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Thread: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

  1. #41

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by dragon_demon1 View Post
    also the deck loses to Leyline, the new SUPER populat gravehater...

    The problme theis deck has it it scoops to gravehate, serious grave hate, not light stuff, but Crypt, Extripate, Leyline, Planer Void, etc. all nerf it...
    The deck doesn't lose to Crypt, your opponent just puts 4 Narcomoeba on the board and attacks in the air while En-Kor and Illusionist block on the ground. The deck doesn't lose to Extirpate either, your opponent just puts 1 Narcomoeba on the board and sacrifices it to Cabal Therapy (rinse and repeat). Your opponent can also just sacrifice all of his Narcomoebas to Mind Twist you and then tutor for an alternate win condition (Living Wish or Gaea's Blessing). You can get away with Crypt in Goblins, but it's awful in Threshold. You really want either Leyline or Planar Void for the graveyard, or Engineered Explosives, Pyrite Spellbomb or Seal of Fire etc. for the Illusionist. It's really easy to win around Crypt or Mage on Dread Return or Needle on your kill condition as long as you aren't facing Aggro esq. pressure behind them.

    The deck is almost identical to Flash, it just has a non-graveyard based weakness that gives aggro a fighting chance. No one is saying the deck is as good as Flash was, but even being half as good as Flash is still enough to over power most of the decks in the format. Unless people metagame for Breakfast, it'll continue to put up some serious results. There's also a lot of innovation to be had with the deck itself, Sylvan Library is an incredible cantrip/draw engine for instance.
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  2. #42
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Di View Post
    That's actually a pretty good idea as it gives you an alternative win condition in the maindeck better than the Dreadnought outlet. However, I think the concern would be lack of space. The combo already requires a lot of slots, and when you factor in disruption/protection and draw/tutor, it's rather difficult to fit the extra 2 Tarmogoyfs in.
    You can do it by cutting the 2x Calls. Thats one option.

    On a side note, vialing in Tarmogoyf seems amazing against so so many decks.
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  3. #43
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    The deck doesn't lose to Crypt, your opponent just puts 4 Narcomoeba on the board and attacks in the air while En-Kor and Illusionist block on the ground.
    This only works if your opponent doesn't play creatures or creature removal. Seems more of a backup plan. And you do realize that putting 4 narcs on the board for the win is pretty rare right? Unless you cantrip into 4 narcs/tutors. In which case your opponent deserves to lose because his deck can't stop 1/1 fliers.

    The deck doesn't lose to Extirpate either, your opponent just puts 1 Narcomoeba on the board and sacrifices it to Cabal Therapy (rinse and repeat).
    Sure, but if you have no creatures in your hand your opponent just extirpates the narcs and you can enjoy trying to flash back dread return.

    Your opponent can also just sacrifice all of his Narcomoebas to Mind Twist you and then tutor for an alternate win condition (Living Wish or Gaea's Blessing).
    How? Multiple therapy flashbacks?

    You can get away with Crypt in Goblins, but it's awful in Threshold. You really want either Leyline or Planar Void for the graveyard, or Engineered Explosives, Pyrite Spellbomb or Seal of Fire etc. for the Illusionist. It's really easy to win around Crypt or Mage on Dread Return or Needle on your kill condition as long as you aren't facing Aggro esq. pressure behind them.
    I didn't realize that threshold and goblins were the only viable decks in vintage. I'm so sorry.

    The deck is almost identical to Flash, it just has a non-graveyard based weakness that gives aggro a fighting chance. No one is saying the deck is as good as Flash was, but even being half as good as Flash is still enough to over power most of the decks in the format. Unless people metagame for Breakfast, it'll continue to put up some serious results. There's also a lot of innovation to be had with the deck itself, Sylvan Library is an incredible cantrip/draw engine for instance.
    I agree that it's a great deck and there's a ton of innovation to be had, I remember the early editions included library and dark confidant in the board.
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  4. #44

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    If the opponent plays Crypt, you can mill yourself three cards at a time. At this point the opponent can't sacrifice Crypt, because it's keeping you off of your combo. It's not Plan A, but 1 Nomad En-Kor, 1 Cephallid Illusionist and 4 Narcomoeba on the board can still win the game, and if it can't, you can Therapy your opponent's hand away (one Narcomoeba and one Therapy at a time) and block until you can draw/tutor/wish/mill an alternate win condition.

