I meant swords, just copy pasted the modern list and edited the creatures and equipments :p, fixed!Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
There is a user on mtgsalvation that has been playing with a lack splash. It's mostly for dark confidant, thoughtseize and some hate out of the board like orzhov pontiff. He had a couple decent appearances in top 8 if you look it up on mtgtop8
@Iatee
Yeah, I need to write up some of the bad matchups like Jund, Elves, Food Chain, or Belcher so that it doesn't look like D&T has a positive matchup to even matchup versus every deck in Legacy. I'm also aware that my experience level biases me a certain amount when evaluating matchups, which is why I've tried to give a text summary of my thoughts rather than just some simple numbers and percentages.
@tarmogoat
My site has a section for each one of the splashes, written by pilots that specialize in that color. Feel free to check it out if you need some ideas.
You forgot Infect...
Really liking the new site by the way Phillip. Keep up the good work!
(repost of a comment from MTGS)
Alrighty, I'm starting to do some serious testing again. I have two thoughts thus far:
1. THC seems really good. It pretty easily will warp a game in your favor, especially when both of the taxing effects are relevant. I'm not sure the correct way to adjust the rest of the deck to supplement the plan, but I'm pretty such THC is here to stay. I'm currently testing a build without Serra Avengers, but I have mixed feelings about that.
2. I don't think the Eldrazi matchup is necessarily favorable anymore [for mono-white]. In the early days of the deck, the main was often loaded with Spirit Guides/Lotus Petal, Thorns, and Trinisphere. That meant that many of the matches played out like MUD, and we were quite favored as their hands filled up with clunky cards that had relatively low impact. These days, those same slots now tend to be filled with Warping Wail, Dismember, an additional Umezawa's Jitte, and Phyrexian Metamorph or Endbringer. All of those changes are bad news for us. I went 2-7 in preboard games and 2-7 in post board games today. I frequently found myself on my back foot, and I never got to bounce a Batterskull in the 18 games I played; when I first started testing this matchup, recurring Batterskull was the route to stabilizing and victory. Now I don't feel like we have time for that to necessarily happen. Thoughts?
@Svyelunite
Yeah, I think Infect should be next. That matchup is tricky, and every little edge matters.
Crackdown is interesting, never seen that card before. I'll definetly try it. I've been using a secret tech Silent Artiber as a 1-of silverbullet in sideboard against Eldrazi and Young Pyromancer decks.
Yeah, Thalia 2.0 is SO GOOD. I can't even comment how much work this lady has been doing. I've been tracking my matchups against competitive decks in MWS and Cockatrice for some weeks, so far this is it:
W-L-D
UWr Miracles: 6-3-1
Grixis Tempo: 11-1-0
Reanimator: 1-4-0
BUG Delver: 3-0-0
Shardless BUG: 5-1-0
Sneak and Show: 5-0-0
GWb Maverick: 1-0-0
Aggro Loam: 2-2-0
Canadian Threshold: 2-0-0
Eldrazi Stompy: 3-4-0
List:
Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
2 Plateau
Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirran Crusader
Spells [12]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard [15]
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgement
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Silent Arbiter -> Crackdown
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Wear//Tear
Don't give up on Magus of the Moon, dudes. He's boss.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Anybody here gonna hit up Baltimore this Sunday?
I'm going to this thing near Philly instead: https://www.facebook.com/events/1748495045437257/
Prob gonna run a main that looks similar to Vandalize's (having never played THC) + more of a tutorboard.
How would you guys board vs grixis pyromancer? Do you bring in rip for drs/ angler?
I used to board out a couple of revokers, but with the lastest trend of 1-2 jitte in their board i think its risky.
How about path/ cj?
Ive recently swapped to a 1 off absolute law sb, do you think its worth it? Considering lightning/ forked bolt and lavamancers tend to be their only removal, and that way you can also stop a yp token to get counters from jitte by Jumpblocking
Also, what would you board out?
