[Brainstorming] Lists for Testing Land Tax

[C.P.]

You know, as I was brainstorming more ideas for the deck, I wondered if I really even needed Land Tax at all,. Jotun Grunt seems like it would be hot tech, though. Maybe just go UWR, ditch the whole tarmogoyf/mongrel idea, and use Trade Routes/Grunt/Seismic Assault/Land Tax as an engine? You'd lose LftL, which would be sad, but you stand to possibly gain Countermagic and card draw, which could be nice.

Or maybe Land Tax just does suck that much, who knows?

One thing I wondered about Seismic Assault + Land Tax was the mana base. Wouldn't having RRR spell as a win condition put you on a heavy nonbasic land manabase? If so, How's Land Tax more justifiable than LftL?

[Pinder]

One thing I wondered about Seismic Assault + Land Tax was the mana base. Wouldn't having RRR spell as a win condition put you on a heavy nonbasic land manabase? If so, How's Land Tax more justifiable than LftL?

Well, theoretically, a single Land Tax trigger could net you 3 mountains, so I don't think it would be that hard to get RRR over a few turns. And the deck would most definitely be running Mox Diamonds, so there's color fixing there, as well.

Of course, there's still the question of whether or not that would be better than just having LftL.

[PunkRocker1134]

I hate to draw this discussion off but is there anyone who would like to test with me for this project?

[Ninj4]

I posted the idea somewhere in another thread about what I think would be a good tax deck. It'd prolly be something like

4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Plateau
4 Fetch
6 Mountain
6 Plains
26

4 Seismic Assault
4 Land Tax
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
2 Glowrider
17

4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abeyance
3 Devestating Dreams
17

This is just a super quick made up list but something like that could be viable, right? between Land Tax and Jotun Grunt, there wouldn't be much of a need for Loam and you can cut green making getting your colors much easier. Cutting chrome moxen for Lotus petals seem like a good idea too.

Combo would seem like a problem but since solidarity isn't played anymore, and really the only way for combo to win is either through tendrils or belcher nowadays. Post board you can run Pyroclasms which kills all sorts of goblins. For further combo protection, perhaps angel's grace?

It seems like the deck would at least be a tier 2 or 1.5 deck once its tuned enough.

[Zilla]

This may seem like an unconventional suggestion, but what do you guys think about making Land Tax (and possibly even a couple other cards on the banned list) legal in the next online Source tourney? A competitive tournament environment seems like the best way to validate deck concepts containing currently banned cards, and a Source tourney seems like an ideal place to try it.

[Lukas Preuss]

Sounds like a great idea.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Sounds like a great idea.

Definately.

[DrJones]

Now we only need people who want to bring a deck featuring Land Tax to a tournament.

[SouthAlly]

...or better yet, several people. Why not create some sort of motivation. Of course, you don't want only those decks either. Just a nice chunk of the field.

[FoolofaTook]

It's a better test if no motivation is provided other than the normal pride of place that drives most small competitions. What we really want to know is if anybody believes that a very strong deck can incorporate Land Tax, either as an engine or as a significant contributor. If you provide a significant prize then people will go with one of the existing tier 1 or with a favored non-tier 1 deck.

Flash was so clearly broken when the errata was lifted that it became an immediate target of the Legacy community to break and it took no time at all to come up with multiple decks that were broken except in the mirror.

Land Tax is a very different case. There are going to be very strong decks that incorporate it but they will be more insidious in their play options and tactics than we realize. The one good thing that would come out of a Land tax unbanning is that W/U would immediately have another very strong permanent card advantage engine at it's disposal and I suspect that W/U is where the really gross decks would be.

[Zilla]

...or better yet, several people. Why not create some sort of motivation. Of course, you don't want only those decks either. Just a nice chunk of the field.

If it has so little potential to be good that no one will play it in the only Legacy tournament on earth where it's legal, that kind of tells you something right there, no? I think people will play it because there's an inherent advatage in playing something unknown, as long as it's a solid deck too.

[TheCramp]

I like this idea, a few thoughts...

If there are multiple cards off the list, can you use all of them? Or just one of the green lighted banned cards in a given deck. Being able to use both Mind over Matter and Earth Craft might skew things, and would serve as a poor PR campaign. My thought is you may use one card off a list.

It might be wise to have a subset of people who do not use any cards off the list and see how these “unpowered” decks perform against the banned cards. Red and white thresh, Goblins, TES, CRET, some sort of loam build should all be tested unchanged against the field.

All the adepts who can, should play. Other Legacy players of note in the community who don't frequent this site should be invited to participate, including employees at WotC.

The more people who we know are capable of breaking a card that participate the better.

Results should be compiled, edited, and sent to WotC.

I think this could be very interesting.

[Zilla]

If there are multiple cards off the list, can you use all of them?

After giving the idea some more thought, I think it's best if one banned card is made legal at a time. Otherwise, the results may be indistinguishable. If, for example, some Land Tax decks do poorly, but some Hermit Druid decks dominate the thing, how can you know for sure that the reason Land Tax did poorly isn't due to the strength of Hermit Druid? I think one at a time is the better way to go.

