[Article] - The Red Death Primer

[TheCramp]

Goyf seems strictly better than Rotting Giant, and I like the idea of trying to fit it in. BUT beyond just messing up a perfectly good land base, you also can't dark ritual it out. Turn one- Sac Land, Dark Ritual, Duress, Giant is a huge play. Goyf can't play like that.

[Zilla]

Goyf seems strictly better than Rotting Giant, and I like the idea of trying to fit it in. BUT beyond just messing up a perfectly good land base, you also can't dark ritual it out. Turn one- Sac Land, Dark Ritual, Duress, Giant is a huge play. Goyf can't play like that.

You could always play Lotus Petal over Ritual. Anwar mentioned in his article that it is inferior to Dark Ritual, but that's working under the assumption that you're staying nearly mono-black. I can see trying Petal over Ritual in a 3c build.

[zulander]

If you gut dark rits for goyf and add confidant, why not just play gagomy?

[Zilla]

If you gut dark rits for goyf and add confidant, why not just play gagomy?

You would be. This was the exact line of thinking that led to Gagomy's development. The question was "what happens when I splash green in Red Death for Tarmogoyf" and Gagomy was the result. So to answer your question, there's no distinguishable difference. This is akin to asking why you would play board control when you could just play Landstill.

[zulander]

This was the exact line of thinking that led to Gagomy's development. The question was "what happens when I splash green in Red Death for Tarmogoyf" and Gagomy was the result

Not really. What led to Gagomy's development was the thinking "I want to play negator, kird ape and goyf in a deck with some bolts for burn, and of course duress.

[Zilla]

Not really. What led to Gagomy's development was the thinking "I want to play negator, kird ape and goyf in a deck with some bolts for burn, and of course duress.

I guess I don't really see the distinction. The disruption and threat bases between the two decks are so similar I sort of assumed the one was a natural evolution of the other.

[zulander]

I guess I don't really see the distinction. The disruption and threat bases between the two decks are so similar I sort of assumed the one was a natural evolution of the other.

They are really similar, coincidentally when gagomy was created there was already b/r aggro disruption in the form of Red Death.

[Zilla]

They are really similar, coincidentally when gagomy was created there was already b/r aggro disruption in the form of Red Death.

And you're friends with Anwar, so I assumed he might have had some input on the matter.

[Citrus-God]

But Dark Confidant takes up a creature slot, where it helps you to draw more burn in situations where your opponent has stabilized at low life...

Which wouldnt matter much because, because the deck thinning from the fetchlands are bound to topdeck a Burn card for you in that situation anyway.

[AnwarA101]

And you're friends with Anwar, so I assumed he might have had some input on the matter.

GAGOMY does look like Red Death with the green splash with some notable exceptions. I'm not sure exactly what caused the creation of GAGOMY other than Tarmogoyf being amazing. I've considered placing Tarmogoyf in Red Death and have done some preliminary testing, but it never quite felt right to me. Perhaps having a non-ritual creature is a bit of an issue in addition to playing a 3 color mana base with Wasteland. I'm not really sure, but perhaps it would drift into GAGOMY anyway. Its hard to say if the lists could stay indepedent of each other.

[Citrus-God]

GAGOMY does look like Red Death with the green splash with some notable exceptions. I'm not sure exactly what caused the creation of GAGOMY other than Tarmogoyf being amazing. I've considered placing Tarmogoyf in Red Death and have done some preliminary testing, but it never quite felt right to me. Perhaps having a non-ritual creature is a bit of an issue in addition to playing a 3 color mana base with Wasteland. I'm not really sure, but perhaps it would drift into GAGOMY anyway. Its hard to say if the lists could stay indepedent of each other.

You do run 8 fetchlands, I dont see it hurting much really... IMO, you could do this

-2 Swamp
-1 Fetchland

+3 Bayou

Of course, it probably makes the broken openings a bit harder to pull off which can be a problem.

[Zilla]

Like I said, you could always run Petal over Ritual. A little less powerful, but it goes a long way towards stabilizing the 3 color manabase, not to mention the fact that it has strong synergy with Tarmogoyf.