@c2232
I will definitely be there barring some unforeseen circumstance
@medea
This is a serious question, you weren't always facing lists that were configured that way? I was from pretty early on, hence why I thought the matchup was not nearly as good as everyone else did. I still think it favors us though if we have the right configuration of cards, particularly sideboard with some path to exiles. Overall it's gonna be a tough and close matchup but I'd say it's like 55-45 in our favor
He lists the cards he used to face, and the cards he faces more now, so I guess the answer is no, it hasn't always been the same from his PoV. In a larger context, there have been a few different Eldrazi strategies in Legacy, so as things shake out and some designs see more consistent success, I'm not surprised to see this relatively new archetype evolve and change.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
I was not. The majority of the testing I did was for the couple of big events immediately around the release of the new wave of Eldrazi. In some cases, I was testing with Eldrazi decks that I or the others locals had put together The lists weren't really standardized or optimal then. Gerry's list from Philly, for example, had 4 Thorn, 4 Chalice, and two Mox Diamond; that "dead weight" often meant I was winning an absurd percentage of game one scenarios. The newer lists are more refined and have better sideboards. I took about 3 weeks off from playing Magic while I was teaching an intensive Latin course, and I came back only to get wrecked by what I thought was a very positive matchup.
I'm something like 7-2 in matches against Eldrazi in sanctioned play, but my testing yesterday was nearly opposite of that. It just caught me off guard, and I think I need to reevaluate the matchup a bit in my primer now that the deck has evolved a bit.
Eldrazi's hard to test against because the deck has a certain % of insane hands that will beat pretty much anything and a certain % of pretty fragile hands that lose to a Wasteland or SfM. You need to account for those things + the number of removal spells main, which can really vary. The difference between 'beating Eldrazi' and 'not beating Eldrazi' often comes down to opening hands and topdecks on both sides.
There may be a new deck in Legacy to deal with, if Paul Lynch and some of his grinders here in Baltimore work it out: UW Spirits and Taxes. It is using a lot of the new Spirits from the last couple sets, especially with Spell Queller, Mausoleum Wanderer, and Rattlechains plus Drogskoll Captain and Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, combined with Mom, Stoneforge Mystic, Phyrexian Revoker, Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial, 3-4 Cavern of Souls, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Force of Will, and some other things I have not seen.
If they can make it work, it is going to be a very difficult deck to deal with, with a lot of flyers and powerful effects. I'm not sure how well we would match-up against that...
As for my build, I'm excited by THC and I am going to be going down to 4 flyers in order to accommodate her. My only question is, 2 or 3? I currently have 2/2/1 THC/Mirran Crusader/Brimaz, but I think I want a 3rd. Does Brimaz go?
Sadly, I have not gotten nearly enough play time in because pauper has overshadowed Legacy here recently.
I don't think the Spirit tribe will work out to be stronger than what D&T has in store.
Speaking of new toys, has anyone tried the practical applicability of Hanweir Garrison in Imperial yet? I really like the prospect of turning one body into three (while I'm pretty certain that that Meld thingie can be safely ignored).
Spirit tribal seems like something in-between DnT and Merfolk. Slower clock than Merfolk, lower taxes than DnT. It is probably a playable legacy deck that can win some games, but I'm not sure if it would be better than Merfolk in general, at least with the Spirits we have right now.
I haven't tried Garrison yet. I think my problem with it is that it's hard to imagine situations where I'd want it but Pia/Kiran wouldn't just be better. It's a little easier to maindeck I guess.
The most attractive property of Garrison relative to Pia nad Kiran is its casting cost. Ticking up Vial to four is a hard decision to make; Garrison just fits the Imperial curve so well... I guess I'll just test it when the opportunity next arises.
I see what you're saying but if P&K didn't exist, I wouldn't consider playing Garrison at all.
P&K = Karakas-able army in a can (with an army that flies), that also provides reach and can clear the ground.
Garrison = A shitty Hero of Bladehold.
So, Thalia has gone heretic and I just had to take her for a spin. A word before I begin. Nobody last night, including me, could seem to get the words "Heretic Cathar" or even "Guardian of Thraben" out of our mouths. This is a real issue - a silly one - but it is something. Cabal Therapy required me to clarify with which one. I heard "little Thalia" and "old Thalia" referring to TGT, for example.