    If the opponent plays Extirpate on Narcomoeba, then you only need one more creature in order to Flashback Dread Return and you have 2 blockers standing in their way until you can find it. You can either draw/tutor/wish for it, or you can MD/SB a Roar of the Wurm, Call of the Herd, Acorn Harvest or Chatter of the Squirrel etc. for it.

    Goblins and Threshold weren't the point, the point was that Crypt only works in a deck that has multiple threats for pressure, because other wise the Narcomoeba's can attack in the air while En-Kor and Illusionist block on the ground and win the race.

    I've lost games against Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate, but I've also won games against Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate because I could still deck myself. Compared to Leyline of the Void, Planar Void, Yixlid Jailor, Samurai of the Pale Curtain etc., Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate are a nuisance. Even Coffin Purge is better than Extirpate, because Breakfast can't "discard" it or play around it.

    Edit: You can also SB in Ancient Grudge(s), which force the activation of Tormod's Crypt and remove Pithing Needle on your Kiki win condition. Crippling Fatigue serves a similar role against Meddling Mage on Dread Return for those that need/want an answer to it.
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  5. #45
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    You're making the assumption that Dread Return isn't milled before you have the opportunity to Therapy out Extirpate. This is pretty stupid planning.

  6. #46
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Or that your opponents win condition is in the gy (ghoul/kiki etc..)
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline retarded.
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  7. #47

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post
    You're making the assumption that Dread Return isn't milled before you have the opportunity to Therapy out Extirpate. This is pretty stupid planning.
    If you don't know the opponent has Extirpate, you begin to mill your deck any way. If you do know the opponent has Extirpate, or you expect the opponent has Extirpate, you can either draw/tutor for the discard or begin to mill your deck (assuming you just don't have the time to draw/tutor for discard). I'm not saying that the deck can't lose to Extirpate, I'm saying that the deck can play around Extirpate by decking, therefor Leyline of the Void, Planar Void or Yixlid Jailor etc. are preferable because you don't give your opponent any outs (not to mention reactive answers are awful anyway against a deck with discard, if you put your answer on the board, then the opponent has to find bounce).

    Edit: And you're assuming that the deck loses if the Extirpate RFGs the Dread Return or kill condition, when you can just continue to mill your deck for Narcomoebas and a Flashback creature etc.

    It's the equivalent of countering the Donate, it stops the combo, but the combo deck is still in a better position to win than if you had countered the Grandeur. Targeting the cards the deck mills isn't as good as targeting the cards that mill the deck or targeting the mill altogether. That's the only point I wanted to get across.
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  8. #48
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    It's the equivalent of countering the Donate, it stops the combo, but the combo deck is still in a better position to win than if you had countered the Grandeur. Targeting the cards the deck mills isn't as good as targeting the cards that mill the deck or targeting the mill altogether. That's the only point I wanted to get across.

    That's not always the case. Countering the Donate potentially leaves them unable to pay the upkeep and lose yet another combo piece. You create Strawmen like I have never ever seen.

  9. #49
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by BreathWeapon View Post
    I'm not saying that the deck can't lose to Extirpate, I'm saying that the deck can play around Extirpate by decking.
    Ok so if I extirpate your ghoul/dread return/any combo creature the way you'll win is by decking yourself? I'm confused.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
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  10. #50
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Apparently he is under the impression that 4 Narocmoeba are somehow going to win the game. I mean, that seems perfectly reasonable, because it's not like people are playing removal in this format, or better creatures killing you or anything.

  11. #51
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Is Crypt good enough?

    You can prevent them from using Dread Return by using it before they have the combo, but they can also just slow mill themselves and Therapy you until you can't stop a Dreadnought.

    There is also the matter of artifact removal by the Breakfast player themselves. Slow milling into Cabal Therapy and Ancient Grudge is going to wreck the Crypt plan.

