[Brainstorming] Lists for Testing Land Tax

[Finn]

Back off, pal.

It's easy to demand he present a list for you to beat on. He does all the work and you get to pick it apart. He breaks even at best. Everything is unsubstantiated at this point.

And there are other who think Aether Vial is broken. And I am quite certain that I am not uninformed.

[Bovinious]

I'm not asking for the list for the sole purpose of beating on it, I am genuinely curious to see a list in which Land Tax doesnt suck. If the list is bad, sure, I may criticize it, but wouldnt it be a disservice to the builder if I didnt? Thats the only way your list would get better, if people were timid and complemented every deck regardless of how good/bad it was, most deckbuilders wouldnt get anywhere. From your response I conclude you disagree with me about Land Tax, but its the darndest thing, I didnt see a list anywhere in your post either.

I'm not going to go on too much about the fact that Aether Vial is fair, but that article is clearly outdated. Goblins and Threshold dominating GP Columbus, Landstill unviable. Landstill is on the rise now and Goblins on the decline, so I really dont see how you can say Vial is pushing whole archtypes out.

[GreenOne]

I played for some time a Parfait deck in casual Legacy.
It can beat combo with chant, scepter-chant, ivory mask (if you buy time somehow) and powder keg (for ETW). However, the combo matchup is not that great.

The threshold matchup is good, as Nodes can be quite good vs them.

The Goblin matchup is fair if you have and early swords/nodes for an early lackey or a seal of cleansing / needle for vial.

Here's a decklist, lacking Land Tax

// Parfait 1.5

// Lands
11 [6E] Plains (4)

// Spells
3 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [WL] Phyrexian Furnace
1 [MM] Story Circle
1 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
3 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [VI] Tithe
1 [MM] Ivory Mask
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [LG] Moat
1 [UD] Powder Keg
1 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [MR] Sunbeam Spellbomb
SB: 4 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MM] Spiritual Focus
SB: 1 [6E] Warmth
SB: 2 [DK] Tivadar's Crusade
SB: 1 [FD] Razormane Masticore

Obviously the addition of land tax is great.
A list with land tax would be
-2 tithe -1 belcher -1 seal of cleansing +4 land tax

The deck really wants to activate land tax just once or twice in the game, this can help.

[Finn]

...but that article is clearly outdated...

Well, yeah. But the link was simpler than restating my opinion.

Anyway, fine. I will present a new attempt.

3 Scroll Rack
1 Pithing Needle
4 Orim's Chant
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Land Tax
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Lava Dart
1 Seal of Fire
2 Seismic Assault
4 Devastating Dreams
1 Regrowth
3 Life from the Loam
4 Chrome Mox
1 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Mountain
6 Plains
2 Rith's Grove

[Bovinious]

Hmm, that list doesnt look that bad, kinda is just a LFTL control deck with Land Tax added for extra gas. One problem I see is a low number of red sources, the deck obviously seems to want to cast Devasting Dream (RR) and Seismic Assault (RRR). Maybe add a few more basic mountains to fetch, or Mox Diamonds. So what's the next step in this process, testing the lists?

[Pinder]

\
They have rooms reserved at the hotel they are using that are unfilled and if a proposal were to be made by January 08, they could support a muti day event, in one of them. The con will be in April 08, but I forgot to write down the exact dates. He would be happy to host the event.

I think this is pretty cool. However, I would suggest that if this does go down in real life, that proxies for currently banned cards are allowed (hell, it's already unsanctioned). No one is going to want to shell out the cash for a card that they can't currently use.

Actually, now that I think about it, it might be a decent idea to let people use more proxies than that, maybe 13 a la Vintage or something. I mean, there are undoubtedly going to be cards people are going to want to use for these Land-Tax inspired lists that might not fit into any other decks, so they aren't likely to want to spend cash for those either, since it's all experimental.

[Finn]

Bovinus, these sorts of decks don't need a lot of red sources as long as they are actually capable of making Land Tax work. Once Land Tax is landed, you have access to any basics in the deck. RR or even RRR is rarely an issue.

The reason it looks like most LftL decks is because they have been patterned after the LandTax/Edge decks that preceded them.

