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Thread: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

  1. #661

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    you can just play them? 4/4 flyer for 4 is decent. Scry 1 every turn is good for a combo deck.

    The deck has a beat down plan B and that actually fits it very well IMO Sphinx with a sword or something is great.

  2. #662

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    looking for an up to date list if someone is willing to share? Much appreciated. :)

  3. #663

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    I played this to a cash finish at a local event recently

    3 nomad en kor
    4 cephalid illusionist
    4 stone forge mystic
    4 baleful strix
    1 narcomba
    1 vendillion clique
    1 true name nemisis
    1 spellstutter sprite
    1 fairer macarbe
    1 lotleth giant

    1 cabal therapy
    1 dread return
    2 fatal push
    4 brain storm
    4 force of will
    4 ponder
    1 fluster storm
    1 spell Peirce
    1 collective brutality

    10 fetch
    5 basics
    2 tundra
    1 scrub
    1 sea
    1 karakas


    Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

  4. #664

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Sorry, I'm drunk

    2 less ponder
    1 less spell Peirce

    1 shuko
    1sofi
    1 jitte

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  5. #665
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Javier Dominguez posted an excellent article on Hareruya that details the list he's on. Required reading for anyone who ever jammed this deck or considered jamming it.

    Introducing My Pet Deck: Cephalid Breakfast
    https://article.hareruyamtg.com/article/39389/?lang=en

  6. #666
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    It's a very good read, even learned a new Vial trick from it.

  7. #667
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Hi everyone,

    I hard-pivoted to this deck around the beginning of America's quarantine, inspired by both Javier Rodriguez's incredible article and playing like 10 rounds against it with a friend. The deck is phenomenal, and I've racked up triple-digit games with it since the start of summer.

    I learned to play by using Rodriguez's stock list and developed it to the list below:


    3 Aether Vial
    1 Shuko
    1 Batterskull
    4 Nomads en-Kor
    4 Cephalid Illusionist
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Narcomoeba
    1 Thassa's Oracle
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Once Upon a Time
    2 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    3 Tundra
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Tropical Island
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Cavern of Souls
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Ponder
    2 Cabal Therapy
    1 Dread Return

    // SB
    1 Aether Vial
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    3 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Thassa's Oracle
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Daze


    Here are my thoughts (well, I have a lot of them, but here are some preliminary ones to get discussion going):

    -I moved up to four FOWs after playing two for ~3 months because they get better the worse Narcomoeba gets. I've found that Narcomoeba, despite being aggressively costed and a wonderful finisher on its own, just doesn't get there as often in this meta as he should. I do stand by Rodriguez's claim that Force of Will just feels generally bad in the deck, but I've found that the games I've lost due to not having a Force surpass the games that I've won off casting a Narcomoeba, even if I used that latter Narcomoeba as Cabal Therapy fodder.

    -True-Name is awesome! True-Name just steals you games against other fair decks, especially those that overprepare for the combo. While I have debated the effectiveness of this plan versus certain archetypes, particularly control piles, it's undeniable that siding into TNNs stretches your opponents' defensive resources thin enough to easily win post-board. It also just feels silly; I have a lot of fun doing it!

    -I've changed the Daze slot approximately 6 times, trying out random tech like Skyclave Apparition, Palace Jailer, Recruiter of the Guard (which I've cut from the main in favor of more protection), etc. I've found that most midrange-y, Esper Vial-y type cards like Skyclave do very little to secure wins. Almost every time you play cards like those, you wish you were just comboing off, rather than conceding to the fact that you're behind enough to make use of their effects. Thus, I think it's important to actually up your protection suite to bolster more coin-flippy matchups and swingy situations.

    -I heeded Rodriguez's advice to not play Surgical until recently. Every time I've cast a Surgical since adding them to my sideboard, I've won the game practically on the spot. I understand that sometimes Surgical just "does that." I cannot overstate, however, how Surgical just ruins most answers. Extracting spot removal in fair matchups, for instance -- especially when baiting it with value creatures like Stoneforge Mystic -- usually allows me to close out the game a turn or two after. I definitely considered these plays gratuitous ("win-more" maybe?) before actually making them: Surgical is just really freaking good. (It also betters the Reanimator matchup, which can be kind of tricky in my experience, but I need wayyyy more testing before I call that one.)

    -I don't like Jitte. Most often it becomes an elk or a 2/2 spirit. But I've thought so little about its presence in my sideboard that I haven't even contemplated what would replace it... I've been meaning to test T3feri but I don't feel like the slots are analogous.

    Finally, I personally believe that forums are the best platform for long-form deck discussion. For those that are Discord-inclined, however, I recently made a server dedicated to the deck that you can join through this link. It's still very small and consists mostly of me talking to myself, but I'd love to see it thrive.

    Okay, those were some initial before-bed observations about my build to revive the thread. I welcome all questions about it and would love to see other brews, too. Happy cooking!
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    He doesn’t have wasteland this turn, but he finds it the next. And wastes my Maze. I do get 1 zombie, but apparently stealing a zombie is just an act of petty theft? Seems like kind of a big theft to me since it stole the whole game... I die.

  8. #668

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by alec View Post
    -True-Name is awesome! True-Name just steals you games against other fair decks, especially those that overprepare for the combo. While I have debated the effectiveness of this plan versus certain archetypes, particularly control piles, it's undeniable that siding into TNNs stretches your opponents' defensive resources thin enough to easily win post-board. It also just feels silly; I have a lot of fun doing it!
    I really dislike TNN as a plan in a combo that already dies to plague engineer. Perhaps mirran crusader + sword of war and peace?



    Its a bit out there, but I have always been interested in slotting in the Divining witch/thassa's oracle combo instead of the SFM package in breakfast.

    There are a lot of overlap and synergies:
    1. You are running vial/1x thassa's oracle/cavern/ouat anyways,
    2. 4x TO means you can pitch them to fow,
    3. TO in hand + combo means you beat gy hate,
    4. Multiple TOs means you can run 1x [cards]Memory's Journey[cards] + an extra dread return sideboard to always beat surgical if you have extra mana.
    5. Doomsday witch is still a tutor for either piece of the main combo.
    6. The witch converts dead cards in hand bfb/therapy/narcos into real cards, providing pseudo card advantage.
    7. The witch combo avoids gy hate inherently.

  9. #669
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I really dislike TNN as a plan in a combo that already dies to plague engineer. Perhaps mirran crusader + sword of war and peace?[/LIST]
    Hmm, that's actually a really interesting option! IME, TNN is great because it kind of forces them to commit a PE to killing it, which nets you an advantage when it comes time to combo, but I get that it isn't great if you're constantly running up against multiple PEs. (I haven't been, so I can't speak to that.) I appreciate the suggestion, and Crusader is already a pet card of mine: Maybe I'll test out a different creature package sometime.



    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Its a bit out there, but I have always been interested in slotting in the Divining witch/thassa's oracle combo instead of the SFM package in breakfast.
    I've thought about this as well actually! The problem that I have with the Witch, in theory, is that summoning sickness is real, and the relevant synergies of your combo pieces (Nomads en-Kor + TNN for instance, or using Nomads to dodge direct damage to your combo pieces, or using Stoneforge to force a Shuko through countermagic, etc.) can completely swing a combo turn in your favor. Breakfast's mana efficiency is also really high (3-mana base combo that can curve out to win at instant speed on turn 2), which outclasses the mana requirements of Witch (2 mana to cast Witch, activate Witch, cast Oracle; splittable across multiple turns and definitely Vialable, yet requires passing the turn without Vial). In essence, I think Breakfast is more resilient than it seems - and maybe more resilient than the Witch combo. Thus, I haven't really considered switching to any other archetype.

    That being said, I'd be willing to try it out sometime! My instincts just say no to any meal past brunch. I'll keep you updated if I try it out, though, and encourage you to give it a spin!
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    He doesn’t have wasteland this turn, but he finds it the next. And wastes my Maze. I do get 1 zombie, but apparently stealing a zombie is just an act of petty theft? Seems like kind of a big theft to me since it stole the whole game... I die.

  10. #670

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by alec View Post
    Hmm, that's actually a really interesting option! IME, TNN is great because it kind of forces them to commit a PE to killing it, which nets you an advantage when it comes time to combo, but I get that it isn't great if you're constantly running up against multiple PEs. (I haven't been, so I can't speak to that.) I appreciate the suggestion, and Crusader is already a pet card of mine: Maybe I'll test out a different creature package sometime.





    I've thought about this as well actually! The problem that I have with the Witch, in theory, is that summoning sickness is real, and the relevant synergies of your combo pieces (Nomads en-Kor + TNN for instance, or using Nomads to dodge direct damage to your combo pieces, or using Stoneforge to force a Shuko through countermagic, etc.) can completely swing a combo turn in your favor. Breakfast's mana efficiency is also really high (3-mana base combo that can curve out to win at instant speed on turn 2), which outclasses the mana requirements of Witch (2 mana to cast Witch, activate Witch, cast Oracle; splittable across multiple turns and definitely Vialable, yet requires passing the turn without Vial). In essence, I think Breakfast is more resilient than it seems - and maybe more resilient than the Witch combo. Thus, I haven't really considered switching to any other archetype.

