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Thread: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

  1. #21
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    It depends on the level you play at, but I would say that slowing down the game a little bit to be more technical would be to everyone's benefit. For example, here's what I usually say when I want to attack--

    "Declare attackers." Wait for opponent to confirm.
    Make my attacks. Wait for opponent to confirm/respond.
    After he's made blocks or responded or whatever, ask "stack damage?" Wait for opponent to confirm.
    After damage is stacked, ask "damage resolves?" Wait for opponent to confirm.

    This whole exchange usually takes about 20 seconds, so while it may seem like a lot to say compared to normal shortcuts, I find it helpful to make sure things are clear and both players think they're in the same step.

  2. #22
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Game - Begins BEGINNING OF COMBAT STEP

    Game - Begins DECLARE ATTACKERS STEP.

    Game - Begins DECLARE BLOCKERS STEP.

    Game - Begins COMBAT DAMAGE STEP.
    Me - I pass priority.
    You - Smother

    Game - Begins END OF COMBAT STEP.

    Game - Begins SECOND MAIN PHASE
    I just wanted to double check a stack occurence with you. Given your example, is where I denoted the right place to play my removal? This will give me the opportunity to have my opponent possibly expend another card on something like Might of Old Krosa or Giant Growth, correct?

    Or as Ridiculous Hat pointed out, let them attack, and do whatever they want then when I play Smother announce "Before combat damage resolves..."

    I think sometimes I'm quick too quick to Smother the thing RIGHT after it's declared an attacker and then I'll get hit with the pump spell on the next turns attack.

    In otherwords, I should just state "I'm not declaring blockers", then priority is passed to them again to play the spells. If they DO, I Smother. IF they DONT I can Smother or let damage resolve. If I do let the damage resolve that's it, they cannot attempt the pump this turn again, right?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    You should pass priority during the Declare Blockers step (i.e. after declaring "No block"). At this point, if they play a pump spell, you can Smother in response and 2-for-1 them. However, if they just pass priority without playing anything, the Combat Damage step will begin and damage will be put on the stack. Because at this point combat damage exists independently, neither pumping nor killing the creature will affect the amount of damage you'll take.
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  4. #24
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Oh ok. So the only way to be SURE to prevent ANY damage would be to kill his creature durring my priority of the declare blockers step. Once I pass it back the damage WILL happen. Unless of course he plays the pump and I can 2-1. Otherwise it's too late to respond with a Smother durring the Combat Damage Phase. I could still kill the creature, but the damage is done.

    Durring the Combat Phase he cannot pump the creature to cause more damage, only to protect his from dying had I blocked with a higher power creature.

    In otherwords the last time you can pump a creature to cause combat damage would be durring the declare blockers step.

    The last time you can pump a creature to save it from lethal combat damage is before the damage reslolves in the Combat Damage step.

    I've probably asked all that before in Jitte thread I made a few weeks back and am starting to sound like a broken record. I just like to state things to be perfectly clear, don't mind me.
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  5. #25
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    1: Beginning of Combat:
    Instants can be played. This is the last chance for the defending player
    to tap creatures in order to prevent them from attacking.

    2: Declare Attackers:
    The active player declares which creatures are attacking, then taps them
    and pays any other costs for them to attack. Then Instants can be played.
    This is the last chance for the attacking player to tap or destroy
    creatures in order to prevent them from blocking.

    3: Declare Blockers
    The defending player declares which creatures are blocking which. Then
    Instants can be played. This is the last time when changing a creature's
    power, or destroying a creature, will change the amount of damage it can deal.

    4: Combat Damage
    Combat Damage from surviving creatures is assigned to the creatures
    they're fighting, in whatever pattern their controllers want. Then Instants
    can be played. This is a good time to play damage-prevention or redirection
    abilities, and it's the last chance to increase a creature's toughness in
    order to let it survive.
    Then the damage will resolve, and lethally damaged creatures will die,
    and players on 0 life will lose the game. Then Instants can be played
    again. At this point it's too late to do anything very useful, except
    killing creatures in order to prevent their "at end of combat" abilities
    from happening.

