Yeah.
"Kevin presents the deck he believes is the best choice for the upcoming Legacy championships. He's been tuning a combo-control deck for over five months, and he's finally ready to share the results..."
That a Tier 2 Extended deck is the correct deck to play in a large Legacy event?
Originally Posted by nedleeds
I'm tired of reading bad articles by Anusien, I'm writing StarCityGames asking them to stop printing his stuff.
outpost1@starcitygames.com
Here's what I posted:
I question your Goblin matchup, at least with the SB strategy you posted. First, R/G is the most common Goblin variants and they always pack Grips in the sideboard (mono-Red has Tinkerers, which is even worse). Second: unless you wait until four mana to initiate the Chant lock, you give them room to Hooligan your scepter. Third: AEther Vial means they can still deal the final points with Siege-Gang Commander(s). Fourth: your removal and blockers are just plain worse than old UW Landstill's, and Landstill was already even at best against Goblins.
I question your Threshold matchup. You have only three removal spells for each of their main threats (3 Starstorms - six mana plus Daze - for Goose, 3 StP for Goyf). They usually maindeck either Stifle or Spell Snare, both insane against you. They run more countermagic than you, which incidentally increases their chances of breaking off a Scepter lock and resolve Explosives. Postboard they have Grip (omg), Counterbalance (omfg), or both; you have Jotun Grunt, essentially a lifegainer in a slow deck like yours.
(Incidentally, if you play Scepter/Brainstorm and activate it once before they Grip it, you got even on cards but lost tempo (4 of your mana vs. 3 of theirs). If you imprinted anything else, you just got 2-for-1'd in addition to the lost tempo.)
Your combo matchup looks fine.
Your Landstill matchup seems solid (though the 4C version should be a lot tougher). However, if you're the ones with the clearly better win conditions, why bring in Grunts? They will almost never win you the game by themselves, and you end up relying on Scepter and Angel anyway. Even if they leave in Humility, they'll definitely board out StP, so why not bring in Mage instead, which is far more annoying for them?
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Or...you could just not read Anusien's articles? I remember PR saying something to the effect of "Thou shalt not visit SCG." It works pretty well.
I started laughing as soon as I saw Pristine Angel, I stopped reading as soon as I saw Starstorm. Scepter isn't a bad control deck, it has the best Goblins match up in the format as far as other control decks are concerned, but that had to be the worst deck list for Scepter I have ever seen. Who bothers to consider Mikokoro, Center of the Sea over Academy Ruins, or like at all?
Why was this printed on Thursday?
Hi, I'm Krosan Grip, and made a lot of things suck.
Seriously, aren't many green players including this card in their SB?
edit...and when I say Green, I mean most Thresh players, most Goblin players, and most Survival players.
When people are playing more artifact destruction than ever, I like playing 8 imprint artifacts and no direct card advantage other than Cunning Wish->FoF.
This seems to have every single weakness that HNoL complained about Landstill having, plus extras as a bonus.
Also, how is Pristine Angel unstoppable against Landstill?
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Well, I didn't read his article, I just scanned down to his deck list and decided that I would never play something like Pristine Angel in Legacy. Furthermore, I'm not interested in the archetype in general (unless something extremely cool comes along), and I will most likely win against a deck like this anyways, so I really just didn't care anymore after seeing his list. No time wasted. I'm happy.
What really made me think (once more) that he doesn't have a clue on what he's talking about was this little gem from the forums:
Seriously, I even consider Krosan Grip in the sideboard of my UG Solidarity board (Solidarity completely destroys Scepter Chant anyways, though).What other decks is Krosan Grip or something good against? Pretty much no one. Are you really going to waste sideboard space against this deck?
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
The deck itself is very interesting, and the choices are unconventional but has some potential. However, as usual, Mr. Binswanger makes some random wrong statements to bring himself down.
Krosan grip, who plays green and not have the card in the SB? I don't care if it is over-hyped or something. It blows up any problem enchantment/artifact in the format and everyone knows it. Or, is green goblins, Thresh, Survival, or other green based Aggro control(which is showing up more than ever due to a certain 2 mana creature) not a deck in Mr. Binswanker's mind?
And reaching RR and 2 colorless looks like a lot of work with that kind of manabase. I know Starstorm is a fun card, but I do not think it belongs here.On the angel, it seems interesting. My personal taste says Morphling, but Angel might prove worthwhile, who knows?
She said, "You're broken."
