[Article] - The Red Death Primer

[Machinus]

Finally!!!

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/14540.html

[MattH]

This was a good article and I liked it, so please don't take offense at the few criticisms I am about to offer.

"Order of the Ebon Hand/Knight of Stromgald/Stromgald Crusader

These creatures suffer from the same problems as all 1 toughness creatures of just dying to any and all removal. "

The whole reason to even consider playing these guys is immunity to STP.

These artifacts are either simply too costly (Chrome Mox), unworkable (Mox Diamond) or just worse than Dark Ritual (Lotus Petal).

But what about playing Petal in addition to Dark Ritual? Not as a full set, because the deck can't support that, but one or two Petals might be worth it. I mean you do have a lot of 2cc spells that would benefit from a turn's boost.

You explained the maindeck disinclusion of Wretch and Confidant well, but I also would have liked to see a discussion on their usage as sideboard cards. Also, Extirpate and Pithing Needle were noticeably absent from the discussion of possible SB cards.

Overall, this was a good rundown and summary of the deck (which is the primary purpose of a primer) but lacking much for the advanced Legacy player. For example, a discussion on what to sac to Negator (given various board positions and hands) would have been something new that isn't found elsewhere. If you do a part 2, definitely explain your thoughts on that.

[Anusien]

Out of curiosity, how did this come under the "Unlocking Legacy" moniker?

Anyway, I look forward to reading this tomorrow.

I do have to ask one question based on the way you laid things out in the article:
If you're behind against Threshold, behind to event versus combo and ahead versus Goblins, why not just play Thresh?

I would suggest talking more about how Tarmogoyf changes the Red Death matchup; you qualify that too much for me to feel certain about your response.

Did you ever consider splashing Tarmogoyfs?

[Citrus-God]

I really like this Primer. Red Death has been a very fun deck to play in my experience, and I look forward to winning a big event with it, or at least a monthly Top 4 at a Top 4 prize draft tournament.

[outsideangel]

A fine article clearly aimed at players with little to no experience with Red Death, I think you clearly and concisely explained the basics. I would love to see a Part 2 discussing the more advanced strategies behind playing the deck, too.

[Nihil Credo]

Concise and clear. Can't ask much more than that, at least nothing that can go in a family-friendly website.

On another topic, the default RD list (the one in the article) currently runs one or two suboptimal cards - the Wretched Anurid is one, and I consider the fourth Shade to be the other (personal preference, I just hate how it clogs your hand in multiples in the early game). Would you agree that this slot(s) is bad enough that the deck would improve by replacing it with a Street Wraith, especially considering that it can realistically be hardcast?

I've put 2 in when FS came out and haven't looked back, but at the time there was more important stuff to deal with in Legacy than discussing a minor tweak so I'd like to start talking about it now.

Edit: Although you didn't put it in the default list, I think there is currently no reason to even consider Tormod's Crypt when you can play Extirpate. Thanks to 'Goyf, Crypt is now almost useless against Threshold, Extirpate is just a lot better against all form of recursion decks (mainly LftL, but also Crucible "locks" with manlands) and Ichorid is more than prepared to face Crypt (Needle, Chalice).

[nitewolf9]

I do have to ask one question based on the way you laid things out in the article:
If you're behind against Threshold, behind to event versus combo and ahead versus Goblins, why not just play Thresh?

I would suggest talking more about how Tarmogoyf changes the Red Death matchup; you qualify that too much for me to feel certain about your response.

Did you ever consider splashing Tarmogoyfs?

While Threshold is definitely the better anti-combo deck, and can most certainly be a very rough matchup for red death, a myriad of board control decks seem to be popping up, such as landstill for instance, to answer the current best deck in the format (threshold) while having a good combo matchup as well. Red death generally has a good control matchup and has the tools to fight combo as well, along with having a good goblins matchup. I think it can be very good in the right metagame. Dystopia is also completely nuts against threshold.

Splashing for goyf could also easily be done.

[AnwarA101]

The whole reason to even consider playing these guys is immunity to STP.

You are right I did leave out their immunity to STP. It was an oversight and my statement does seem a bit broad in the context of STP. Though I still find the creatures unacceptable especially in comparison with Shade as well as their inability to pump their toughness.

But what about playing Petal in addition to Dark Ritual? Not as a full set, because the deck can't support that, but one or two Petals might be worth it. I mean you do have a lot of 2cc spells that would benefit from a turn's boost.

While you would benefit from the temporary boost of Lotus Petal it would not be worth the cost. Lotus Petal is one more card that creates card disadvantage in addition to Dark Ritual without the same devastating impact that Dark Ritual has. Red Death burns through its card in hand pretty quickly and increasing this pace is worse at the cost of slight boost that a petal or two would give you. Its not that Red Death is overly concerned with card disadvantage, but you have to have enough spells that have an effect on the game as opposed to just acceleration. Lotus Petal would also be worse against control decks as that would leave you with one less spell that you can attack them with. It would make you more suspectible to removal (Swamp, Lotus Petal, Giant followed by STP or Bolt makes for very bad times). Finally Lotus Petal would have to be cut for either a Land or business spell which means either you lower your land count or your spell count both of which are dangerous as the deck is playing close to the minimum lands it can afford and it still needs virtually every spell it has. What would you cut for Lotus Petal?

You explained the maindeck disinclusion of Wretch and Confidant well, but I also would have liked to see a discussion on their usage as sideboard cards. Also, Extirpate and Pithing Needle were noticeably absent from the discussion of possible SB cards.

Overall, this was a good rundown and summary of the deck (which is the primary purpose of a primer) but lacking much for the advanced Legacy player. For example, a discussion on what to sac to Negator (given various board positions and hands) would have been something new that isn't found elsewhere. If you do a part 2, definitely explain your thoughts on that.

Wretch and Confidant have been considered sideboard cards briefly, but all the sideboard cards I mentioned have always been better at dealing with specific strategies than those cards. I've never really wanted to board either one.

I do have to ask one question based on the way you laid things out in the article:
If you're behind against Threshold, behind to event versus combo and ahead versus Goblins, why not just play Thresh?

I have to agree with everything nitewolf9 said. The deck is better against Control decks in my opinion, but I think you are mistaken about the deck's combo matchup.

In general Red Death is very good against combo and I state that as one of the main reasons for playing the deck. Belcher represents an interesting case of combo where the combo is built around turn 1 (Belcher or ETW) and that makes it tough on the draw when you aren't playing Force of Will. Provided you get a turn you will have a good opportunity to disrupt them. Most combo decks are behind against Red Death and even more so post-board.

Threshold is an amazing deck. I can never recommend not playing. There are a couple of differences. First the control matchup seems to be better for Red Death. The other major thing is that since Threshold is widely played people have specific sideboard cards for it such as Chalice of the Void and Tormod's Crypt which do much less against Red Death. Avoiding hate while still playing a somewhat similar strategy can have benefits. I've actually had people board in Tormod's Crypt and I've won through Chalice of the Void as well. I'm not sure I would have won those games while playing Threshold.

I would suggest talking more about how Tarmogoyf changes the Red Death matchup; you qualify that too much for me to feel certain about your response.

Did you ever consider splashing Tarmogoyfs?

Tarmogoyf makes Threshold a much tougher matchup. I stated that in article as well. It also reduces the usefulness of cards like Tormod's Crypt. As for splashing green for Tarmogoyf, its something that I've actively worked on but I have no conclusive results or confidence in any such list.

On another topic, the default RD list (the one in the article) currently runs one or two suboptimal cards - the Wretched Anurid is one, and I consider the fourth Shade to be the other (personal preference, I just hate how it clogs your hand in multiples in the early game). Would you agree that this slot(s) is bad enough that the deck would improve by replacing it with a Street Wraith, especially considering that it can realistically be hardcast?

I disagree that Anurid and Shade are suboptimal, but less assume for the sake of the argument that they are. Street Wraith doesn't really fix this problem. Let's say that you draw a Street Wraith in your opening hand along with one other creature. You play your one creature, but now you want to add your second creature to the battlefield, but you can't because Wraith costs 3BB or you can cycle him but drawing one card doesn't seem to guarantee that you will draw into another creature with only 14 creatures left in the deck. I don't think Street Wraith will do much of anything especially since even in the mid game he will be worse than Shade and only slightly better than Anurid with almost 3 times the cost.

[Tacosnape]

On another topic, the default RD list (the one in the article) currently runs one or two suboptimal cards - the Wretched Anurid is one, and I consider the fourth Shade to be the other (personal preference, I just hate how it clogs your hand in multiples in the early game). Would you agree that this slot(s) is bad enough that the deck would improve by replacing it with a Street Wraith, especially considering that it can realistically be hardcast?

