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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #7841

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?
    In most cases I would, unless its a horrendous matchup and there is a lot on the line. For something like a classic, I couldn't care less and would let them play/draw. If I didn't for some reason, I would consider negotiating a split and playing for the trophy

  2. #7842

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?
    I've never heard of anyone doing this, what I've known my entire nerd-life career is that you "thank" them with sweet dollarz afterward.

    That said, Sam beat me. He doesn't need my money.

  3. #7843

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I didn't really care one way or another. Even if I lost Bryant, I was happy with my finish.

  4. #7844

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    This is a bit off-topic, but I wonder: if someone concedes so you make Top8 and you end up playing vs them at any point in the Top8, do you let them go first if you are the higher seed?
    I do not think so... It's a difficult and subjective topic, and either position would be defensible, but what if you think you had a great matchup and would have been favored vs the person who conceded? The opponent was also able to benefit from an hour-long break prior to the top 8 with the concession. I could imagine scenarios where you feel like the person is doing you a significant favor and you otherwise would have been crushed out of the top 8 so your opponent could lock up the best seed, and in those cases it's a nice karma gesture to do that, but in general I do not think it should be the expectation or norm.

  5. #7845

    Tips for Beating Aluren

    Hello All,

    There has been quite an uptick in Aluren players at my LGS. It seems like a very beatable matchup, but I think I have a losing record because I simply don't know how best to time my disruption against them. I tend to throw out Revoker on Cavern Harpy and Prelate on 4 as my primary disruption (try to keep them off four mana.) I am mostly curious about the timing and intricacies of disrupting them during the combo with Revoker/Canonist/Recruiter. Specifically, if I have a revoker in hand, when is the best time to flash it in once aluren drops: as soon as I see the harpy? When it tries to bounce something? What are the pitfalls here? Also, if I have a recruiter in hand, what is the timing with fetching canonist or revoker and flashing them in? There are so many triggers and I want to find the right times to throw my disruption at them.

    Thanks for the help!

  6. #7846
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I went 11-2-2 at the Open, which put me at 11th. Lost an unfortunate on-camera win and in for t8.

    My list:

    Creatures (26)

    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Flickerwisp
    2 Magus of the Moon
    1 Mirran Crusader
    4 Mother of Runes
    1 Palace Jailer
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Vryn Wingmare
    1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    Lands (23)

    3 Plains
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Cavern of Souls
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Plateau
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    3 Karakas

    Spells (11)

    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Sideboard
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Sword of War and Peace
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Cunning Sparkmage
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Rest in Peace
    2 Path to Exile
    1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
    1 Council's Judgment

    I'll probably play something close to this list in Vegas, maybe switch a sideboard card or two, but the main felt really good. I was almost going to play a black splash with Kambal instead, but my friend Sam (very good Angel Stompy player, he made t8) managed to convince me out of it. I am still not sure whether he did this in good faith or because he knows how bad it would be for him if I convinced a bunch of DnT players to play Kambal and Dark Confidant. In any case, the red splash is probably just better. We all need easy wins once in a while, especially over a 15 round tournament.

    I would say every single one-of creature I played was key to me winning some game or another, except for the Faerie Macabre in the board. I wasn't playing and could have used a Containment Priest r15, but beat Elves twice without it. In both cases, the red splash was key. I mostly dodged matchups where Mono-W is a little more favored (UR Delver, Burn) though I also didn't get to play any Land-based combo matches (Lands, Depths, 12-Post) that are super easy wins with this kinda list. 6/9 decks I played d1 were Stoneforge decks, which is pretty abnormal. I went 2-0, 2-0, 2-0 vs Miracles - honestly there are almost no t1 plays I want to see more than Island Sensei's Diving Top and I even came with a board that had more than I usually have for Miracles. (P/K, CJ, SP, Needle, Relic of Progen, SoWaP)

    Pia/Kiran's late game was relevant pretty frequently and Palace Jailer was great too. I'm a real convert on the Palace Jailer in the main, he's like our JTMS. I sided in Pia/Kiran in vs all decks that don't play Wasteland + aren't fast combo.

