Anecdote from a game I played the other day: I played turn 1 Shuko, turn 2 Cephalid Illusionist, and then realized that, because I had a Narcemoeba *and* a Dread Return in my hand, I couldn't actually win. Self-milling would only turn over 2 more Narcomoebas, and I wouldn't have enough creatures to both Therapy myself and then flash back Dread Return.
That said, I still really like having the SFM plan B with fetchable combo piece, so I'm going to continue to test with Shuko. Just wanted to point out this other small downside to watch out for!
I believe people have been trying out Bridge from Below to that effect. Other than giving some kind of advantage in grindy matchups, it would have enabled a T2 kill here. That being said, I'd play a 4th Narcomoeba before Bridge from Below personally as it has even more uses than being food for Cabal Therapy and Dread Return. Things like milling for a 1/1 blocker have definitely happened on occasion, as well as Vialing-in a Recruiter to tutor for a blue card :>
One weird sideboard plan I've toyed with has been putting a single Emrakul in the board. You could board out angel, dread return, researcher, and lab man. The combo would turn into an instant-speed narcomeba generator, where as soon as one dies, you can resurrect them by milling your library. This would be quite nice vs delver and other matchups that struggle against resilient, recursive threats. If you did this during your main phase you could cast all or some of your therapies for free.
Some benefits of this would be to have a "soft" combo that works at instant speed, while having fewer dead combo cards. Vialing in an illusionist as soon as they point removal at a nomad, for instance. I imagine you would bring emrakul in along with the sfm package.
Could be a waste of a SB slot, but I've wanted to test it out.
How so? You mill through your deck once, putting the emmy trigger on the stack as soon as it hits but not letting it resolve yet, and continute to mill. You get your narcomoebas and then you're done. It doesn't require multiple mills like Horseman. And once your opponent sees what you are doing, if narcomoebas die, you can just shortcut by flipping your deck over, getting them back, and shuffling once.
I'm currently looking at a build that is more pure combo, preboard. Looking at each slot in the list critically, I think one of the cuttables is Aether Vial, just because nonblue decks are up and it doesn't actually accelerate all that much. I find that of all the dead cards in the later portions of the game, vial is dead the most often. It also gets worse without daze.
Id like to run more protection, but its really awkward that mana is so tight unless something goes wrong.
Also, I'd like your thoughts on the opposite direction, a list that tries to be more all in on plan b by cutting some cantrips for a D&T type plan, with wastes and thalias in the main and more WU taxes goodies in the sideboard.I found that we win a lot of games when they cant deploy the removal they have because their mana is tied up, and I want to accentuate that.
I think that Thalia messes with Therapy and our actual combo too much. You either would need it to die or you would need at least 1 extra mana when comboing. I think that Vial is pretty great, especially with the inclusion of recruiter of the guard. You could get me on board with Playing more recruiter targets main but I dont think that we can play things that add inconsistency to going off.
My proposed combo focused list cuts recruiter and plan b for intuition, return to the ranks, snapcaster mage, and the 4th ponder, while also going up to 19 land(from where i was at 15 in the main.) Idk about the thalia list exactly, but its pretty awkward that a lot of our wins come from forced ineffeciency of our opponents removal and yet we cannot capitalize on that all unless we have the nuts.
I've been thinking about this deck a lot lately... with shuko making it possible to remove white from the combo, do you think it would be better to stick the deck in other shells? the entire combo takes up about 15 slots, so I think it makes a very cool transformative sideboard plan if nothing else!
This is the grixis breakfast list (I put it together in like 10 minutes so any advice is welcome)
//Creatures (2)
2 Baleful Strix
//Combo (16)
4 Shuko
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
4 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
//Instant (14)
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
//Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//Sorcery (7)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
//Land (20)
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
SB: out combo (except hapless) in 15 fair grixis control cards
Any Thoughts?
It'll probably fly.
I'd be worried about abrupt decay as the combo is sorcery speed.
I've also considered going mono blue with whir of invention and Vedalken Aethermage as the combo finders.
I saw the new Lazav spoiled, and immediately thought of breakfast as a 1-of. He can copy either half of the combo for relatively cheap, if one of your pieces gets killed or discarded.
