Ooh bringing it back!
Do y'all really think black is worth it for 2 cabal therapies and strix in SB? I don't want to splurge for a usea. Do have a scrub tho.
I should play it out. Have to wait 2 weeks I guess.
What about vedalken aethermage to sidestep yard hate? Tutor lab man and go off?
I'll build it up and play it not this Friday, but next Friday. I'll go close to angry bacon minus the canals and strixs. I have them, and could always do a watery grave til something else, but still iffy on that.
With Deathrite Shaman banned I'm returning to all my graveyard combo decks, including Breakfast!
I notice many lists are including Stoneforge Mystic and Mother of Runes in the maindeck to allow them to go midrange G1. Given you expect to see almost no graveyard hate in G1 now, could it be better to be more "all-in" G1 and then diversify strategy postboard if necessary? In my mind, with DRS gone, I'm wondering what deck I would actually want to go midrange against G1. I'd rather just kill people with the combo as quickly as possible to take advantage of the lack of GY disruption in almost all decks now. With Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls to play around counterspells, and discard and your own counterspells to protect the combo pieces and the combo from spot removal, I feel this deck could be extremely fast and resilient G1. Perhaps something like this?
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Aether Vial
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Nomads en-Kor
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Daze
3 Lim-Dul’s Vault
3 Narcomoeba
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Shaman en-Kor
1 Dread Return
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Force of Will
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Angel of Glory’s Rise
With both Cavern and Vial, there are hands in this deck that counterspells just can't beat: T1 Cavern on Wizard into Aether Vial, T2 cast Illusionist and Vial in Nomads, for example, is I think the quickest one that is counterspell immune. I know splashing G would be even faster because you get Worldly Tutor at one mana vs. Lim-Dul's Vault at two mana, but I think the consistency of a three-colour manabase is a reasonable trade-ff for that. But if you were willing to take the risk you can certainly make G work, and I've done it in the past. If, though, you want the option to grind post-board , as I think I would, it might be better to stick to Esper.
The combo in the above list is 15 cards exactly:
3 Nomads en-Kor
1 Shaman en-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
so you can go fully transformational against some decks and play for speed with a little hate against others with the something like the following sideboard:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
1 Tundra
SFM + TNN + STP just seems mental with Vial and LDV to find the pieces you're missing. If you want to keep the combo in, you can use Disenchant and ETruth to beat most of what you would expect for graveyard hate.
One think I'm not sure about, though, is exactly which decks I would want to go transformational against. It feels best against U tempo, midrange, and control (Grixis, UW Stoneblade, BUG Control, UW Landstill, etc.) and less good against non-U midrange/control (D&T and Maverick) and combo.
Compacta, AngryBacon, and ZifBox, did you end up playing it? What was your list and what did you think?
pandaman, this was my list pre-ban, it worked quite ok:
4 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Nomad En-Kor
1 Shaman En-Kor
2 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Narcomoeba
1 Azami, lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory Rise
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Plains
60
Sideboard
2 Dark Confidant
2 Disenchant
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Underground Sea
Too much caverns mess up with your cantrips, daze, etc, but 2 can be manageable. Recruiters help find your pieces, or alternate wins post board or TNN in game 2 or 3. Mom is such a help to protect yourself against removal, because that is our biggest problem if not gravehate. The SFM was a good answer against deathrite, but even without deathrite, it can take care of the opponent, especially with mom. If they spend resources on it, fine, more chances for you to combo of.
I like going all-in on the glass cannon idea, especially with force/daze backup. But having that extra angle of attack/diversion is sometimes all you need. Especially pre-board (people will suspect a kind of DnT build when they see Mom popping up and might blow their answers on her and you combo of without them realising you were a combo deck) on the other hand, if they don't things can get out of hand quickly, or you can prolong the game to combo off.
My two cents.
Again, this was my list, PRE-BAN.
I won't be able to play until Friday Aug 3. I'll likely play with a watery grave in place of the underground. I have the other duals.Originally Posted by Xod
The legacy premier league played it last night and did very well. I'll probably play closer to that list with shuko in the main.
I'm not entirely sure that underground is even necessary, but I understand getting stuck with Dread in hand or something like that. Same with cabal therapys. But I should play the list as close as possible to the most of what everyone thinks before I go changing anything.
SB will be a stoneblade transformation with some other hate as well. Probably Surgicals and Flusterstorms.