    Day 1:

    1. 4C Delver/Stoneblade (2-1) (1-0)

    G1 I STP his first two Delvers, but he follows up with two DRS, SfM for SolaS. I Revoker his DRS even though I suspect he has a Jitte in hand, hoping to constrain his mana and find a way to get out of the situation before he can get a creature voltroned. I don't - he gets Jitte+Solas online, but I eventually draw into a Flickerwisp to reset the counters. I have my own Jitte + Crusader, so I just need him to not have something for a turn, since he doesn't have enough mana to suit up a creature with both. Unfortunately he has a Council's Judgment for my Jitte + Lingering Souls, and I just can't come back.

    G2 I T3 Cavern Magus.

    G3 Wasteland him and he's stuck on one land, then I T4 Cavern Magus.


    2. Esper Stoneblade (1-1-1) (1-0-1)

    G1 I'm on the play, I have Sfm/Thalia/Magus. He does have some basics / still kills the Magus / can't come back from my fast start.

    G2 I don't remember how I lost, I think he Thoughtseized me a bunch and played a TNN, something like that

    G3 I kept a one land Aether Vial hand and he had a Pithing Needle immediately - I draw a second land on t2 but not a third for a while. Tick my Vial to 4 and have Council's Judgment/Pia+Kiran/Karakas, so as soon as I drew a 3rd land I was going to pull ahead pretty fast. He plays a 4 mana Sorin and pumps out tokens slowly. Eventually I Recruitered for Relic Warder to take the Needle and unlock Vial and have Pia+Kiran/Vial/Karakas + Bskull + Sofi + other random creatures on board, and he just has some Lingering Souls tokens, since I killed Sorin and the Lili he found too.

    We went to time and he wouldn't scoop because he claimed he had outs but realistically I was 95% to win from that board state, it was just going to take 5-6 turns to out-token him.

    3. 3c Aluren w/ Shocklands (2-0) (2-0-1)

    G1 I Magus him t3 looks like he's playing a Delver deck with no basics?

    G2 T3 he Shardless Agents and I see an Aluren. Yikes, okay, didn't board for Aluren. Still have a lot of pressure on him, eventually he has to to Deluge and goes to 1 life, but now has a few fliers and I have no board. Draw into Mirran Crusader / Sofi, which does greater than 0 damage, so I was good.

    4. UW Stoneblade (0-2) (2-1-1)

    G1 Have a double Vial opening hand and draw another, don't draw much action and he gets TNN+Jitte online

    G2 He has triple STP+Path and I don't draw too many creatures.

    5. Maverick (2-0) (3-1-1)

    G1 He has a t2 Sylvan Library that he's using pretty aggressively and Sfm/Jitte comes out, but I have a live Vial. I get a Bskull in play, he attacks with a Jitte'd SfM that he gives pro-Black so it won't run into my Bskull - I activate Vial and Revoker it so he can't use its counters after the attack. Then I Palace Jailer his tapped Mom next turn and win pretty easily off the card advantage.

    G2 Path his early KotR, have a Cunning Sparkmage for his Dryad Arbor, Palace Jailer again.

    6. DNT (2-0) (4-1-1)

    G1 I had an awkward hand with double cavern but had double SfM, and had sat near this guy earlier so I knew he was DnT. I get the Jitte out but don't equip it for a while because he keeps awkwardly holding up with mana and not Porting me. Eventually he's forced to use his STP, but only has one and I get Jitte online.

    G2 I fall behind pretty early and he has a huge board with Bskull, there's an equipped Jitte that's been Revokered by me, he has a Revoker on Mom but awkwardly has the only Mom left in play + he has a Gideon and a few tokens. At one point he activates Gideon as a creature for some huge alpha attack, I STP it and he tries to bounce it with Karakas, but no, that flavor fail results in him with 5 more life. I keep taking Bskull hits and go down to 2 life, but can Palace Jailer the Germ token and hopefully topdeck as the monarch. I have a bunch of live Vials - he bounces and replays Bskull, with Vials on 3 and 2 I can Recruiter + Relic Warder at instant speed to prevent him from hitting with the Skull or gaining any Jitte counters. Win safely off the massive card advantage from that point.

    7. Miracles (2-0) (5-1-1)

    G1 Keep a hand off Mom Thalia and have the pleasure of drawing t1 Vial for my t1 draw. Cast a Jitte, equip Thalia w/ Karakas backup and Vial on 2, he activates Top for Terminus, I bounce Thalia and Mom gets tucked. He then Brainstorms, I activate Vial for Spirit of the Lab for the blowout. Next turn, still a little tilted from the Spirit wrecking, he Forces my Cavern'd Palace Jailer and scoops.

    G2 He plays Volc and mainphase Brainstorms, pretty clear sign of desperation. I Wasteland his Volc and it turns out he didn't find his second land. I have Thalia/Wingmare and Port, and although he draws a few land eventually, he never has the mana to do something like Brainstorm/Terminus.

    8. DnT (2-0) (6-1-1)

    G1 We both have double Vials, but I'm on the play and hit 3 first / use a bunch of Flickerwisp tricks to prevent him from ever hitting 3 with the Vials, and his only 2 is Thalia, which isn't doing much. Eventually Palace Jailer him.

    G2 Neither player has early Vials, but we both draw into them. He SfM's an early Bskull, I Revoker naming Jitte, assuming he actually had Jitte in hand, then just Flickerwisp his Germ token / keep him off double white, which prevents him from casting the Gideon stuck in his hand. Win with Fwisp beats.

    9. 4c Control (2-1) (7-1-1)

    G1 I Sfm a Sofi which gets Thoughtseized, I have an okay start with Thalia and some other pressure, but he has a Baleful Strix and two DRS, can cast a JTMS and protect it.

    G2 I forgot what happened, I think I just manascrew him.

    G3 Prelate on 1 is racing vs 2 Snapcasters, which is a race I'm losing but one I figure I'll win eventually since I have more creatures and am probably shutting off a lot of his draws. I draw into a Revoker to trade with one of the Snapcasters, then I draw into a Recruiter, which I use to find Pia/Kiran.

    Day 2:

    10. Miracles (2-0) (8-1-1) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112736)

    G1 This was an on camera match. I had t1 Vial and after watching the match, it looked like he had FoW but no blue card. T2 I didn't Port him because he only had Volc up and I wanted to reserve my Port in case he played a Plains or Tundra - if he had, I would have been able to tap it and then Vial in a Mom safely. He didn't have a white source at all though. SfM got Sofi, then got to surprise him with a t4 main phase Vial'd Magus out of nowhere. Magus is usually mediocre against Miracles since your lands are actually many of your best cards in the matchup and I usually side them all out. But once in a while it can do something and he was playing Legendary Miracles, which has a way greedier manabase.

    He gets lucky and naturally draws into a Plains and tries to STP my Magus even though it was protected by Mom, which suggested he either had another or a Snapcaster / wasn't floating a Terminus, so I burned the Prelate that I was saving for Terminus on 1, which ended the game.

    G2 He mulled to 5, one of those cards was a Counterbalance though, so he effectively mulled to 4, especially because my hand had double Cavern. My first two plays are Mom and Spirit, they get STP'd, but then I have a Cavern'd Prelate followed by a stream of Cavern'd Flickerwisps, which can also keep him off Terminus mana.

    I knew his whole hand save one card from Counterbalance, but I wasn't going to attack with Prelate just in case that one card was a Snapcaster, even though it was fairly unlikely. I attack him with 3 Flickerwisps and he's at 7 - he manages to bounce my third Fwisp with a Venser and buy himself one more turn at 1 life. I have 4 lands including a Port, Flickerwisp, Thalia, Wingmare in hand and spend a little time trying to figure out what to do - really he's dead unless he has exactly Terminus on top, but I don't have a way to keep him off white since he found a second white source. I play the Wisp again (pointlessly over-committing) and I miss the line of Flickerwisp ->Flickerwisp ->Flickerwisp which lets one hide until his turn's over and wins past Terminus. I think I was too focused on his mana. I also kinda just wanted the game to be over / was a little restless, I think I would have seen the correct line off camera.

    11. Food Chain (1-1-1) (8-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112708)

    G1. Thalia + Double Magus vs DRS and Baleful Strix. DRS doesn't have much fuel and I think I'm probably likely to win this game pretty easily, assuming I'm playing against some BUG control thing but he uses the last piece of DRS food to cast a Food Chain, which lets him cast a large Walking Balista. Game goes long, I power through 2 Walking Balistas and 3 Abrupt Decays, but eventually he finds a 3rd Ballista to combo out.

    G2. Interesting game that has me tempo bouncing his Leovold a bunch w/ Karakas so I can pressure his mana and kill his dudes with a Flickerwisp+Sofi. He has two Baleful Strix which are going aggro, but I have a Vial on 4 and Pia/Kiran tokens which trade with them + I have Karakas too. He tries to Toxic Deluge the board for 2 - I bounce Pia/Kiran, he tries to Fatal Push, forgetting that I have an Ethersworn Canonist in play.

    G3. Game goes to time with him w/ Food Chain, 3 Griffins, DRS, me with Pia/Kiran + Karakas. I can spend a turn to kill his DRS with Pia/Kiran which means he doesn't actually have infinite beaters when his Griffins die - and I do get to make 2 more spirits a turn. We were both empty handed but I would put him at maybe 60-65% to win, purely because he would be drawing into more cantrips and would likely find a Ballista faster than I'd find Council's Judgment/Revoker/Recruiter/Relic for Food Chain. But it wasn't a sure thing. I got the sense he was a pretty good player and Food Chain is a rough matchup post-Ballista.

    12. Elves (2-0) (9-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112726)

    G1. Paired with someone who I know - he knows I'm playing WR Taxes, I know he's playing Elves. He's also a good player, which makes things worse.

    I'm on the play and keep a hand off fetch, Plains, Palace Jailer, Port, Magus, STP, something else. He mulls to 6. My plan with that hand is STP any t1 mana dude, Port him t2, Magus him t3 and hope he hasn't fetched a Forest yet. This plan only wins the game if exactly that happens, but it wins the game almost all of the time if it does, and it's not like a mull to 6 is going to have a higher EW % vs Elves.

    He read me for STP so purposely played a Nettle Sentinel off an in-hand Bayou, then Wirewood off something else, and he gets Magused out of the game.

    G2. He keeps a rough hand, I keep a hand off Ethersworn Canonist. Draw into a Vial quickly, Ethersworn forces him to fetch a Bayou for Decay. I then Recruiter for Sparkmage, which eats another Decay. He still has one Forest in play when I Magus him, but it slows him down a lot because he doesn't have another green mana producer. I start getting some Flickerwisp beats in while Flickering Recruiter. He manages to draw into GSZ for Heritage Druid, and goes for a NO'd Craterhoof, attacking for something like 23, but I can Flicker it and he doesn't have a way to get the last damage in, dies to Fwisp beats.

    13. Miracles (2-0) (10-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112737)

    G1. He's mana light, Forces a Thalia, plays a Counterbalance that doesn't do a lot, I forget the actual details but his mana just gets pressured too much for him to do much.

    G2. I have Sofi in my opener and SfM for Sowap, it gets plowed. He blind Predicts me naming Plains when I have 2 on board (so, funny enough, only had one left in the deck) and hits Arid Mesa instead. I get a Thalia in play and double Port him, don't even cast my Swords until the last turns, just keep him off doing anything relevant.

    14. Elves (2-0) (11-1-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112715)

    G1. Opponent says he's relatively new to legacy and has red sleeves, so my guess is burn, instead I see Forest into DRS and groan. However, I have my one of Spirit of the Labrinyth in my opening hand and I'm on the play. His hand was really dependent on a Glimpse, so he's sitting there doing fairly little. Draw into a Vial soon after and SFM for Jitte. He has double Wirewood, but I also draw into Revoker. I drew very well that game.

    G2. Opponent mulls to 5, I mull to 6 and keep a hand off Wasteland, Vial, STP, STP, Recruiter, Crusader. Probably winning easily if I draw a white source quickly, but I draw a Port instead and have to sit there nervously for a few turns. Eventually have a Cavern and Recruiter for Sparkmage, then draw into a white source too.

    15. Mono-Red Sneak (1-2) (11-2-2) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=112709)

    G1. I suspect he's playing some sort of Chalice/Blood Moon deck, I'd seen him at nearby tables with a Blood Moon in play, but I didn't know what else was going on in his list. He's on the play and mulls to a t1 Chalice, which is pretty big since it shuts off my Vial and I draw another. I cast Mom through Cavern and I have to take off a turn from Porting him so I can cast a Crusader and get some sort of pressure down. He uses the turn to ramp into Inferno Titan. Inferno Titan'd my Mom+Crusader duo, I protected Crusader instead of Mom to give myself the additional out of drawing Jitte next turn, since a Jitte'd Crusader could actually stop the Inferno Titan. Having thought about this more, this was wrong - I was trying to expand my total # of topdecks for next turn, but Mom being alive means I could cast a creature, give it pro-red in response to the trigger, and buy myself one extra topdeck, and the math works out better for that plan. My other good draws were Recruiter (for Jailer, immediately), then STP (since I had Flickerwisp) or naturally drawing Jailer.