This was at Cool Stuff Games in Hollywood, Florida. The place is very big and gets packed on Friday nights. I think we had 24 players.
I could not get hold of 2 Fiend Hunter. The Oblivion Ring and the Cataclysm are the replacements. Eldrazi is peculiarly under-represented in South Florida. I have faced it exactly once in paper cards. But the Fiend Hunters are for that and Sneak/Show, which a friend told me is popular at Cool Stuff.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire//Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
sideboard
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
Rd1 versus Miguel
A moment earlier I had seen him borrow the deck, so I knew he was on Enchantress. Over the years, I have had pretty good success against that deck, so I generally knew how to fight it. But it had been a few years. I admitted to Miguel that I did not even know what his wincon was.
-g1 I scooped to Solitary Confinement. This may have been a mistake, but I do not think so. He had Sterling Grove, so I had to topdeck two wisps before he got to his kill. And of course I did not know what that was or how to prevent it. I made a bad guess on ticking my Vial to 3. At game's end I was holding a fist full of twos, and of course I never drew a single three. This was important because I got an attack in past Elephant Grass, but it was not for lethal.
-g2 He got himself hiding behind Elephant Grass again while I seriously Ported him. Little Thalia and Flickerwisp made quick work of him. I hit Argothian Enchantress with Council's Judgment and he put up solitary again. But I had another wisp for that and swung for lethal. A note on this. On his upkeeps I was always porting lands. Unlike Divining Top, you want to let Elephant Grass trigger and resolve (and get paid) before porting or he can use the land for the grass. This issue came up.
g3, poor Miguel mulled to three and...well...you know how that goes.
1-0
No Heretic Cathar sightings.
Rd2 versus Bobby
-g1 I went first with just Plains. I had seen Force of Will in his graveyard from the previous round. But he played t1 Divining Top leaving no doubt it was Miracles. I was holding Revoker, but my turn 2 play was TGT because I had two of her in my hand. Resolved. He durdled. Revoker on my next turn. He shuffled away his Top, but then drew a plow for the Revoker. Thalia hit him a few times and was joined by Mangara. He had gotten a Monastery Mentor, but was having trouble feeding it (yes, this is what D+T does). He cast Jace, the Mind Sculptor and for three straight turns he unsummoned Mangara <---still love that card for its effect on opponents. I sent the Mentor famring, but then he blind topdecked Terminus. I saved Mangara with Karakas and deployed the other Thalia and Mystic on the reload. We carried on in this fashion for a bit longer, with Miracles never really getting off the ground. He scooped when I cast Mangara again, but we went very long.
-g2 was very strange. Little happened until we were both at 8 lands. I topdecked Batterkull and he had no immediate answer. At nine lands he Brainstorms on his turn and I kinda figured something was amiss just because it was Miracles. Sure enough, at my eot he Brainstorms again. OK, he had three untapped fetchlands here and I had three Wastelands. He otherwise had all basics. I wasted a fetch with Brainstorm on the stack. He let it happen. Another. Same. Third one. Again he refused to fetch. Got this? Bobby is good and he knows that he can fetch with the miracle trigger on the stack. But this left him with four mana and he made two angel tokens instead of five. We traded blows for awhile, getting essentially nowhere. I topdecked the single Cataclysm though. Heh. Jace comes down and kills the token. I return Batterskull to hand. On my turn I recast it and have just enough mana to Cataclysm. I plowed the remaining angel and was porting his land while I finished the job with the big battering ram.
2-0
Still no big Thalia. Strange. BTW, I got kinda lucky on the big miracle trigger. I was not sure what he was up to. I just did not want his Brainstorm to be profitable.
Rd3 versus Mike
-g1 Mike is on BUG and he lays down Ancestral Vision on turn 1 and 2 with plenty of lands. You can guess how this went. I did some stuff, but I did not see any real disruption, and he had good answers. Mike played well and I was never really in this game.