"So is your face." replied the Tarmogoyf.
On a side note, why didn't you even mention Research/Development? It is extremely good if imprinted on a Scepter and it might be a nice Cunning Wish target... did you just not think about it, or were there other reasons?
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
Pristine Angel and Morphling are the only cards that can fit in that slot that have a decent body (Voice of All is a 2/2, etc). I just like Morphling less; that critter is high maintenance. If the only card you fear is Humility (or I suppose Wrath of God, although that's seeing an all-time low amount of play), you've found the right creature.
Krosan Grip was a non-factor in testing. It shows your mindset that you think the Scepters are the only path to victory. Your Threshold opponent can spend all their resources to find a Grip and destroy your Scepter, only for you to play another one. Here's what I wrote in the SCG forums:
And by the way, Mikokoro is ridiculous, and Ruins is only good if your only path to victory is Scepter. It's nice, but you can't support another colorless slot on either of them, and the Tombs are just better.Once you resolve a single Fact or Fiction or land a Scepter (surprisingly easy, actually), you pretty much win the game. Threshold win once the matchup becomes about card advantage. This is why they often have trouble with the more well-constructed Landstill decks. This deck is pretty good at fighting through pinpoint solutions; they run poor cards like Mental Note or Portent, while you get FoF and Impulse. They're not fast enough to punish you for ramping up to the more expensive spells, and they're cold to Pristine Angel.
Also, Chrome Mox makes it pretty easy to get RR against Goblins. It's amazing what you can do especially when you imprint a Lightning Helix on a Chrome Mox.
By the way, for all of you that absolutely hate me, I don't mind you e-mailing Pete or anyone at SCG to complain. I would also request you e-mail me (works better than PM) at kbinswanger@gmail.com or AIM: Anusien with specific complaints or suggestions. I've talked on AIM to a few people here, and I think it's helped focus me. I think we will find this is more constructive than randomly bashing me on the forums. After all, I want to write articles that everyone likes.
Re: Development. It's alright, but it's a pretty inconsistent 5. I'd rather not run cards that only work on a Scepter.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
If you're imprinting lightning helix on chrome mox instead of playing it against goblins you've pretty much lost anyways.
Last edited by zulander; 08-05-2007 at 07:34 PM.
#mtgfinance follow on twitter: @mtgStaples
Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Right, you might not scoop to a single Krosan Grip, but your comment on SCG indicated that you thought Krosan Grip wasn't a factor, because it doesn't see play, which is a wrong assumption.Krosan Grip was a non-factor in testing. It shows your mindset that you think the Scepters are the only path to victory.
I draws you three cards a turn when imprinted on a scepter or gives you a huge army. I don't think it is weak, especially, since your deck wants to use Isochron Scepter as a supporting tool and an imprinted Research/Development is awesome. Did you actually test it?Development. It's alright, but it's a pretty inconsistent 5. I'd rather not run cards that only work on a Scepter.
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
People,
I think it is important not to attack Mr. Binswanger as a person but to focus on the content and quality of his article.
Remember, just calling him a douche makes you look like one. Logically and systematically analyzing his articles not only keeps the discussion civil, it adds to the debate and useful information on the format and it shows you have higher powers of reason with which you may eventually gain credibility within the community.
Also, at first glance this article looks decent.
At second glance while I think the article was well written the deck has "opportunities for improvement" as stated by others in this format.
Last edited by jazzykat; 08-03-2007 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Removed un needed snicketiness.
Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. This makes 0 sense. Humility trumps...well, everything but man lands, so how is Pristine Angel the "right creature" if you fear Humility? Because it's only
to cast? This just seems like an arbitrary statement trying to justify its inclusion, and it just means nothing. The Angel can get you 2-for-1s, yes, but you have to play spells for that; Morphling only requires U to stop what they're doing, and at no cost of another card. I'd rather play Exalted Angel, which can be played face-down as early as turn 1, and it can essentially nullify your opponent's attack steps. But what do I know?
"Spend all their resources"? By "resources", are you referring to the cantrips they play as the deck's main plan, or just their draw step? They can afford to wait a bit, since your clock is pretty much nonexistent, then destroy the Scepter and resume their plan. Not to mention that they have a Game 1 trump for Scepter in the form of Stifle.
Mikokoro and Ruins have little place, yes, but Ancient Tomb is an issue for me in a deck that can only really "abuse" it turn 1, and it's run as a 2-of.