    I don't know if I would have definitely won this game on the play (it's possible I draw into air and he just Titans me a few turns later) but with a Vial and no break in mana denial it probably would have been close at least. The die roll matters so much vs these Chalice combo decks.

    G2. Have a Vial, Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Relic Warder to eat a Lotus Petal. I have one turn with a Vial on 3 where I can throw out a Flickerwisp EOT to increase my clock + have Vial on 4 for Palace Jailer, or just keep Flickerwisp open to deal with some weird situation and I go for that, because I don't know what the hell kinda sideboard cards he's gonna have. He Through the Breeches Emrakul, which is fine because I have the Flickerwisp + Karakas next turn, though Palace Jailer would have also done it and maybe been more entertaining.

    G3. I mull a Sfm/Fwisp/Fwisp/4 land hand because it has no mana disruption or interaction, keep a 1 land hand with Mom/Thalia/Sfm/Pithing Needle/some 3 drop, scry a Path to the bottom hoping to find the second land. He t2 ramps into Godo and gets a Batterskull. I t2 Sfm to get my own Batterskull, but he has Sudden Shock. He attacks for 7 but forgets his Godo trigger.

    I draw a Karakas and admittedly don't see the bounce Godo play because I didn't even know that card was a legend and it was the first time I've ever seen it on the field in legacy. I am not sure that's the correct play at that point regardless, since it gives him another Bskull once he draws into mana. I cast Thalia instead and I didn't expect him to actually attack with it into Thalia+Mom, but he did. At that point I feel like I'm gonna stabilize with a Mom at 1 life and might be able to draw out of it (those decks topdeck very poorly since they're so much fast mana) but he has a Sulfur Elemental.

    Watching the replay, commentators make it seem like some terrible matchup for DnT and some miracle I won g2, but that's actually wrong. It's a good matchup. They are soft to mana denial, most of their dudes get STPd or Karakas'd and they don't get to cheese out as many free wins off Chalice on 1 or Blood Moon as they do vs other decks. Generally if someone is playing stuff like Sulfur Elemental it's not because DnT is an easy matchup. Still, anyone can lose to fast combo hands.

    Anyway, I had fun and highly recommend my list as a good starting point for a WR list.
    Last edited by iatee; 04-11-2017 at 01:41 PM.

  7. #7847
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Thanks for the informative report.

  8. #7848

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    For those of you splashing red, Harsh Mentor seems insane and worth testing.

  9. #7849
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Yeah this card seems nuts. It's a hatebear that's actually very strong in the mirror, vs Miracles and vs DRS. And it's a human.

    As soon as it comes out, I'll probably start by testing one in the main and one in the board.

  10. #7850

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Super excited to do RW Taxes well as it's my favorite version and kind of dropped off since Recruiter of the Guard took away the need for Imperial Recruiter. At first I wasn't a fan of Palace Jailer but that card advantage is desperately needed sometimes. I've been working on assembling the legacy list for awhile now and was going to use one similar to yours but cut a Vryn Wingmare for Harsh Mentor. Was on the fence about Palace Jailer but you said he's our JtMS so I'll give him another shot. The lack of Containment Priest in the 75 surprised me. What would you cut for it?

  11. #7851
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quick mockup based on Iatee's build for my initial testing with harsh mentor
    RW Taxes

    Lands 23:
    4 Port
    4 Wasteland
    3 Cavern of Souls
    3 Karakas
    5 White Fetches
    3 Plains
    1 Plateau

    Non Creature Spells 11
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares (maybe should be bolt)
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    Creatures 26:
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Harsh Mentor
    1 Mirran Crusader
    3 Flickerwisp
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Magus of the Moon
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Palace Jailer

    Sideboard
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Sword of War and Peace
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Cunning Sparkmage
    1 Sudden Demise
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Leonin Relic-Warder
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Path to Exile
    1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

    Cut the mainboard wingmare and spirit for 2 harsh mentors, took his suggestion of Faerie Macabre -> Containment priest. Decided to cut Prelate in the side for a sudden demise for some of the problem matchups.