    Note that if creatures with First Strike are involved, the Combat Damage
    step will actually happen twice- in the first one, only creatures with
    first strike will deal damage. In the second one, only the creatures that
    haven't already dealt their damage will do so.

    5: End of Combat
    Abilities that trigger "at end of combat" will do so, and go onto the
    stack. Then Instants can be played.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Wow, I was actually right!

    Thanks again both of you. I appreciate it.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    I don't want to make a seperate thread showing everyone how stupid I am, so I'll do it right here as it pertains to the Combat Phase and the conversation from two months ago

    Say I'm attacking with two 4/5 Goyfs. My opponent is at 11 life and I hold a Bolt in my hand. I want both of Goyfs damage to go through. He has one 3/3 creature untapped in which to block.

    I declare both Goyfs attacking, no responce. I turn them sideways and attack. He blocks one of the Goyfs with the 3/3. Am I not allowed to Bolt his creature before the block is made??? In other words once he begins to slide his card forward I can no longer respond?

    I was under the impression that I had the opportunity to respond, the reason for waiting to Bolt was to see how he would react to my attack. I played a game the other day and when he went to block I destroyed his creature and said "you take 8", he replied with "No, I take 4" the block sticks.

    Of course I reread this thread and realized I was remiss about this:

    2: Declare Attackers:
    The active player declares which creatures are attacking, then taps them
    and pays any other costs for them to attack. Then Instants can be played.
    This is the last chance for the attacking player to tap or destroy
    creatures in order to prevent them from blocking.
    So I guess my question is, why do this in Combat at all? What is the benefit of destroying his available blockers in the Combat Phase and not before declaring attackers? I swear I've done this in the past. Maybe I was doing it during the Attack Step and everyone I played assumed I was and put their creature in the yard and took their damage?
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  8. #28
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    A simple reason would be an Avatar of Woe with vigilance (for whatever reason). You declare the Avatar as attacker and then tap it to kill a potential blocker before giving your opponent an opportunity to block.

    If you had tapped it earlier, you'd have no chance to attack with it, as it would be tapped.


    The example you told us about is the exact reason to be more precise in combat than most people are: If he had simply asked: "declare block?" before moving his hand, you wouldn't have had any additional information about his intention to block as he could always have declared no blocks.

    If he just blocks it might become a problem as he probably thinks you passed priority even though you didn't. It becomes a judging issue from here, however that could have easily been avoided with being a little bit more technically correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus
    I don't want to make a seperate thread showing everyone how stupid I am...
    There are no stupid questions only stupid answers.

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  9. #29
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Hitting them in the main phase gives away part of your tactics. For example, let's say you hit the creature in main phase, and then wanted to go into combat. They tap both your Goyf's, and your out a turn of combat, and a Bolt that took out a creature that they might just as easily replace next turn, with no damage done to them.

    However, if you waited for combat, you now make the choice harder on their point. They would have to choose whether or not they believe your going to kill the creature before it blocks, or if your even swinging with both. This in a way puts it greatly in your favor, as you can continue to go through your steps until the end of attackers declared step, then pull out the Bolt against them, hitting them for 8, and removing the creature, which was your original plan.

    And yes, as long as you hit the creature before the "declare blockers" step, all 8 damage would go through. The difference of one step (you attacking, him blocking), is negligible to you. All you want to do is hit for 8, make sure he has no tricks prior to getting into combat, and kill his creature. Waiting is the best way to accomplish it.

  10. #30
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Thanks for the replies guys.

    So basically what I questioned before about taking each step seperatly being
    time consuming has now bit me in the ass. The steps became blurred in the above example and I assumed I still had priority to kill his creature before the actual block took place.

    The whole thing threw me off balance and I lost the game. I ended up wasting the Bolt on a 3/3 that would have suffered lethal combat damage from Goyf anyway and only got 4 damage through.

    There are no stupid questions only stupid answers.
    Thanks, but damn did I feel stupid. I've been going through it
    in my head over and over wondering why it the situation never arose
    before. I know I must have attempted to do what I did at some point since I started playing again and no one ever called me on it. I don't even recall anyone ever asking, "declare blockers?", they all just slide their card forward and block.
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Thanks for the replies guys.

    So basically what I questioned before about taking each step seperatly being
    time consuming has now bit me in the ass. The steps became blurred in the above example and I assumed I still had priority to kill his creature before the actual block took place.

    The whole thing threw me off balance and I lost the game. I ended up wasting the Bolt on a 3/3 that would have suffered lethal combat damage from Goyf anyway and only got 4 damage through.



    Thanks, but damn did I feel stupid. I've been going through it
    in my head over and over wondering why it the situation never arose
    before. I know I must have attempted to do what I did at some point since I started playing again and no one ever called me on it. I don't even recall anyone ever asking, "declare blockers?", they all just slide their card forward and block.
    To be fair, all you really had to say was "I never passed priority after declaring my attackers, you jumped the gun". Chances are if it came down to it, whoever was judging would have probably sided with you when you said exactly what you were planning on doing, which is pretty cut and dry.

  12. #32
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    Mathemagics: Onslaught Fetchlands

    Short version: the deck-thinning effect of fetchlands is roughly comparable to paying 4 life to draw an extra card, and such a trade is achieved on average around turn 25. Therefore, the thinning effect alone is not reason enough to run fetches.
    Well, I d'ont agree with this conclusion. I don't agree neither with most of the conclusions of this article. While the study looks sound, the interpretation is highly subjective. Paying 4 life in order to draw a card is often worth, and it's not really dependant on what you are playing but most of all in what you are facing. Against Gob, burn or sligh, it's stupid. Against combo, controle it's clever. Against aggro-control, well, it depends on your deck (will you play control or aggro ?).

    The trade is achieved on average turn 25 OK, but it does not mean that it does not show up before. Expectation is turn 25 but it does not mean that it's useless if your game plan does not lead you to reach the turn 25. A more interesting curve that was missing from the article is the average cost of the additionnal card given the turn where you are, id est the average cost of fetching divided by the average of additionnal card drawn given a turn. It's easy to compute symbolically at turn 2 for instance with 20 lands : 1/(40/58 - 40/59) = 85,55 : ouch.

    According to me, the main reason not to play fetches in monocoloured decks is different though :
    1/ Stifle
    2/ Monocolour decks often play library manipulation : ringleader, messenger, scrying, brainstorm, sensei's divining top => they are the main motivation for playing or not fetchlands
    3/ The life loss is often not justified (article subject)
    4/ Random hate : Moon/needle/extirpate

  13. #33
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    There are two things that I noticed no one addressed in this thread, even if they are pretty old. Since it was necroed, I'll address them now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    Would you still follow the 2-1 ratio and take out one basic land for 2 Fetch?
    No. One fetch land is one land. Yes, it thins your deck by a tiny amount, but it's still one land. It costs your land drop, and puts a land into play untapped. If you have 22 basic lands and you want to replace some with fetches, 16 lands and 6 fetches is functionally the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Versus View Post
    I'd need to bring an index card with all the steps listed to make sure I pass priority at all the right times!
    I know it was just a joke, but in case you didn't know, bringing outside notes to a tournament match is illegal. It's Cheating - Outside Assistance, and results in DQ without prize at any REL level.

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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO View Post
    To be fair, all you really had to say was "I never passed priority after declaring my attackers, you jumped the gun". Chances are if it came down to it, whoever was judging would have probably sided with you when you said exactly what you were planning on doing, which is pretty cut and dry.
    I should have, but it just threw me. I got totally derailed thinking I knew what I was doing and I apparently didn't. I do now. Hopefully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man
    I know it was just a joke, but in case you didn't know, bringing outside notes to a tournament match is illegal. It's Cheating - Outside Assistance, and results in DQ without prize at any REL level.
    You are allowed to take them durring the game though, yes? As long as you aren't delaying that game you can write down whatever you want?