It's amazing what Wasteland, Port, and Tin-Street do to your mana base regardless. Yes, Mox makes it easier to get RR, but getting the red producing land + the other 2 lands you need for Startstorm isn't as easy, methinks. In addition, imprinting Helix vs. Goblins has Bad Idea written all over it 90% of the time, I would think.
Well, generally speaking, even though it "only works on the Scepter" (which is a falsehood, but whatever), Development is actually a solid card, as it is an additional draw spell and can also allow you to bash face. I've played the card a lot recently in Extended (without Scepter) and it has been great 75% of the time, and average-good the other 25% of the time. That's worth a SB slot to me, but whatever.
What seems to be the common failing among all of these articles (among several other things) is that they all assume they have a good Goblins matchup, when in fact I'd be very surprised if they were even at 50-50. Barring turn 1 Scepter on the play, which even then isn't necessarily a lock because goblins can use port and wasteland to push you off your mana to use the Scepter, you have maybe 1 spell that really matters against goblins, and that costs RRX. Do you honestly think that you'll be able to keep RR2 (the amount required to sweep the board) up against Port, Wasteland, and Hooligan, all the while not being run over by the pressure Goblins can so easily exert? I highly doubt it.
Threshold really only cares about one spell in your entire deck, and guess what, they run 10 counters to prevent you from resolving it. Meanwhile, you run 4 FoW, and that's it, to protect your own spells. Yet again I think you're overestimating your deck's capabilities to simultaneously deal with pressure while digging towards it's inevitability. However, the Threshold matchup looks more winnable than the Goblins one at least, so I'll give you that much.
You looked like you got the Board Control and Combo matchups right, but assuming that combo is not going to be there in force is probably a bad move to make, considering combo has done nothing but rise in popularity in the last few months.
All in all, the article itself isn't terrible, but presenting a decklist that frankly looks badly unrefined and untested, and then claiming you would play it at a major event looks pretty bad. While it was nice that you went out of the way to emphasize that it wasn't the end all be all deck, or even version of this particular archtype, I think you would do better to look into your Goblins matchup more.
I think that I may be betraying myself by defending HNoL, but I believe his statement could be more accurately stated thus;Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot. This makes 0 sense. Humility trumps...well, everything but man lands, so how is Pristine Angel the "right creature" if you fear Humility? Because it's only
"If the only card creature X fears is Humility, creature X must be a very good threat."
Which is theoretically true, except for the CC issue, and dying to sweepers, which Landstill runs in abundance. Which brings me to point B
Statements like "The match-up seems unfavorable, but it feels like it should be favorable" don't do wonders for your all ready thin credibility.
Landstill runs better draw than you, answers to your "unanswerable" kill condition, and ways of dealing with Scepter. I see no reason you would expect to be favored in the match-up.
In fact, I see no reason why this deck is better than Landstill in general. Landstill all ready beats Thresh, Goblins, and fast combo. The only difference is their draw engine is much stronger, and they're not as vulnerable to Needle.
Edit:
Also, all your arguments against how much Disenchant effects wreck you seems to grievously miss the point that, regardless if they single-handedly win the game from doing so, they just 2-for-1ed your kill condition, which is not a desirable position to be in.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Au contraire. I found that getting a Helix on a Scepter against Goblins was a hands-down blowout. The other huge advantage is that you can use things like Chrome Mox and Ancient Tomb to hustle Scepter out, and you can play and activate it off of basic Islands. Goblins beats decks with Ports and Wastes, and when you sit on basics to cast backbreaking spells, you win. Extended players will back up how good Helix was on a stick against Goblins instead of just casting it.
Also, considering that it's play on turn 2, activate on turn 3 instead of play on turn 2, fart on turn 3, the Scepter + Helix plan isn't considerably slower and its benefits outweigh the disadvantages. Mainly, it's great because it works with colorless mana.
Like I posted on the SCG forums, I don't know if Scepter-Chant is a deck for Legacy, but this is close to what I'd run if the deck were indeed, playable. I think my version had F/I over Swords because it's better on the manabase and I ran Teferi for Timmy omg lockouts.
And Mikokoro is a total blowout : ) It surprised me how good it was as a 1-of.
I believe you misunderstood the quote. They were referring to Anusien saying he was imprinting Helix on Chrome Mox and not on a stick. Helix on a Stick I can see, Helix on a Mox vs. goblins seems silly and bad.
Team Albany: What's Legacy?
You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote