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Thread: [DTB] Death and Taxes

  1. #9061

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Marungo

    That was a great writeup. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

    SoWaP is something that comes in against any StP deck (Stoneblade, D&T, Maverick), control decks (Miracles, Czech Pile), Loam/Punishing Fire decks (Lands, 4c Loam), Burn, and most cantrip-based combo decks (e.g. Sneak and Show). It's got other applications, but those are some of the big ones.

    Going down one piece of graveyard hate is reasonable. I don't know if that's smart for your location though, seeing as you're in a sea of Lands.

    I can understand not liking Gideon. In my initial testing after the card came out, I was really not impressed. In the games where you are behind on board, sometimes he just makes a token, the token eats a removal spell, and then they attack Gideon and he dies. Those games don't feel good, but in those sorts of situations, what is getting you out of it anyway? Yet, there are tons of other games where landing a Gideon on an empty board or a relatively even board just completely warps the game around him. He threatens a huge amount of damage while serving lots of different functions: Dread of Night counter, chump blocker producer, grinding through opposing removal, immediate emblem for "haste" damage... It's a very versatile card, and it's that versatility that has given him semi-permanent slots in my deck.

    If you aren't liking Gideon, maybe try out Elspeth? I've been meaning to revisit her in these Crusader-heavy lists, but haven't gotten around to it. In the past, jumping Crusaders over TNN felt pretty good, but I don't know how the card will fare right now.

  2. #9062

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Yes Marungo, thank you very much for the detailed tournament report. Had a lot of fun reading it, and it also came up with a bunch of interesting questions on DnT in the actual metagame.

    I actually have had a few issues playing the Maverick matchup as well. I am not experimented in the matchup, and it seems like it's getting some serious presence again. If some of you have tips on sideboarding and general handling of the matchup, it would be greatly appreciated.

    I myself tend to sideboard like this:

    + 2 Council Judgements
    + 2 Path to Exile
    + 2 RiP
    - 2 Sanctum Prelate | maybe he's good, but I only want him on 1, and the big deal is getting rid of Mom's in early game. So I probably prefer 6 spot removals, but it's discussable.
    - 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben | I don't know if this is a good choice, but I always feel like if she's not there exactly on turn 2, she tends to tax my own spells a little bit too much.

    I am on a Wb version, splashing for 1 Orzhov Pontiff (and 1 in side) and 1 dark Confidant main. Maybe this splash makes this matchup much worse, since I don't play Serra's and only 1 Mirran.

    I considered not siding in Path to Exile, keeping 1 Sanctum and boarding in the 2nd Prelate, to give me a stronger grip starting turn 3, with Prelate on 1 and Pontiff's taking care of my opponent's Mom. It seems more like a DeathandTaxing strategy, but relies on Vial and Recruiter to be optimal. And the problem then is handling the Knights, but with RiP, CJ's, revokers and equipment, it seems doable.


    Any comments and tips are more than welcome

  3. #9063

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I have always felt that gideon wasn't needed in the sb. The midrange match ups i've never found to difficult. Catcacslym feels really good right now. I usally play it with magus of the moon. 4c and other midrange decks will fetch all their basics vs us. I blow the basics and walkers up with catca and than tutor for the magus and fuck them. Atm i would just run double catca's in the sb or maybe an elspeth. I really like the idea of elspeth atm, due to a 4 mirran list i am running. If you want to sure up your midrange match ups. Giest of saint tariff with Karakas. I've done really stupid but fun things, such as run 2 leovold's in the sb. Turns out no fair deck can beat dnt when u have leovold+ karakas/mom.

  4. #9064

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Just to preemptively stop some PMs... Due to a hardware issue on my provider's end, my website is likely to be down for a few days.

  5. #9065

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Just to preemptively stop some PMs... Due to a hardware issue on my provider's end, my website is likely to be down for a few days.
    Phew, I was worried.