    That being said, I'd be willing to try it out sometime! My instincts just say no to any meal past brunch. I'll keep you updated if I try it out, though, and encourage you to give it a spin!
    This would not be instead of the breakfast combo, but in addition to it instead of the fair sfm plan. Aren't all you things about untapping/removal/mana efficiency also true of shuko/batterskull?

  11. #671

  12. #672
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    This would not be instead of the breakfast combo, but in addition to it instead of the fair sfm plan. Aren't all you things about untapping/removal/mana efficiency also true of shuko/batterskull?
    Not necessarily: You can turn 1 combo piece into turn 2 combo piece and win on the spot without ever passing the turn. With Divining Witch, you would need to get to at least turn 3 no matter what, even with a Vial, because of summoning sickness or waiting to tick up Vial to 2 before you Vial in the Witch on end step in the latter. The former combo's speed is absolutely crucial: it represents a clock that's almost unbeatable for fair decks that don't have an answer before then, and even if they do, you can grind them into dust right after.

    I can't stress enough how Breakfast gains "virtual card advantage" (for lack of a better term; I know it's not perfect in this context, but bear with me) by presenting multiple angles of attack. The reason you win so many games is because you can pull off either a turn-2 win with two cards or present so many threats in the form of SFM/Vial black-boxing and TNN post-board that your opponent inevitably stretches thin. You just body most fair decks because they can't keep up with the sheer spectrum of strategy that the deck presents.

    I don't think the Witch version necessarily presents the same at first glance, especially because of its overreliance on Thassa's Oracle, but I could be wrong: Witch is kind of "another Stoneforge" in the same way that you mention above (tapping 2 and tapping the creature to win rather than to put in a Batterskull). I like that approach, and I'll have to play with it before making any further comments; I just wanted to defend the fair plan because it takes on a role that's hard to discuss in theory yet absolutely pivotal to winning in practice. Thanks for the list: I'll keep this thread updated with more observations if I get the chance to test it out!
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    He doesn’t have wasteland this turn, but he finds it the next. And wastes my Maze. I do get 1 zombie, but apparently stealing a zombie is just an act of petty theft? Seems like kind of a big theft to me since it stole the whole game... I die.

  13. #673

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by alec View Post
    Not necessarily: You can turn 1 combo piece into turn 2 combo piece and win on the spot without ever passing the turn. With Divining Witch, you would need to get to at least turn 3 no matter what, even with a Vial, because of summoning sickness or waiting to tick up Vial to 2 before you Vial in the Witch on end step in the latter. The former combo's speed is absolutely crucial: it represents a clock that's almost unbeatable for fair decks that don't have an answer before then, and even if they do, you can grind them into dust right after.
    I think that is not a fair example. You aren't really representing that with SFM if you are only running 1 shuko instead of 4. That also opens you up to artifact hate and countermagic. But I will buy that sfm does something even if it is removed and witch does not.

    I don't think the Witch version necessarily presents the same at first glance, especially because of its overreliance on Thassa's Oracle, but I could be wrong: Witch is kind of "another Stoneforge" in the same way that you mention above (tapping 2 and tapping the creature to win rather than to put in a Batterskull). I like that approach, and I'll have to play with it before making any further comments; I just wanted to defend the fair plan because it takes on a role that's hard to discuss in theory yet absolutely pivotal to winning in practice. Thanks for the list: I'll keep this thread updated with more observations if I get the chance to test it out!
    A fair plan is definitely great and should not be understated. I also have only dabbled in the deck so my theory crafting should be taken with a grain of salt. However the demise of Stoneblade and the success of various paradigm shift brews made me wonder if the fair plan is worse than it used to be. The other advantage of witch over sfm is you get rid of all non-creature W requirements. This would allow you to run additional basics and the full 4 cavern.

    Nice mana witch breakfast (if you want a stupid traditional name: cookie crisp is a cereal with a wizard on it)


    4 Cavern of Souls
    1 Tundra
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    4 Nomads en-Kor
    4 Cephalid Illusionist
    4 Divining Witch
    4 Thassa's Oracle
    2 Ponder
    2 Cabal Therapy
    4 Thoughtseize/Giver of Runes
    4 Aether Vial
    3 Narcomoeba
    1 Dread Return
    1 Bridge from Below
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm


    // SB
    3 Skyclave Apparition
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Coffin Purge
    1 Dread Return
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Liliana, the Last hope


    Everything white is kor in this case, so you have 14+ 4(vial) sources for kor, 13 soures for brainstorm and 11 sources for Cabal Therapy.