Sweet to see all these posts. I last posted in this thread a year and a half ago, but I've brought breakfast to many a local legacy event since then. The deck is always decent I thought, even with DRS running around. Makes sense that it would improve with the ban.
For all who are choosing to run Azami over hapless researcher, I think that's a mistake. Researcher being a 1-drop that helps sculpt your hand has been very useful. He bins stuff like angels and dread returns that would otherwise make comboing off harder. And I have NEVER lost to removal after a resolved dread return. By that point, you should have therapies in the yard to strip whatever removal they may have. Usually you can therapy halfway through your mill process, too, to be extra safe. To that same point, I feel like grand abolisher is overkill, too, eapecially after the ban.
I've had pretty good success with making the sideboard be a stoneblade plan B, with grave hate and 1-2 silver bullets thrown in. The fun thing about this deck are the flex spots, and the last few times I ran it, mother of runes was a quite good, doibling as a removal magnet and combo protector game one, and useful game two playing as a stoneblade deck.
The Nobodys, I have been back and forth between Azami and Researcher for the same reason. I always like to start with the most resilient option, though, so I have started back with Azami. I could easily be convinced to replace her with Researcher again, though. I've played without Abolisher too, but as with Azami, I am starting back with the most resilient option. It would be nice to be able to cut Abolisher, though, to have the extra slot available. I'll see how good I can get at playing around removal first.
Would you mind posting your list? It's not clear from your post whether you have the Stoneforge Mystic part-maindeck or completely from the sideboard (you imply completely from the sideboard but I'd like to be sure), and I would love to see what you've been playing during the Deathrite years.
So the angel brings back hapless and lab man and you just cantrip the once?
Assuming grand abolisher as well that makes sense After Dread.
Still same number of pieces though? I'd be inclined to try that at least once.
Gonna start with mimeoplasm though, bc mimeoplasm is badass.
I don't have all the pieces yet, so I wasn't able to play this deck in my LGS's local event last week. I proxied up the few things I'm missing though and jammed a few practice games. Lim-Dul's Vault felt really good the one time I cast it; I might want a second one.
With Grand Abolisher in the deck, Hapless Researcher seems a LOT better than Azami, so I'm definitely planning to make switch. I'm also favoring Abolisher over Mom due to not needing to untap with it first.
Is there any real reason to run Mimeoplasm over Angel of Glory's Rise? Seems roughly equivalent, with Hapless Researcher's pre-combo playability giving Angel a slight edge.
I personally just play researcher, no grand abolisher. This is because I will cast a cabal therapy usually as soon as I mill it if I have an extra critter to sac, which I should (a narcomoeba usually). I name force of will to protect resolving dread return. Then I see their hand, and if they have instant removal, I strip it with a second therapy. If opponent has open mana and two instant removals with different names, AND I don't have an active mom, then I guess I lose that game. But then again, I would have looked at their hand with the first thterapy (which I cast before finishing the mill process), realized I wouldn't be able to combo that turn, and stopped milling myself.
This very corner case scenario (especially game 1), to me, doesn't justify the inclusion of a card like abolisher which is just there to protect the combo turn.
@Pandaman - I keep checking this thread away from my house, so I can't check my deckbox to see what I ran last time I played. I'll post a pre-ban list sometime, though.
- Laboratory Maniac, Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Angel of Glory's Rise, 3 slots
- The Mimeoplasm, Lord of Exctinction and Murderous Redcap, 3 slots
- Sutured Ghoul and Dragon Breath, 2 slots
Murderous Redcap actually deals damage and targets our opponent, those are 2 criterias that can be hated out.
The current 3 viable options are hated out as such:
- Laboratory Maniac: Instant-speed removal; Leovold, Emissary of Trest
Our 3-4 Cabal Therapy also need to clear: 1. Business in hand 2. Force of Will 3. Surgical Extraction like cards 4. Instant-speed removal.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest would mean we win next turn on their upkeep.
- Murderous Redcap: Leyline of Sanctity; Solitary Confinement like cards; Stifle
Our 3-4 Cabal Therapy also need to clear: 1. Business in hand 2. Force of Will 3. Surgical Extraction like cards 4. Stifle like cards.
Stifle is impossible to play around, unless of course I'm mistaken about how Persist works on The Mimeoplasm.
- Sutured Ghoul: Instant-speed removal; Ensnaring Bridge like cards; Solitary Confinement like cards; Stifle
Our 3-4 Cabal Therapy also need to clear: 1. Business in hand 2. Force of Will 3. Surgical Extraction like cards.