  6. #9066

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Went 3-0-1 at my lgs Thursday night with a pretty stock list. (1 cavern 1 canopy 3 crusader 0 avenger). Beat burn twice (no real contest once skull or jitte was online) followed by a slug fest with 4c Pile. Crusader was a House game 1 and Jace drew 10+ cards for him game 2. Game 3 he couldnít answer Thalia and I jammed Gideon while he was tapped out so no force (not sure if he even left forces in). Gideon was backbreaking. Drew with lands 1-1-1 although he probably wins game 3 if we donít run out of time. He had turn 1 vortex with pf backup so I couldnít safely revoker or prelate. It was rough.

    So far Iíve been pretty lucky against our local Pile player. Not sure if this is a favorable matchup pre or post board. Aside from edicts I donít think thereís an answer for a resolved crusader but I felt like it was still a technical matchup. What do you guys bring in against Pile? Also I Sont know how we beat lands game 1. I played the deck a while back but took a break for a while to play other things so Iím not super familiar with the 3 drop heavy builds right now. Is cataclysm worth a SB slot or 2 still?

  7. #9067

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I'm wondering why people are still running Sanctum Prelate? I've always adjusted my evaluation of the card to be higher than my experiences because the overall community seems to like it, but I recently got around to making an account here so I'd figure I'd ask why. The way I see it, prelate comes down too late to be relevant against most combo decks, and most fair decks have removal at a variety of CMC, so it is usually just removed without making an impact. I like it in a pretty small set of matchups: pfire decks to shut off pfire, omnitell because d&t lock pieces don't line up very well vs omniscience, and grixis delver, but it's ineffective in combat, prone to daze, and they usually have 2+ cmc removal post board.

    I'm personally running 0 main and 1 side, and even then find myself over-siding it and drawing it in situations where it's ineffective. Last time I saw Bahra streaming he didn't have a prelate either, not even in the sideboard, because he found it to be only effective against lands. Do other people actively like prelate? Or is it mostly being included out of momentum?

  8. #9068

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Prelate is a hell of card against lands, grixis delver, ur delver, burn, s & t, ant, aggroloam, miracles and tezzerator and is ok vs aluren and uw/uwr blade.
    I play 1 maindeck and 1 in side, and I' m feel naked without her :-)

  9. #9069

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    came second at a local today. I went into today making a meta call i would be playing alot of fair decks. I did i only played combo once
    the match ups were

    miracles 2-1
    bug delver 2-1
    esper mentor 1-2 (i fucked up i threw this match making a critical mistake game 2 while up a game)
    2-1 imperial taxes
    shardless bug.

    Lands: (23)
    2 Cavern of Souls
    1 Horizon Canopy
    3 Karakas
    9 Plains
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland

    Creatures: (26)
    4 Flickerwisp
    3 Mirran Crusader
    4 Mother of Runes
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Serra Avenger
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    Non-Creature Spells: (11)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Sword of war and peace
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawaís Jitte

    Sideboard: (15)
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Councilís Judgment
    2 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Sword of light and shadow
    1 Batterskull
    1 Mirran crusader
    3 Path to Exile
    2 Rest in Peace

    Miracles. I felt bad war and peace is just brutal in this match. The agressive as worth it. it was a werid game 3. I just killed everything they played and won via playing superior control.

    round 2 bug delver.

    This match ups is just super easy i have 3 paths and 2 council's judgment in the sb. My meta has alot of delver so i went with 3 paths in the sb, just to crush them. Game 1 i just played mirran beats u. Game 2 i lost to a tomb stalker, i drew 0 removal even though i had 9. Game 3 i basically drew an autp win. Vial double stonefoge double plow and mom. It was the easiest game of the day

    round 3.

    War and peace and a agressive draw crushed the mentor player. Thalia and mirran's are just hard to beat. Game 2 i had a chance to equip light and shadow to thalia. But instead i cj'd the liliana of the last hope. Thinking it could kill the thalia. Forgetting not only would thalia have pro black. It would of been a 4/3. If i had equipted the solas. He had no way to beat it.

    round 4 Imperial taxes.