    CAn I just run one more Combat/Stack example by you guys to make absolute sure I do know the correct procedure?

    -I attack with a 4/5 Goyf. My opponent has a 4/5 Goyf in play. We move to declare blockers. He blocks my Goyf with his. I have a Nameless Inversion (+3/-3) I use it on his Goyf to make it a 7/1. Move to Combat damage Step. My Goyf deals 4 damage to his 7/1 (dead) and his Goyf deals 7 damage to my 4/5 (dead).

    -I attack with a 4/5 Goyf. My opponent has a 4/5 Goyf in play. We move to declare blockers. He blocks my Goyf with his. I pass priority. He passes priority. Combat Damage step begins. I announce, "Damage on the Stack..." and play Nameless Inversion. His Goyf becomes a 7/1. My Goyf deals 4 damage to his 7/1 (dead), but his Goyf only deals 4 to my 4/5 as damage was already determined in the declare blockers step and power levels changing now will NOT effect damage dealt. Result my Goyf lives.

    Would this be a good example of why doing the very same thing can yeild different results or am I totally wrong again?
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  15. #35
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    You're correct in both instances. One combat damage is stacked, any power/toughness changes will not influence the damage that's on the stack and waiting to be dealt after it resolves.

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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaynel View Post
    You're correct in both instances. One combat damage is stacked, any power/toughness changes will not influence the damage that's on the stack and waiting to be dealt after it resolves.
    Well, wait. If toughness still cannot be affected then both Goyfs would trade?
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    This is similar to doing the following:

    You have an Aquamoeba in play, and your opponent has a 2/2 in play. You attack, he declares his 2/2 to block.

    You: Before Damage, I discard CardX to switch Aquamoeba's p/t.
    Him: OK.
    You: With damage on the stack, I discard CardZ to switch Aquamoeba's p/t.
    Him: OK.

    Result - Aquamoeba deals 3 damage, recieves 2 damage, and survives the attack.

  18. #38
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Ah, okay. So to break that down even further:

    Aquamoeba is a 1/3 attacker. Your opponent blocks. Declare Blockers step begins (the last time when changing a creature's power will change the amount of damage it can deal.) you discard a card to make it a 3/1.

    Damage Step begins (the last chance to increase a creature's toughness in order to let it survive.) With damage on the stack you discard a card to switch P/T again making Aquamoeba a 1/3. He deals his 3 damage determined in the Declare Blockers step to the 2/2, receives his 2 damage and survives.

    I think I finally get it. The thing I wanted to be absolute about is with say Nameless Inversion. I'm not increasing toughness to save MY creature, but reducing toughness to kill his. That's still a legal play?
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  19. #39
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Your two scenarios with the Tarmogoyfs above are both correct.

    I also just wanted to note to you that damage is determined at the beginning of the Combat Damage step in the Combat Phase. As soon as both players pass priority successively in the end of the Declare Blockers step, you proceed straight to the Combat Damage step and Combat Damage is assigned and put on the stack. Then players can play spells and abilities. So with the both 4/5 Goyfs dealing 4 damage on the stack, you Inversion his and make it a 7/2. As long as he passes priority to you with no responses and then you pass also, the Inversion will resolve, priorities get passed again, then the Combat Damage will resolve resulting in 4 damage to your 4/5 Goyf, and 4 damage to his 7/2 Goyf. This would cause his Goyf to go to the graveyard as a state-based effect (having lethal damage on it) the next time a player would get priority (which would be right after the Combat Damage on the stack is finished resolving).

    That's pretty much the play-by-play of what happens
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    Re: Fetch lands in mono-colored decks?

    Cool, thanks TrialByFire.

    I didn't mean to doubt your word Jaynel, but the part of your reply I put in bold confused me. Just wanted to make double sure before I attempted it.

    Thanks again to everyone for taking the time to clear that up for me.
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