I happen to think that a big weakness in the newer versions is the mana supply. You need"
1. a threshold of basics
2. sufficient white to land Land Tax ASAP
3. another color for business spells
4. moxen

Taken together that is a tight spot.

[asi]

Land Tax/Seismic Assault might be ok, but really, I don't think Land Tax would be that good in heavy-white decks. I've seen an actually played B/U/w Psychatog-deck that used Land Tax for several purposes, like pumping 'tog. Could also be nice with Wild Mongrel, together with Life from the Loam in some sort of Aggro/Control deck, maybe even eith some dredge and Confidant (plus Birds/Therapy and maybe Quirion Ranger, 'cause of the good synergie with Birds and Land Tax). Maybe I'll do a list, but don't expect much.


edit: just tried, and doesn't look like it could work.

This is what I tested (built and tested in about 5 minutes):

4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
6 Forest (2)
2 Plains (1)
4 Swamp (1)
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Land Tax
3 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

I really like the cute Ranger/Land Tax trick, and the fact that the deck doesn't need much mana, but with only the mongrel having real synergie with LftL and Land Tax, the card feels underpowered here. Maybe some Madness-variant could make good use of Land Tax because of it's good synergie with cards like Wild Mongrel, and it will occasionally make you discard because of 8 cards in hand EOT.

[FoolofaTook]

BGW Land Tax Aggro

Enablers

4x Land Tax
4x Aether Vial

Creatures

4x Rogue Elephant
3x Plant Elemental
3x Necrotic Sliver
4x Nantuko Cultivator

Anti-creature

4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Dry Spell

Disruption

4x Duress
3x Last Rites
2x Sink into Takenuma

Mana

3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Flooded Strand
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Forest
3x Plains
3x Swamp

Basic concept is to get Aether Vial into play on turn 1 or Duress, depending on the opponent and your nerves regarding combo. Rogue Elephant and Plant Elemental are early plays to enable Land Tax after your opponent has dropped a land or two. Aether Vial should enable a fast rush in many situations and that may be enough to swing things in your favor.

Swords to Plowshares and Diabolic Edict are for Tarmogoyf and Dry Spell is for Goblins and Empty the Warrens. It's quite possible that 3 Swords to Plowshares and 3 Dry Spell is more optimal. No creature removal cards are ever blanks in this deck because they just feed Last Rites if the opponent is not playing creatures.

The discard disruption is not optimized at the moment. Duress is in due to fear of combo and to grab plows, FoW and other removal out of the opponents hand pre-emptively. Last Rites will be a feature of the deck, however Sink into Takenuma may be just too costly in a mana deceleration scenario. It theoretically works with Nantuko Cultivator, which is why I included it, but it may be too clunky in the end.

Land Taxes function in the deck is to enable the card sacrifices required for Nantuko Cultivator and Last Rites and to enable the extremely cheap beaters that require a forest to be sac'd upon casting.

[Clark Kant]

It's not a joke and it's not sarcasm. One of the fundamental tenets of Magic is that card advantage is a crucial factor in who wins and loses games that are fiercely contested. Land Tax is probably the single best permanent at gaining early and consistent card advantage. The tempo loss involved in delaying a land drop or returning a land to your hand will be largely insignificant in a deck that is designed to otherwise use the cards that Land Tax provides.

The fact that Land Tax casts for just W and that Swords to Plowshares also casts for just W increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

The fact that Daze enables Land Tax on turn 1 increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

Every example deck that I have seen people use to "prove" that Land Tax is not broken has had the appearance of being designed to prove that case (i.e. built to be weak and ineffectual so that Land Tax will appear to be so.)

Cheap permanents that grant an unusual advantage are among the most dangerous things to have kicking around any meta. Unlike instants and sorceries they create an effect that bends the game turn after turn and they put the onus on the opposing player to change the status quo or lose, and they do it for little or no expense.

Goblin Lackey is not a broken card. Goblin Lackey plus Siege Gang Commander, Goblin Matron, Goblin Pile Driver and Tin Street Hooligan is broken. The fact that most decks have 8+ ways to remove a creature mitigates the brokenness of Goblin Lackey but not a lot.