On a vaguely related note, I'm surprised that no one is running Hidden Gibbons in their sideboards these days. It's rock solid against just about every deck besides Goblins, and being an enchantment, ahs potential synergy with Tarmogoyf. Just saying.

[Citrus-God]

On a vaguely related note, I'm surprised that no one is running Hidden Gibbons in their sideboards these days. It's rock solid against just about every deck besides Goblins, and being an enchantment, ahs potential synergy with Tarmogoyf. Just saying.

I'm suprised Threshold doesnt run it....

[Zilla]

I'm suprised Threshold doesnt run it....

I've actually been really tempted to run it in my UGR Thresh sideboard primarily for the UGW mirror... but Threads of Disloyalty, Spellsnare, and even Price of Progress are also really good there, so it's a tough call.

[Nihil Credo]

On a vaguely related note, I'm surprised that no one is running Hidden Gibbons in their sideboards these days. It's rock solid against just about every deck besides Goblins, and being an enchantment, ahs potential synergy with Tarmogoyf. Just saying.

I played it in the SBs of both Feinstein RG aggro and UGW Threshold. I dropped it from the former because I had to dedicate the whole SB to fight stuff like Jitte, enchantments, or Storm. I dropped it from the latter because the opponent only needed to trigger it if I had another creature on board; this left me open to a nice 2-for-1 against control, so Hidden Gibbons ended up good only vs. aggro-control. But against a-c, Counterbalance was just better.

[Citrus-God]

I've actually been really tempted to run it in my UGR Thresh sideboard primarily for the UGW mirror... but Threads of Disloyalty, Spellsnare, and even Price of Progress are also really good there, so it's a tough call.

I guess it's just because there isnt enough space for Gibbons in the Sideboard. There's also more stuff like Control Magic and Counterbalance. I guess when the meta gears more towards Aggro-Control, it might be considered.

[Lukas Preuss]

I'm suprised Threshold doesnt run it....

People around here have been running Hidden Gibbons in Threshold sideboards for at least a year.

[Citrus-God]

People around here have been running Hidden Gibbons in Threshold sideboards for at least a year.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I guess I was so into the U.S. metagame that I forgot to look at tech in Europe. Sadly, the only time I ever research decks from Europe is when I researched T1T and TPS in Vintage.

[Zilla]

I guess it's just because there isnt enough space for Gibbons in the Sideboard. There's also more stuff like Control Magic and Counterbalance. I guess when the meta gears more towards Aggro-Control, it might be considered.

Control Magic is just worse than Threads, in my opinion, since the only things I'm really going to want to steal are Jotun Grunt or Tarmogoyf anyway.

As for Counterbalance, I personally find it to be vastly overrated, at least as an SB option for Thresh. Every time I have it brought in against me it seems like I'm either able to answer it or effectively play around it. Particularly in Thresh, where you only have about 12 slots available to counter-style disruption, I'd much rather have a guaranteed answer to the most important threats than a potential answer to all of them.

[Citrus-God]

Control Magic is just worse than Threads, in my opinion, since the only things I'm really going to want to steal are Jotun Grunt or Tarmogoyf anyway.

Not really. Most games I recall losing are against a resolved Mystic Enforcer. Control Magic makes it possible to steal Enforcer.

As for Counterbalance, I personally find it to be vastly overrated, at least as an SB option for Thresh.

It's rather hard to play around it. Now a days, most games I've won involved Counterbalance.

Every time I have it brought in against me it seems like I'm either able to answer it or effectively play around it.

You answered it. That shows the fear and power level of the card. Besides, playing around it is very hard when up against a strong player who knows the best timing to assemble it.

Particularly in Thresh, where you only have about 12 slots available to counter-style disruption, I'd much rather have a guaranteed answer to the most important threats than a potential answer to all of them.

In the Hatfield variant, there's 10 1cc cantrips, and I tend to set it up early with tons of disruption backed up. Post-board, I treat the deck as a more flexible Scepter Chant with an Aggro mode.

Personally, I find Counterbalance to be very underrated, but that could be going back towards the Portent debate. Oh well, I dont see others doing well with that card other than those in the East Coast, and a handful in the midwest and West Coast.