  12. #7852
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaSonic View Post
    Super excited to do RW Taxes well as it's my favorite version and kind of dropped off since Recruiter of the Guard took away the need for Imperial Recruiter. At first I wasn't a fan of Palace Jailer but that card advantage is desperately needed sometimes. I've been working on assembling the legacy list for awhile now and was going to use one similar to yours but cut a Vryn Wingmare for Harsh Mentor. Was on the fence about Palace Jailer but you said he's our JtMS so I'll give him another shot. The lack of Containment Priest in the 75 surprised me. What would you cut for it?
    Probably Relic of Progenitus.

  13. #7853

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hey Iatee,

    I really like most of the build (I used to run Imperial Taxes back in the day myself), and congrats on the results, but I have a couple questions if you wouldn't mind:
    1. Why the 3/5/1 split on plains/fetches/plateau and not a 3/4/2. Since we don't actually get anything by having a shuffle effect, why not run a second red source instead of a fifth fetch?
    2. No Gideon in the board. Why? The card is so powerful and effectively counters so much hate, I have trouble justifying not running 1 somewhere in the 75.

    Thanks for the answers!

  14. #7854

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    In what matchups is Gideon most important?

  15. #7855

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by autonom View Post
    In what matchups is Gideon most important?
    Miracles and Shardless.

  16. #7856
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk View Post
    Hey Iatee,

    I really like most of the build (I used to run Imperial Taxes back in the day myself), and congrats on the results, but I have a couple questions if you wouldn't mind:
    1. Why the 3/5/1 split on plains/fetches/plateau and not a 3/4/2. Since we don't actually get anything by having a shuffle effect, why not run a second red source instead of a fifth fetch?
    2. No Gideon in the board. Why? The card is so powerful and effectively counters so much hate, I have trouble justifying not running 1 somewhere in the 75.

    Thanks for the answers!
    1. You don't really want a Plateau in play vs a lot of legacy since it's a Wasteland magnet and you really don't want one in your opening hand. Ideally you want at least one basic in your opening hand. 8 'basic sources' already doesn't guarantee you one and you need a good reason to push that number lower. Basically - I think people want to play 2 duals because they're afraid of Wasteland, but really you should play 1 dual so you actually can play around Wasteland by starting the game with 1 or 2 basics in play. The only awkwardness I think is post-board with Pia/Kiran - you have to naturally draw a Cavern or use Vial on 4. But I try to only play that card in games that you expect to go long + they don't have Wastelands.

    2. Gideon is a strong card, but double W is tough on the manabase and the main is already very strong against the decks that Gideon is best against. The 60 is filled with uncounterable disruption for Miracles, and Shardless has a really tough time dealing with Magus. The SoWaP/Pithing Needle/Council's Judgments spots already provide a bunch of generically good vs Miracles/DnT effects. The 4 drop creatures I played are both kinda 'planeswalker equivalents' since they're card advantage engines - but unlike Gideon they can be Vial'd in and cast through Cavern, they don't cost 5 mana with a Thalia in play - they're better natural fits for what the deck's doing.

    So basically:
    a. Awkward fit for the deck's mana
    b. Don't need it anyway since you are naturally strong vs control decks +
    c. You have other comparable haymakers that are easier to put in play

  17. #7857

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    2. Gideon is a strong card, but double W is tough on the manabase and the main is already very strong against the decks that Gideon is best against. The 60 is filled with uncounterable disruption for Miracles, and Shardless has a really tough time dealing with Magus. The SoWaP/Pithing Needle/Council's Judgments spots already provide a bunch of generically good vs Miracles/DnT effects. The 4 drop creatures I played are both kinda 'planeswalker equivalents' since they're card advantage engines - but unlike Gideon they can be Vial'd in and cast through Cavern, they don't cost 5 mana with a Thalia in play - they're better natural fits for what the deck's doing.
    But have we tried Ajani Vengeant? Because the sickness...

  18. #7858

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @iatee
    Congrats and nice job calling the meta! Imperial seems very well-placed in the land of super-greedy mana and it still has solid game against Miracles, which remains just the best deck in Legacy.

  19. #7859

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    There have been a ton of positive finishes with D&T in the past few days, so I wrote up my thoughts on various lists.

  20. #7860
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk View Post
    But have we tried Ajani Vengeant? Because the sickness...
    Yeah, it's a pretty sick card. But like most sick cards, it's also bad.

    It's kind of a shame there aren't any pushed RW creatures in Magic, actually not very many good RW multicolored cards at all. Means they have room to print new ones though...

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