Aether Vial is just a broken card in an aggro deck. It's more broken than Goblin Lackey because most decks have far fewer ways to deal with it on turn 1.

Black Vise was a broken card because it granted a permanent damage source that usually did a disproportionate amount of damage for its cost and in multiples it was very broken. It also directed the opponents play for the early game: stay at 4 cards or less or lose.

Land Tax has many potential partners in the vastly larger card set that has evolved since it was banned. It will be very broken when people figure out how to combine it with those partners to make best use of its ability to grant card advantage. It was broken when it was banned and it has become more powerful, not less, in the interim.

QFT

I think Foolatrick is spot on in saying that one of the best ways to abuse land tax will be with a U/W control shell using 4 Daz
e and 4 Chrome Mox.

But I think you guys are expecting way too much asking him to throw out a list that breaks the card. Decks, esp tempo based decks, take a ton of time, and lots of people working on them and testing them, to develop into a halfway decent list.

Think about this. The general idea behind threshold was there for many years, the deck with a near identical shell was played in Vintage under the name Bird Shit for years. And yet, it took almost an year before the deck was developed in legacy enough to even be considered viable.

Even goblins took a ton of time to develop and tweak, and the deck could have been ported almost directly from an old Extended list.

Fast storm based combo decks took many years after the storm mechanic saw print to develop to the point that they were considered viable.

Abusing Flash was a clear cut. It's a combo card unlike Land Tax a very complex tempo/card advantage card. Yet, even Flash, with hundreds of people working on it together, and with a GP pending, a much much much stronger incentive than a source tourney, took well over a month to arrive at an optimal list, and for a pluarility of people to believe that Flash is broken.

So expecting that someone will be able to develop a broken list of land tax working all by themselves in a few weeks is kind of ridiculous. And even if they do, it's hopeful that they would just post it, rather than just wail till the card gets officially unbanned so they can win early tourneys with the deck before more people copy the list, and people thus figure out how to play against it.

I think the source tourney is a fantastic idea. But I would be vary of drawing conclusions based on it. Tuning a list, esp a tempo deck like a Land Tax based one takes a lot of time. And card actually being officially legal is a far greater incentive to break it than is a card being legal in a very small venue and for one tournament.

[PunkRocker1134]

Ok This is my idea for a more Tempo based version of Tax, and yes it is very rough, but it is a starting point.

// Lands
5 [U] Plains (2)
3 [U] Tundra
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [OD] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
2 [A] Counterspell
3 [ST] Sleight of Hand
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn
4 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [LG] Land Tax

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [A] Counterspell
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 4 [JU] Solitary Confinement

It looks sorta like Gro on the surface, it runs almost the same amount of Cantrips, and the same amount of counterspells. It has a much better late game...hopefully. Tax, rack works nicely to keep fuel coming so Serra Avenger can finish the game. However I think it really lacks good game ending fat and raw power unlike the builds based around Confinement and Seismic Assault. I'm torn on running confinements maindeck or not, so it stays in the board for the moment. Im very open to suggestions.

Also Im still looking for a testing partner. PM me and Ill give you my AIM and we can work things out from there
--PunkRocker

[thefreakaccident]

honestly, I think the one deck that would benefit most with the addition of land tax would be aggro-loam.

you would probably want to use cards that benefit from discarding cards, and run loam & squee.

a list/

creatures//6
4 squee goblin naboob
2 graveshell scarab

enchantments//9
3 seismic assault
3 zombie infestation
2 land tax
1 solitary confinement

sorceries//8
4 life from the loam
4 devastating dreams

instances//6
3 firestorm
3 enlightened tutor

artifacts//4
4 mox diamond

lands//27
3 mountain
4 forest
2 plains
3 wooded foothills
3 winswept heath
3 forgotten cave
4 tranquil thicket
2 taiga
1 savannah
2 bayou

sideboard//
4 ancient grudge (pithing needle)
4 challice of the void (combo and aggro control)
3 humility (creature based decks)
4 oppression (combo and aggro control)