-g2 Mike started with Vision again, but this one went better. I started strong and was able to set up well and saw several StP for his threats. Mike had brought in eleven sb cards against me though. I saw Toxic Deluge twice, Pithing Needle and Null Rod in just the first few turns. This was a lot and I could not dig out. The game ended with him Fatesealing me with Jace and using Sylvan Library on himself. I had gotten him down in life, but he was certainly in control in the end.
I may have paid here for not having a sideboard for this matchup.
2-1
I actually cast Thalia, Heretic Cathar against Mike, but he met it immediately with Liliana of the Veil, and she was my only creature.
Rd4 versus Kevin
-g1 He was definitely on Grixis. Turn 1 he casts Delver of Secrets. I did...something. Turn 2, it does not flip, but attacks and he casts two more. Yeah. Turn 3 Brainstorm on upkeep, I take 9. I go to StP one, he Forces. I had to tap Horizon Canopy for this. That brings me to nine. I pass the turn and... As Kevin put it, sometimes Delver just happens.
-g2 He Forces Vial. My turn 2 is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to his Deathrite Shaman. He cast Young Pyromancer on his turn, but was having trouble feeding it (yes, this is what D+T does). I finally get Thalia, Heretic Cathar and the game is on. After a couple turns of my straight jacket, he bolts little Thalia. I don't know if that was correct, given his options of the two of them. Because Big Thalia controlled the game from then on and I won handily.
-g3 I went to six. He t1 Therapies me blind and nabs 2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. My turn 1 Mother of Runes gets Dazed. Yeah. I had like a Flickerwisp, a Mystic, and a land in my hand at the end of my first turn and Plains on the field. On turn 3 landed Big Thalia and I convincingly blew him out despite his monstrous head start. He already had threats on the battlefield and he landed several more, but it did not matter. He just could not maneuver enough to make good use of them. <--That is what I am talking about this card doing.
3-1
Rd 5
ID
3-1-1
Top 8 versus Ryan
-g1 Ryan played Bayou into Top. Then Swamp. Uhh, Nic Fit? wtf. I revoked the Divining Top. He stormed me out the next turn. Pfffft.
-g2 I play Plains on my turn. He Gitaxian Probes me to see little Thalia and Enlightened Tutor. Guys, tutor is so strong here. I got to see his play before deciding on what to fetch. If he had hit me with Cabal Therapy I could simply put my hate card on top. Well, he made 10 goblins. I was going to get Chalice, but I went for Canonist instead because of this. I did some math, and on my turn I played Thalia. Attacks me to 11 (9 remaining). I play Mystic for Batterskull. Attacks me to 4 (7 remaining). Cast Canonist. He attacks, I vial in the big ram and block three more to stabilize. I added Rest in Peace and Chalice to take the game with more good stuff in hand.
-g3 Ryan mulls to 5 and blind Therapies me to get 2x Thalia. Crap. I cast mother of Runes and was left really with only Big Thalia for disruption. Ryan had crap too though, and I topdecked Canonist on turn 2. My turn 3 Big Thalia followed by Mystic went essentially unanswered. I do not think Big Thalia is all that strong against storm, actually. But she slowed him down on lands when whatever she replaced would not have. At any rate, I put a weapon on Canonist the turn he drew into Massacre, but I did not even have any Plains.
4-1-1
Top 4 split. Thank God. It was past 1 AM.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar was a serious bitch in the few games I got her to stick.
You are playing her or you are doing it wrong.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I tried new Thalia in Imperial (a list fairly similar to Vandalize's) at an event yesterday and did way worse than I've ever done at a real event. I got fairly unlucky a few times, there were a lot of games where I was one card away from winning, or just needed to be on the play. I'm not going to conclude that THC is unplayable, but I don't think she's so powerful that not including her is ridiculous. In almost every situation I had her Mirran Crusader would have been about as good or better. I didn't play a 4th Recruiter (which I missed) or a Batterskull (which I didn't really.)