Why on earth would you cut a quality card for a card that has the intent purpose of helping you draw your quality cards?

[AnwarA101]

I just noticed the link that Machinus posted only links to the discussion about the article. The article can be found here -

The Red Death Primer

[Machinus]

Ah, my bad! I was excited and copied the wrong URL. I fixed it anyway.

[Nihil Credo]

I disagree that Anurid and Shade are suboptimal, but less assume for the sake of the argument that they are. Street Wraith doesn't really fix this problem. Let's say that you draw a Street Wraith in your opening hand along with one other creature. You play your one creature, but now you want to add your second creature to the battlefield, but you can't because Wraith costs 3BB or you can cycle him but drawing one card doesn't seem to guarantee that you will draw into another creature with only 14 creatures left in the deck. I don't think Street Wraith will do much of anything especially since even in the mid game he will be worse than Shade and only slightly better than Anurid with almost 3 times the cost.

The way you put it is a bit convoluted, but your point is essentially that 16/60 creatures is already skirting it for this deck and it would be a bad idea to go down to 15/59 or 14/58? If so, fair enough. I don't agree, but we're again going into judgment calls.

Why on earth would you cut a quality card for a card that has the intent purpose of helping you draw your quality cards?

I assume you're talking specifically of the Shade replacement. Look at it this way: I'd rather run 3 Shades in 59 cards than 4 Shades in 60 cards (disregarding the life cost, but that's not what you were objecting to).

[Silverdragon]

The way you put it is a bit convoluted, but your point is essentially that 16/60 creatures is already skirting it for this deck and it would be a bad idea to go down to 15/59 or 14/58? If so, fair enough. I don't agree, but we're again going into judgment calls.


I assume you're talking specifically of the Shade replacement. Look at it this way: I'd rather run 3 Shades in 59 cards than 4 Shades in 60 cards (disregarding the life cost, but that's not what you were objecting to).

FYI The chance of drawing a 4-of in your starting hand with 60 cards total is about 40% and the chance of drawing a 3-of with 59 cards total is about 32%.
With 16 creatures in a 60 card deck the chance of drawing one in your opening 7 is about 90%. 15/59 lowers this to 89%, 14/58 goes down to 87%.

Btw. the primer was good. Well written and informative.

[Barsoom]

If Carnophage and Sarcomancy "just don’t belong in Suicide Black" at all, and Order of the Ebon Hand & Stromgald Crusader "suffer from the same problems as all 1 toughness creatures of just dying to any and all removal" why this deck, played by bill stark, Top 4 at Gp Columbus with 4x maindeck of all 4 cards?
luck? good matchups? or a different meta full of flash decks?

[AnwarA101]

If Carnophage and Sarcomancy "just don’t belong in Suicide Black" at all, and Order of the Ebon Hand & Stromgald Crusader "suffer from the same problems as all 1 toughness creatures of just dying to any and all removal" why this deck, played by bill stark, Top 4 at Gp Columbus with 4x maindeck of all 4 cards?
luck? good matchups? or a different meta full of flash decks?

That format was not Legacy it was Flash. That deck had a good game against Fish decks while trying to have a decent game against Flash. I can't say much about the format Flash. It only existed for 6 weeks and has almost no relationship to modern Legacy.

[ForceofWill]

The deck is terrible it only did good because of the flash metagame. When people try playing that deck now they get absolutely destroyed.

[MattH]

What would you cut for Lotus Petal?

Probably the Wretched Anurid.

I disagree that Anurid and Shade are suboptimal, but less assume for the sake of the argument that they are. Street Wraith doesn't really fix this problem.

I agree that SW isn't the answer. Personally I would try Confidant as a 1- or 2-of.

[Joon]

Personally I would try Confidant as a 1- or 2-of.

Nice idea. I were often in situations, in that a topdecked Confidant would have at least saved my beaters from removal because the opponent don't want you to draw much faster than normal more critter or burn. What would you guys cut? Anurid and...?

[Citrus-God]

Wait... this deck has so much disruption, it shouldnt matter. Usually you tend to use Rotting Giants and such as bait, then you throw out the more efficient threats, like Negator or Shade when the opponent used up his Removal card against your Giants/Specters. Besides, this isnt the deck to wait, it wants to win now, or never. Why do you think TES cut Confidant from it's Sideboard? It is because it wants to win now, not later.

[Hummingbird TG]

But Dark Confidant takes up a creature slot, where it helps you to draw more burn in situations where your opponent has stabilized at low life...