    My opponents first time playing dnt. I lost game 1 to a mul to 4. Game 2 and 3 my superior knowledge of the match up, and frankley the amount of better cards i had in the match up just crushed him.

    round 5 -Id

    Finals.

    storm 2-0

    War and peace actually crushed the storm player both games. Game 1 it just was too fast of a clock with life gain for him to deal with. He had a slow hand i got hate bears into play. Game 2 was interesting. It went for about 20 turns o was holding up double vial with recruiters. Threating to recruit for ethersworn and vial it in. To blow out his combo. He had removal in hand but enough. At the end of turn at a late point in the game i recruitered for stoneforge. put it into play got a war and peace. sowp is pretty good when both players have filled hands.

    Dragon stompy. 2-0

    This wasn't really a match game 1 they mulled to 5 with nothing to do. Game 2 at one point they had 0 permnants in play and 0 cards in hand. It was funny the situation was he had 2 chrome mox, 1 bottled city, and a city. I cj'd the bottle to get rid of his hand permantely. revoked his chrome mox and wastelanded his city.

    finals vs 4c control.

    My deck was designed to crush this match up and i was pretty happy with how it preformed it crushed him game 1. Game 2 and 3 i just lost to dnt being dnt. Mulled to 5 both games. The first game i drew all 3 drops and no 3rd land. Including all 3 swords and the batterskull. I knew this was a weakness of playing eqiupment heavily builds but i thought the risk was worth the reward. Game 3 was a very long game but he drew a play set of baleful strix at one point.

  10. #9070

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldrazi Grandfather View Post
    Prelate is a hell of card against lands, grixis delver, ur delver, burn, s & t, ant, aggroloam, miracles and tezzerator and is ok vs aluren and uw/uwr blade.
    I play 1 maindeck and 1 in side, and I' m feel naked without her :-)
    This, but also that she is absolutely not too slow. Turn 2 Thalia makes her better, and even if you have to Recruiter for her, she's still really good turn 4. Maybe you are using your resources differently?

    What combo, specifically, are you thinking she is too slow to be of use for?

    Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

  11. #9071

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldrazi Grandfather View Post
    Prelate is a hell of card against lands, grixis delver, ur delver, burn, s & t, ant, aggroloam, miracles and tezzerator and is ok vs aluren and uw/uwr blade.
    I don't think the card matters very much vs ant. Game 1 is decided by whether you can land a t2 hatebear or not before they kill you. Post-board matches are usually a little slower and you can use prelate to "protect" a 2 mana hatebear, but that just goes to show that I'd rather have any 2 mana hate piece. Also, what do you try to shut off? Massacre? Chain of vapor / fatal push / dread of night? Echoing truth / abrupt decay / pyroclasm? It's impossible to say unless you already know your opponent, so it's likely you just play a vanilla 2/2.

    Burn has a majority of its spells at CMC 1, but then you don't get to shut off equipment removal and searing effects, which are the most impactful spells. Plus it's not very good when you're being beaten down by creatures. So I'd rather have it in my deck than not vs burn, but it has a high fail rate.

    UW snapcaster decks generally aren't impacted much by prelate from my perspective in games. Probably because their deck allows them to play well and gain small edges to be prepared for prelate when it comes. There are ways for us to try to get it in at optimal times, but we're generally playing from behind in these matchups so the best line usually ends up being "slam prelate and pray". It doesn't present a clock and doesn't keep them off their "turn the corner" cards. I still board it in vs miracles because sometimes it's nice to have vs terminus, but it's not a card I would miss having if it was out of my 75 entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    What combo, specifically, are you thinking she is too slow to be of use for?
    ANT/TES and reanimator mainly. It's good vs s&t, but unless they're specifically on omnitell, I don't really care much about having prelate because the rest of the deck lines up so well anyway. On the flipside, are there combo decks that see play it is actually useful against?

    So a lot of this post is essentially me saying that prelate is generically ok vs a lot of decks, but only good vs a small number of decks. Is that more in line with what other people experience? I used this logic to play prelate in the main for a while, but just kept finding that "generically ok" was not good enough for prelate.