Eldrazi r1 W
g1 I won the die roll and Vial -> Mom -> Magus. Decent chance I lose the same game on the draw. (Why I hate this matchup.)
g2 Can't beat T1 Jitte t2 TKS.
g3 I keep 2 Wasteland 1 Port on the play, draw a 3rd Wasteland and just Wasteland him every turn until I draw into real plays. Eventually trade THC + SfM for a TKS. Second THC gets Dismembered. Recruiter for a Magus after he's spent a ton of Dismembers already and doesn't have a board.
Grixis Delver L
g1 I keep a fair Mom/Thalia/Magus hand but get tempo'd out by a fast DRS/double Delver start
g2 He has Needle for my Vial but I still have a bunch of flyers for a better clock and Magus him out.
g3 Cabal Therapies wreck my otherwise good hand + he plays a fast Gurmag. I have Mom and THC but it doesn't look so powerful vs Gurmag, and I can't even block because I am pretty sure he has Bolt. (He does.) Draw a Fiendslayer Paladin so he now can't attack with Gurmag anymore, but eventually die to Delvers.
12-Post W
g1 He SnTs a Titan, I put in Mangara and have a Karakas in play. Don't end up needing to use Karakas lock because I draw a Recruiter and just play Magus through Cavern.
g2 He draws mostly non-post lands and removal. STPs my first Magus, SnTs a Titan and I have another Magus. Flickerwisp + Sofi kills him quickly.
Grixis Delver L
g1 I saw this guy playing my friend earlier and I thought he was on BUG - unfortunately not. He has a fast double Delver + DRS start. I have Fiend Hunter for one Delver, get a Jitte online, but my life total is exactly low enough that he can win with a Delver hit and 2 DRS activations. I would have won on the play or if I had drawn into Flickerwisp or Magus.
g2 Mull to 6, one land and a Vial/Mom/high curve. He finds his Needle after a few turns and I go like 7 turns without drawing a land. I most likely would have won if he didn't find his one Needle.
Miracles L
One of my friends I came to the event with. I have a very good lifetime record against him.
g1 I have a decent start, he Miracles his Entreat (with enough mana for 2) and I poker face activate Vial on 3 hoping he won't think too much about it - have a Magus and he can't cast the Entreat. Kill him soon after.
g2 Wear/Tears my t1 Vial, I have lots of legends but no Karakas and get attritioned out.
g3 No Vial, get a Sword of War and Peace + THC in play, do a ton of damage in one hit, but he Terminuses next turn and gets a Jace out. Don't draw a Vial or enough land to play multiple cards a turn and can't come back from resolved Jace.
Maverick L
g1 I have new Thalia and it slows him down a turn but he still casts KotR and I don't have or draw into any way to deal with it.
g2 Similar game. I used my STPs early on DRS, hoping to slow him down + cut him off mana/colors before a Magus. Didn't work, drew THC which was bad again vs his board.
So vs Eldrazi - THC was a good body and a fine effect, but probably not better than Mirran Crusader. He was playing Karakas which added downside potential. Unlike Mirran Crusader it gets Dismembered and doesn't trade for TKS on its own. I had to leave myself open to getting destroyed by a Dismember when I blocked a TKS with SFM + THC.
Vs Grixis Delver - THC was too slow for the effect to ever matter. Mirran Crusader would have been much better at blocking an early Gurmag Angler. Both are 3 drops that can get bolted, so not really fantastic, especially on the draw.
Vs 12-Post - THC was probably equivalent to Mirran Crusader, slowing them down is nice but Crusader + equipment is a generally better clock. Plus Crusader attacks past Titan. (This matchup plays out a lot differently for Imperial Taxes than Mono-W, and you care less about disruption/clock since a resolved Magus basically wins.)
Vs Miracles - I never actually had a THC + Karakas game. It was fine, probably marginally better than Mirran Crusader, but Crusader + SoWaP would have been better than THC + SoWaP.
Vs Maverick - THC was pretty terrible. These games go long and you want something with evasion, not something that can be blocked by anything in their deck + bounced by their Karakas.
I might try it a little more at my local tonight + also try lowering the deck's curve a bit. I'm already weaker to fast decks. I only played 2 Paths in my SB and regretted it since I didn't see a lot vs Delver. I might try 4 Paths in the SB.
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