A new creature spoiled from the upcoming set. There are some lists floating around playing 20+ creatures (Stoneforge Mystic, Recruiter, Abolisher etc. in addition to the combo creatures), where this could be the most compact kill for the deck in only one card.
Cons:
- vulnerable to damage prevention (Solitary Confinement, Runed Halo) and lifegain (is there any around right now?)
- more vulnerable when casting Dread Return if you have missed with Therapies
Pros:
- less dead cards in the maindeck
Any thoughts on that?
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
the new giant? I like it. pro is dread return kills your creatures to get it going
edit- you can also play it with the new card that exiles to lightning helix your opponent's.
going back a bit.
cards that are not thalia that also stop opponent from interacting are Sanctum Prelate, Meddling Made, and Grand Abolisher
Good catch on the giant! To go that route, I'd get to go -1 Hapless Researcher, -1 Lab Man, -1 angel, +1 Giant. That's two spots freed up for utility creatures. I've really been liking snapcaster, myself.
I think my list would look something like:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Nomads en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Lazav, the Multifarious
2 Baleful Strix
3 Narcomoeba
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Lotleth Giant
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
1 Dread Return
4 Aether Vial
19 Land
SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Spell Pierce
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Disenchant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meddling Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Containment Priest
1 Collective Brutality
Another point in favor of giant, is that if you've done some damage, potentially you don't have to mill your whole library to dread return a giant. Sometimes, in grindy games, I'm milling with just mother of runes and illusionist targeting itself, which can put enough in the yard for lethal.
Played this pile of Legacy-legal cards tonight.
I played two matches then got the BYE and had one game against someone who didn't make it to the tournament in time. So take this with the grain of salt that it deserves.
* Do NOT shortcut the combo and flip your deck into the yard. You can get close to a kill without doing that. Dumping your graveyard prevents you from taking a followup turn and, say, swinging with a 6/5.
* While you're NOT shortcutting, keep count of creatures in the 'yard. Remember that you're saccing three. DO NOT forget that you can use Cabal Therapy to remove another creature if needed.
* I think a Shuko build is probably better. You'd add Stoneforge, effectively doubling one half of the combo. That Stoneforge would include a real equipment package, which would work as an alternate win condition. It would also serve to potentially disguise the combo pre-sideboard. Oh, and it would make you way stronger against Graveyard hate.
* Maxing out Snapcasters seems good. It increases creature count and you can mill to power it up.
* Maxing out Narcomoeba seems good as well. Mostly so you don't have to Brainstorm as many things back.
Image of me missing by 1, forgetting that a flashbacked Therapy would get me there:
My very cute opponent:
My dinner:
Another card that may be useful is Sphinx of Foresight
1) Sphinx is better than Serum Powder on the draw (in terms of getting combo pieces)
2) Sphinx also doesn't exile your hand like Powder so you can run it with more fragile combos.
3) Unlike Powder, Spinx is not a total dead card since it can be pitched to FOW, imprinted on Chrome Mox, and even played as a threat if need be.
4) Granted (1) is only useful 50% of Game 1's, but lets say it provides a minus on the play by 10%, as long as it provides a plus on the play of 10+%, it should still overall be a positive addition.
While people are thinking of oops or spells, I'm thinking of Breakfast. That seems like the perfect combo to help with the sphinx (i.e. fragile pieces that aren't exiled with powder, two cards that you must get in hand, running blue for FOW).
Proposed List:
What did I have for Breakfast?
"Sphinx Suite"
4 Sphinx of Foresight
4 Force of Will
4 Chrome Mox
"Cephalid Combo"
4 Nomads en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Lazav, the Multifarious
4 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Narcomoeba
1 Lotleth Giant
1 Dread Return
(with Sphinx you run at least 24 creature for Lotleth Giant kill)
"Other Blue Stuff"
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Open Spots
17 Lands
i think you can pass on chrome mox really. 4 recruiters not necessary either.
New Lavinia slots into this deck well.
I think you need Mox just to deal with the Sphinx you draw past turn 1, Also provides nice accel in case you need it to combo out early. As for recruiter - probably don't need 4, just provided that number so that people can fool around with it. You can probably take out 2 of them and bumb the open spots of the deck up to 4.
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