It might be wise to have a subset of people who do not use any cards off the list and see how these “unpowered” decks perform against the banned cards.

I think this is almost certain to happen on its own. There are plenty of people who have no interest in try to innovate with banned cards and will play an established deck type instead.

All the adepts who can, should play. Other Legacy players of note in the community who don't frequent this site should be invited to participate, including employees at WotC.

This is rather ambitious, but of course anyone who wants to enter is welcome.

Results should be compiled, edited, and sent to WotC.

Agreed, although I think perhaps that more than one tournament sampling should be included if we were to do this, because results from a single tournament are almost never really conclusive.

[TheCramp]

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who manages Quarterstaff Games in Burlington VT. They are resurrecting the con they used to run Northeast Wars. I proposed to him the idea of running this kind of tournament there. This is what he said:

They have rooms reserved at the hotel they are using that are unfilled and if a proposal were to be made by January 08, they could support a muti day event, in one of them. The con will be in April 08, but I forgot to write down the exact dates. He would be happy to host the event.

He anticipates attendance of about 30 to 50 for each of the scheduled type 2 and limited events that are running.

This might not be the perfect location as far as attendance is concerned, but we would have a lot of freedom to run the event however we want thanks to the lead time.

[PunkRocker1134]

Zilla That sounds like a great idea. However who many people will play Tax and how can we be sure those lists are refined. Still great idea though. (Sorry I couldn't add more, Ill edit more on later)

[Bovinious]

Land Tax is a very different case. There are going to be very strong decks that incorporate it but they will be more insidious in their play options and tactics than we realize. The one good thing that would come out of a Land tax unbanning is that W/U would immediately have another very strong permanent card advantage engine at it's disposal and I suspect that W/U is where the really gross decks would be.

Was this post a joke or sarcasm that I missed? Even if you think the card will be playable (which is still a big stretch), "very strong", "insidious", and "gross" are still huge misrepresentations of what would actually happen if the "card advantage engine" were unbanned.

[FoolofaTook]

Was this post a joke or sarcasm that I missed? Even if you think the card will be playable (which is still a big stretch), "very strong", "insidious", and "gross" are still huge misrepresentations of what would actually happen if the "card advantage engine" were unbanned.

It's not a joke and it's not sarcasm. One of the fundamental tenets of Magic is that card advantage is a crucial factor in who wins and loses games that are fiercely contested. Land Tax is probably the single best permanent at gaining early and consistent card advantage. The tempo loss involved in delaying a land drop or returning a land to your hand will be largely insignificant in a deck that is designed to otherwise use the cards that Land Tax provides.

The fact that Land Tax casts for just W and that Swords to Plowshares also casts for just W increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

The fact that Daze enables Land Tax on turn 1 increases the odds that the card advantage will be given to a deck that is able to deal with the tempo loss.

Every example deck that I have seen people use to "prove" that Land Tax is not broken has had the appearance of being designed to prove that case (i.e. built to be weak and ineffectual so that Land Tax will appear to be so.)

Cheap permanents that grant an unusual advantage are among the most dangerous things to have kicking around any meta. Unlike instants and sorceries they create an effect that bends the game turn after turn and they put the onus on the opposing player to change the status quo or lose, and they do it for little or no expense.

Goblin Lackey is not a broken card. Goblin Lackey plus Siege Gang Commander, Goblin Matron, Goblin Pile Driver and Tin Street Hooligan is broken. The fact that most decks have 8+ ways to remove a creature mitigates the brokenness of Goblin Lackey but not a lot.

Aether Vial is just a broken card in an aggro deck. It's more broken than Goblin Lackey because most decks have far fewer ways to deal with it on turn 1.

Black Vise was a broken card because it granted a permanent damage source that usually did a disproportionate amount of damage for its cost and in multiples it was very broken. It also directed the opponents play for the early game: stay at 4 cards or less or lose.

Land Tax has many potential partners in the vastly larger card set that has evolved since it was banned. It will be very broken when people figure out how to combine it with those partners to make best use of its ability to grant card advantage. It was broken when it was banned and it has become more powerful, not less, in the interim.

[Zilla]

Leave off about the brokenness or lack thereof of Land Tax in this thread. That's not what it's about. This thread exists to explore potential options with the card. That exploration can speak for itself on the top of brokenness. Anything else is just verbal masturbation.

[ReAnimated]

Heres a list i don't have a mana base suggestions are welcome

4 Land tax
4 Scroll Rack
4 Lightning Storm
4 Mox Diamond
4 Burning Wish
3 Ivory Tower
3 Life from the Loam

And a Wish-Board somethign like...

Pyroclasm
The 4th Loam
D.Dreams
Other Goodies

[Bovinious]

@ FoolofaTook:

Could you please present a list where Land Tax is decent, that is, after all, what this thread is about, presenting lists, not making claims without backup. If you can show me a Land Tax list to the contrary I'm all ears.