  12. #52

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Di View Post
    Apparently he is under the impression that 4 Narocmoeba are somehow going to win the game. I mean, that seems perfectly reasonable, because it's not like people are playing removal in this format, or better creatures killing you or anything.
    I never said that 4 Narcomoeba, 1 En-Kor and 1 Illusionist are guaranteed to win the game, I said that they can win the game. If you drop a 5 turn evasive clock, two blockers that can block any two creatures and live on your second turn and back it up with discard/counters, you can win the game.

    What it comes down to is that Crypt and Extirpate give the opponent outs, even if those outs are say 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 percent etc., that's not worth using that card against this deck over the alternatives.

    @Troopatroop, "Countering the Donate" is just an expression, it isn't meant to be taken literally. If you want another example, you counter the Buried Alive before you counter the Reanimates, because the Buried Alive puts the rest of your deck into a position to to be utilized. When you have one card that facilitates other cards in the deck, you deal with that card first. In this case, if you don't, your opponent mills Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Crippling Fatigue, Narcomoeba a Flashback creature etc. and has a chance to wiggle off of the hook.

    @Zulander, you mill until you can't afford to mill any more. If you play with a Gaea's Blessing, it isn't much of an issue.
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  13. #53
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus View Post
    Is Crypt good enough?

    You can prevent them from using Dread Return by using it before they have the combo, but they can also just slow mill themselves and Therapy you until you can't stop a Dreadnought.

    There is also the matter of artifact removal by the Breakfast player themselves. Slow milling into Cabal Therapy and Ancient Grudge is going to wreck the Crypt plan.
    As long as they don't mill away a combo piece then I'd agree. But is that a chance you're willing to take when you're playing the kiki version?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
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  14. #54
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    I would like to have a further discussion since it was just touched on during this thread about the 2 different win conditions that can be run in Cephalid Breakfast.

    Which version do you prefer?


    I've been running the kiki-jiki combo version and I'm really liking it, but I'm not sure if thats the best version to run. Seems like the Ghoul version has better answers to hate, but then again what do I know.
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  15. #55

    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Playing against this deck in a Nats side event, I thought I was going to die to Sutured Ghoul instinctively. When he showed Hussar/Kiki, it seemed better. If you have counterspell backup, then Kiki will not be susceptible to a BEB or STP or whatnot. That being said, I think both have their advantages. If I was taking this deck tomorrow, I'd bring Hussar/Kiki though.

    EDIT: Also, might I ask why Call is played over Living Wish? This would mean the single Stern Proctor and one Illusionist could be moved to board for 4x Wish, but then Worldly Tutor doesn't grab the 1/2. In all other instances it seems better though, as you can run en-Kors in the board as well as a Sex Monkey-esque toolbox. Thoughts?
    Last edited by laststepdown; 08-10-2007 at 02:04 AM.
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  16. #56
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Call is an instant, living wish isn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBFREELY
    You should all immediately fire emails at the DCI requesting the banning of Tarmogoyf and Golgari Grave-Troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm not compelled to address your non-argument based simply on the fact that you're obviously borderline retarded.
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  17. #57
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    I see that crypt does not work but it seems Leyline of the Void would hurt ya real bad because then you have to go beatdown or hard combo. Is there anyway around it for ya?
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  18. #58
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Tutor for Stern Proctor? The deck can deal with Leyline just as easily as it can deal with Crypt. Well, it's not technically easy, but it can deal with them both all the same. Post-board I imagine there are some configuation of Chain of Vapors or Echoing Truths for them as well.

  19. #59
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Tutor for Stern Proctor? The deck can deal with Leyline just as easily as it can deal with Crypt. Well, it's not technically easy, but it can deal with them both all the same. Post-board I imagine there are some configuation of Chain of Vapors or Echoing Truths for them as well.
    So in the mean time you need enough mana to combo off that turn or have enough counter magic to stop the replay? But if you are playing against black and hope to combo off they should at least have some creature kill saved up in hand and if so how would you win in that situation?
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  20. #60
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    Re: [Deck] Cephalid Breakfast

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosomo. View Post
    So in the mean time you need enough mana to combo off that turn or have enough counter magic to stop the replay? But if you are playing against black and hope to combo off they should at least have some creature kill saved up in hand and if so how would you win in that situation?
    EOT worldly tutor, and if u have vial at 2 u can vial proctor and then play both combo pieces for 3 mana that doesn't seem that hard since breakfast can mold it's hand quiet well.

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