You can play around Stifle by leaving a few cards in your library so that you can attack next turn without Haste.
Both the 2 latter options requires a high amount of force across all creatures we play. Tarmogoyf was always the number one candidate, but like I mentioned last week or so, that requires a green splash in the Sutured Ghoul which I would replace with Jotun Grunt instead (natural predator of Mongoose decks in the first place).
So I don't believe there's an actual benefit of Murderous Redcap over Laboratory Maniac kills, other than being able to list The Mimeoplasm in your deck list ;-)
About the Azami, Lady of Scrolls versus Hapless Researcher, the latter helps reduce the count of Cabal Therapy of 1 when slots are needed, it's a less dead card than the former in the sense that it replaces itself while also being able to block and essentially Time Walk for a turn. But it also forces you to have Grand Abolisher in the 75, because you rely on a single draw. A single remobal can also sometimes be played around by just waiting for them to try and remove the Laboratory Maniac on your next draw step and draw in reponse.
OK, took a look at the last list I played. It was:
Spells 41
3 Mother of Runes
4 Aether Vial
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Hapless Researcher
4 Brainstorm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ponder
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Nomads en-Kor
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Narcomoeba
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
Land 19
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Seachrome Coast
10 Fetchlands
SB:
1 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Disenchant
1 Containment Priest
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
The inquisitions and snappcasters I believe were being tested out, at the legacy FNM I went to. I really liked snappy, rebuying brainstorm off of vial, don't remember how the inquisitions did. Record with the list was 3-1, but I only remember beating Elves (very luckily) in a hilariously drawn-out match, and losing to burn because I tried to go for the combo again in game two instead of just jamming Jitte and grinding.
Curious about your land count. I'm playing drastically fewer (16), 'cuz I consider vials to be a mana source. I'm playing 4 ponders instead.
Are you happy, at 19? Do you ever feel flooded?
19 Lands might be a little high, but 16 sounds low to me. Don't you ever worry about wasteland, or stifle, or playing around daze? Also, while the combo itself runs off of just a couple lands, playing a more fair game after sideboard means getting to 3 reliably. Just my personal preference, though.
Delver decks plays 18 lands, 4 of which are Wasteland, for an effective count of 14. /shrug
I'm certainly open to playing more, but I want more reps with my current iteration before making changes.
Despite Shuko being a non-optimal combo piece (compared to an en-Kor), being fetchable with SFM has always put a copy into the 60 when I ran SFM. The drawback of being sorcery speed almost never matters, given that if they have a removal spell, they can always kill the Illusionist or en-Kor with the other piece (or vial activation) on the stack.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Hey :-) Did not know you also played Cephalid
If Shuko draws en-Kor to less than 4 copies then I still believe it's a bad idea, en-Kor creatures have more synergies with the rest of the deck in its Stoneblade forms, being a creature deck ultimately. A board that includes en-Kor and TNN or other protected creatures (SoFaI and Mom mostly) can be pretty difficult to handle for the opponent.
I played Breakfast in Extended and sometimes test it online for Legacy. The old BZK and Storm Boards non-storm sections are littered with things like 5c Budget Breakfast and UB Breakfast. It's not a budget deck anymore, but I think it's one of the best shells for the Angel/LabMan kill so I still test it from time to time.
Something I'm currently curious about is if Angel/LabMan is better than being green for Goyf and using Sutures Ghoul (like the old CB lists). RiP isn't that heavily played, and Goyf makes the Daze/Force/therapy/seize plan much more credible. I'm not sure exactly how to work in both SFM and Goyf, but if it can be done I think the deck has a good chance of moving seemlessly between combo and aggro-control in a way legacy hasn't seen recently.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I am truly more in favor of Jotun Grunt to be honest. Makes Mongooses and Tarmogoyfs miserable. Survives bolt and pressures well enough that they can't just wait for the 2 players to run out of graveyard (which might be something they don't want at all). Also it recoups equipments or recruiter targets sometimes. Flickerwisp is cute with Jotun Grunt too, we already run Vial and it's a recruiter target as well.
Now about Laboratory Maniac versus Ghoul plan, both are fine, active DRS was a PitA for both plans. It's mostly preference and what you want your secondary plan to look like. Personally, I'll be sleeving Jotun Grunt the coming weeks, simply because it can just present too many threats for their removal to be any effective against the combo. Still pondering what to do with the side though.
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