  12. #9072

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    If prelate is too slow for ant/tes you're going to lose anyway. You need to drop a turn 2 hatebear vs storm or you're basically. Dead game 1 curving out turn 2 hate into turn 3 prelate will make them lose on the spot. Most show and tell decks are on the omniscience package and you're going to want prelate vs those builds. I've had some games vs storm were i just attacked there mana base game and turn 4 vial'd in prelate. It won although i don't reccomand attacking there mana base as a solid apporach. I just happen to have no idea what i was playing and had vial port wasteland hand on the play. Reanimator prelate is useless anyway. But thats not a hard match up to win.

    prelate is good in nearly all match ups.

  13. #9073

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Prelate is super-necessary for the Loam/Punishing Fire matchups, and does wonders as a support card in various combo matchups. Otherwise, it's a decisively average card. Sometimes you draw it naturally and just "get" your opponent when they are on a fair deck like Delver, but it's not always going to feel like that. These days decks like Czech Pile run a varied removal suite over multiple CMCs, so it's not like you can lock them out with it. That being said, it is well-worth a slot in the 75.

  14. #9074

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Prelate is super-necessary for the Loam/Punishing Fire matchups, and does wonders as a support card in various combo matchups. Otherwise, it's a decisively average card. Sometimes you draw it naturally and just "get" your opponent when they are on a fair deck like Delver, but it's not always going to feel like that. These days decks like Czech Pile run a varied removal suite over multiple CMCs, so it's not like you can lock them out with it. That being said, it is well-worth a slot in the 75.
    I would add that even in the games against Delver when you drop a Prelate on 1, sometimes itís turn 3 and theyíre clocking you enough that it does nothing. Iíve had more games than Iíd like to admit when Prelate was just a Gurmag Angler roadblock. Iím running the 1/1 split, how are people feeling about that now?

  15. #9075
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Prelate is super-necessary for the Loam/Punishing Fire matchups, and does wonders as a support card in various combo matchups. Otherwise, it's a decisively average card. Sometimes you draw it naturally and just "get" your opponent when they are on a fair deck like Delver, but it's not always going to feel like that. These days decks like Czech Pile run a varied removal suite over multiple CMCs, so it's not like you can lock them out with it. That being said, it is well-worth a slot in the 75.
    Quality Lands players are maindecking Barbarian Ring now, and I don't think we can win the long game vs them without RiP. They recognize that if they have Loam, their next Gamble target is Barbarian Ring (not Punishing Fire) and Loam + Ring is much more devastating to us than Loam + PFire anyway. So while I agree that Prelate is useful, it's really not enough to win a long game 1, and so I'm not sure it's good enough for the maindeck anymore. I guess it's still probably a lock against the Aggro Loam deck that doesn't have room for Barbarian Ring. That doesn't seem like it is worth a maindeck slot.

    Are you actually beating Lands game 1 with eventually-draw-Recruiter -> fetch Prelate -> ??? You can't even protect Prelate with Vial+Flickerwisp, because they activate Ring, you save the Prelate with Flickerwisp, and then their Loam is turned back on, so they get the ring back and do this forever until you are out of things to do. It feels to me like we have to embrace the fact that our lock pieces aren't that relevant in the truly long game of this matchup, which is another reason the 4x Mirran Crusader build is a good place to go.

  16. #9076
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes



    Some quality footage for you to all enjoy (I'm not biased at all), the finals of one of our local sanctioned events: DnT vs Pile.

    I'm curious as to what you all think about the boarding plan/deck plan of having 5 equipment postboard against pile for this matchup.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I was actually kinda thinking the opposite, and wondering what it would be like to play in the "Megadeus and Stevestamops Presents: The Nedleeds Memorial Tournament" (banlist: just the regular legacy one, except survival is legal and all blue cards are not).