  14. #674
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I think that is not a fair example. You aren't really representing that with SFM if you are only running 1 shuko instead of 4. That also opens you up to artifact hate and countermagic. But I will buy that sfm does something even if it is removed and witch does not.
    I hope I don't offend with this response, but I'm confused. My comment on representation which you quoted wasn't about Stoneforge: I'm saying that Breakfast's 3-mana, two-turn, two-card combo represents a clock that is unbeatable by fair decks unless they have an immediate answer, a clock which Divining Witch cannot beat either because of its summoning sickness and mana requirements. I have already paralleled Stoneforge and Divining Witch, so we're in agreement there, but I'm talking about the Breakfast combo specifically. Divining Witch is a harder sell when it requires at least 4 mana and passing the turn by default, which the Breakfast combo does not. I am also now confused as to where Shuko comes into the quote? Stoneforge makes the combo more expensive if you're going the Shuko-tutor route, but you don't actually need her to combo off with Shuko nor Nomad, both of which can be played on turn 1 even if they're more answerable should you do so.

    I just goldfished the Cookie Crisp build for a little while to observe typical opening hands and decision trees. On the surface, it struggles in the same ways that DETH sometimes does, where you pick your gameplan depending on what cards you draw first and what you see soon after. The immediate problem that I foresee with this setup is that you don't develop a board state worth writing home about until you draw another combo piece, which is rather hard when those combo pieces don't necessarily synergize besides using Thassa's Oracle as a wincon. Also, no creatures share types other than Oracle and Illusionist; you have to lean into more colors more frequently which makes fetching even more difficult than traditional Breakfast; etc etc. The original Breakfast build synergistically expands your routes to victory while also providing an intensely quick combo kill using just two cards and three mana. This list doesn't appear to really maximize on any particular combo enough to guarantee that kind of consistency.

    I know I should at least play a game with the deck before providing a verdict; even an hour of goldfishing doesn't simulate how it really plays. But I just don't feel too strongly about it playstyle-wise and would rather fine-tune my existing build. Maybe you, or someone else in the thread, can give it a spin and return with some results/observations/analysis? I'd fully support your decision to do so and I'd love to revisit it if you like what you see!

    Contrary to my previous comments, Divining Witch is definitely slept-on, and I think Breakfast provides a decent framework for how to build that kind of a combo deck. Vial is one hell of a drug. I'll certainly keep it on the backburner and consider it a via[la]ble strategy for further tinkering! And finally, I'm thinking of giving Mirran Crusader a spin in some live games over the next day. I'll definitely report back with how I feel about him (and maybe some other equipment options in the SB), and I really appreciate those suggestions!
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    He doesn’t have wasteland this turn, but he finds it the next. And wastes my Maze. I do get 1 zombie, but apparently stealing a zombie is just an act of petty theft? Seems like kind of a big theft to me since it stole the whole game... I die.

  15. #675

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    I hope I don't offend with this response, but I'm confused. My comment on representation which you quoted wasn't about Stoneforge: I'm saying that Breakfast's 3-mana, two-turn, two-card combo represents a clock that is unbeatable by fair decks unless they have an immediate answer, a clock which Divining Witch cannot beat either because of its summoning sickness and mana requirements. I have already paralleled Stoneforge and Divining Witch, so we're in agreement there, but I'm talking about the Breakfast combo specifically. Divining Witch is a harder sell when it requires at least 4 mana and passing the turn by default, which the Breakfast combo does not. I am also now confused as to where Shuko comes into the quote? Stoneforge makes the combo more expensive if you're going the Shuko-tutor route, but you don't actually need her to combo off with Shuko nor Nomad, both of which can be played on turn 1 even if they're more answerable should you do so.
    Ok I was confused too. I thought you were saying that shuko is better than divining witch because you can T2 kill with it. I didn't really understand you were talking about the main combo; there is no difference because the combo package is the same?

  16. #676
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Ok I was confused too. I thought you were saying that shuko is better than divining witch because you can T2 kill with it. I didn't really understand you were talking about the main combo; there is no difference because the combo package is the same?
    Glad I could clarify! What I'm trying to say is really just that Divining Witch doesn't do anything that the Cephalid Breakfast combo -- which is Illusionist + one-drop -- can't do faster in theory (hence the mana talk), and goldfishing both combos together seems to dilute the two game plans to the point where increasing the synergies and consistency of only one build seems to be a better call all around. I think Divining Witch is super powerful, and than a "fair" game plan, but the hybrid build proposed above doesn't appear to do much more to help you win than cards like SFM. Either way, I'm open to exploring it, and encourage you to do so if you're interested!
    Quote Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi View Post
    He doesn’t have wasteland this turn, but he finds it the next. And wastes my Maze. I do get 1 zombie, but apparently stealing a zombie is just an act of petty theft? Seems like kind of a big theft to me since it stole the whole game... I die.

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