to show that non-Landstill decks are viable in the format. And, as you pointed out in your post, Landstill is not mono-blue. It splashes white, green, and usually black...incidentally, the three colors I talked about most in the article. The thing is, mono-blue control strategies are fundamentally unplayable. If you tried to make a Landstill list mono-blue, I bet you $5 that you'd get assraped by any competent Goblins player. As good as blue is, it can't stand on its own in this format. That was what I was driving at with those points. My apologies if it came off otherwise.

[cheddercaveman]

Well, this was a jolt when I read it.

Perhaps I hadn't been originally clear enough in my intentions for the article. I simply wished to show that non-Landstill decks are viable in the format. And, as you pointed out in your post, Landstill is not mono-blue. It splashes white, green, and usually black...incidentally, the three colors I talked about most in the article. The thing is, mono-blue control strategies are fundamentally unplayable. If you tried to make a Landstill list mono-blue, I bet you $5 that you'd get assraped by any competent Goblins player. As good as blue is, it can't stand on its own in this format. That was what I was driving at with those points. My apologies if it came off otherwise.

Blue *CAN* stand on its own in this format, but probably not in the typical way of old-school mono-blue control. The creatures are too many and too fast for that sort of thing. However, there are at least 2 mono-blue decks that have excellent results in the format ... Faerie Stompy and Solidarity. Yea, yea, they arent played much ... mostly because Faerie Stompy requires spending $150+ on 4 cards and Solidarity is just amazingly difficult to master, but they're still awesome decks.

[Tacosnape]

Well, this was a jolt when I read it.

Perhaps I hadn't been originally clear enough in my intentions for the article. I simply wished to show that non-Landstill decks are viable in the format. And, as you pointed out in your post, Landstill is not mono-blue. It splashes white, green, and usually black...incidentally, the three colors I talked about most in the article. The thing is, mono-blue control strategies are fundamentally unplayable. If you tried to make a Landstill list mono-blue, I bet you $5 that you'd get assraped by any competent Goblins player. As good as blue is, it can't stand on its own in this format. That was what I was driving at with those points. My apologies if it came off otherwise.

And my apologies if my criticism came off harsher than I meant it. I kind of feel bad about that. I was in a grouchy mood when I wrote it. The article -is- well written and I think you did a very good job and by all means keep it up. I just disagree with it for the most part.

Mono-Blue based control can't hang in a Goblin world. No question and you're absolutely right. But blue-based control is not inherently flawed. Landstill isn't completely blue, but it's at least half blue and generally all but one or two of the color producing lands (sometimes all period) produce blue. Blue's strength, as David Gearhart showed the world, is in domination of the stack, which a largely reactive deck does well, and no color in magic has a better combination of all-purpose disruption and draw.

But you're right. White, Green, and Black all do add a large part to control and can, as Jack Elgin proved very effectively, function without blue in the picture as a whole. I just think Blue, in the right shell, is still as strong as any control color out there, if not stronger. It just needs a splash more than White, possibly more than Black, and definitely more than Green (Imagine. Mono Green Control.)

[Aggro_zombies]

Blue *CAN* stand on its own in this format, but probably not in the typical way of old-school mono-blue control. The creatures are too many and too fast for that sort of thing. However, there are at least 2 mono-blue decks that have excellent results in the format ... Faerie Stompy and Solidarity. Yea, yea, they arent played much ... mostly because Faerie Stompy requires spending $150+ on 4 cards and Solidarity is just amazingly difficult to master, but they're still awesome decks.

Neither of those are true control strategies. FS is aggro-control and Solidarity is combo (or combo-control).

[AnwarA101]

I enjoyed the article, but especially this passage -

Basically, aggro-control decks try to make up for control decks’ major weakness: slow clocks. Aggro-control decks in the Thresh mold can be broken down into four parts: the mana (duh), the guys, the draw, and the control. This last usually manifests itself in the form of counterspells of one stripe or another (Force of Will, Daze, good old Counterspell) and spot removal (Swords to Plowshares, burn, Ghastly Demise, and others). However, it is important to note here that the guys these decks field are also part of the deck’s control suite. These types of decks typically field incredibly efficient creatures, on the order of 4/4’s for two mana or 3/3’s for one. Even Goblins is hard-pressed to deal with those kinds of monstrosities, and attacking into a wall of men who are all bigger than your men could be generally described as “suicidal.” Blocking therefore becomes a form of creature control for the aggro-control player, and as an added perk, those same blockers can go on the offensive for massive damage when it is advantageous to do so. Against combo decks fielding few to no creatures, the aggro-control player’s men will simply smash face for the win in much the same way as a straight aggro deck does, but they have the added advantage of disruptive control elements to alleviate some of the need to race.

Thus, an aggro-control deck, as its name suggests, can function as either an aggro or a control deck, and usually as both, in any given matchup. This flexibility and power is unmatched by even the nastiest of control decks. So why is a purer form of control still playable in the format?

Your assessment of Threshold and aggro-control is dead on. I find the elegance of Threshold's design simply amazing. It wins because because its creatures are bigger against Goblins and then uses those same creatures to kill a combo player while still having a fist full of counterspells. It doesn't have to resort to cards that can be dead like Wrath of God or Damnation or go overboard on creature removal by running a deck full of it.

I'm only left with the same question I always am about control. If you can play a deck as amazing as Threshold why would you bother with other forms of control. You explore how control can be played in the format, but you didn't focus on why playing something like Truffle Shuffle or Stax would be better than playing something like Threshold. I know it wasn't the point of the article, but its still something I think about.

[Ewokslayer]

I thought the point of playing something like Truffle Shuffle was that it had a positive matchup against Threshold and other aggro control decks.

[emidln]

The point of playing Stax is a positive aggro-control matchup with the ability to tune for combo and aggro as necessary. Also, you might be sadistic.

[Nihil Credo]

Also, some people suck at playing countermagic.

/whistles nonchalantly

[FakeSpam]

Well, that's what happens when they cut all the bad cards.

Didn't Wombat run bandage?


Good article, btw.

[chmoddity]

I think blue control in general is a good bit underplayed. What is wrong with Shackles for defense and stuff like Serendib Efreet and Sea Drake for offense?