  17. #9077
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham View Post
    Are you actually beating Lands game 1 with eventually-draw-Recruiter -> fetch Prelate -> ??? You can't even protect Prelate with Vial+Flickerwisp, because they activate Ring, you save the Prelate with Flickerwisp, and then their Loam is turned back on, so they get the ring back and do this forever until you are out of things to do. It feels to me like we have to embrace the fact that our lock pieces aren't that relevant in the truly long game of this matchup, which is another reason the 4x Mirran Crusader build is a good place to go.
    'They might have answers' is not a good reason to drop a card that wins on the spot if they don't have answers - and they often don't. Their one-of Barbarian Ring both requires them to have found it in time + to already have or be close to Threshold, since they aren't Loaming anymore when Prelate's in play. SoFi can also protect Prelate g1 for the hard-lock. In practice I have not found their Barbarian Ring to be very threatening - finding it and getting it online requires dedicating a lot of resources to that plan, and if you have SoFi or RiP (or, ideally, Magus of the Moon) it doesn't even matter.

    Mirran Crusader also dies to Barbarian Ring (and Punishing Fire) and provides no ETB or taxing effect along the way. If Lands' entire game plan is forced to be 'I need to find a way to kill Prelate' you have a million turns to work with. If they just have to kill a thing that dies to all their removal and doesn't disrupt their game at all, you don't.

  18. #9078

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisCunningham View Post
    Quality Lands players are maindecking Barbarian Ring now, and I don't think we can win the long game vs them without RiP. They recognize that if they have Loam, their next Gamble target is Barbarian Ring (not Punishing Fire) and Loam + Ring is much more devastating to us than Loam + PFire anyway. So while I agree that Prelate is useful, it's really not enough to win a long game 1, and so I'm not sure it's good enough for the maindeck anymore. I guess it's still probably a lock against the Aggro Loam deck that doesn't have room for Barbarian Ring. That doesn't seem like it is worth a maindeck slot.
    Even with RiP we lose the long game against lands, because they have more removal for it than we have RiP's to bring in and are more likely to find their answers than we are to find RiP. The match-up still revolves around beating them to death as fast as possible while disrupting them with relevant hatebears and mana denial. Prelate is one of the most important hatebears for this as it shuts down two of their main (and the most powerful) engines. They can solve it with ring, but that requires them to find ring, which slows down their other plans and is a serious investment of mana and land drops. They don't always have Exploration or Manabond and, if they do, it's even less likely that they have that as well as loam AND a quick way to find ring and get it safely in hand. If they warp their gameplan towards ring, that's another high impact land they're not trying to find against us, like Tabernacle, Maze or the combo. They do have plenty of outs to our answers to Marit Lage other than vial on 3 + wisp (and plow, but a resolved plow also makes it almost impossible for us to still win through that amount of life gain).

    I think any standard or semi-standard d&t list should run 2 prelates in the 75, probably with the 1-1 split being the best. The card is just that damn good in way too many match-ups. Even if they have answers to it, they need to have them at hand and/or may be forced to use them less efficiently than they might want, like a Jace bounce or a single shot Explosives. It's not just loam/fire, the card is also very important against miracles, burn, enchantress, elves, show and tell, dragon stompy... It's worth noting that in most match-ups, it's actually harder for the opponent to kill than mirran crusader.

    Are you actually beating Lands game 1 with eventually-draw-Recruiter -> fetch Prelate -> ??? You can't even protect Prelate with Vial+Flickerwisp, because they activate Ring, you save the Prelate with Flickerwisp, and then their Loam is turned back on, so they get the ring back and do this forever until you are out of things to do. It feels to me like we have to embrace the fact that our lock pieces aren't that relevant in the truly long game of this matchup, which is another reason the 4x Mirran Crusader build is a good place to go.
    It ups the clock, but makes the risk much higher that they can play a non-interactive game and just combo or mana denial-win. Mirran Crusader is about as good a card in the lands match-up as it is in the miracles match-up. Which is to say, pretty meh.

  19. #9079

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @iatee
    Are you even running Sanctum Prelate in your Wr build? I thought your out to Lands was just Magus.

  20. #9080

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    @iatee
    Are you even running Sanctum Prelate in your Wr build? I thought your out to Lands was just Magus.
    He was at EE. If his list hasnít changed heís been running one maindeck for a while.

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